Author Topic: Powder Coating Cylinders & Head - Warping issues?  (Read 9619 times)

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Offline iron_worker

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Powder Coating Cylinders & Head - Warping issues?
« on: October 22, 2013, 12:27:22 PM »
Hey guys,

I'm going through my engine again this winter due to a small oil leak and I also was thinking about powder coating.

Anyway, I was at the machine shop talking to the machinist about surfacing my head and what not and he mentioned that he wouldn't be so sure about powder coating. He was wondering if the baking process could actually warp the bores. This is especially true if the parts are being baked with the cylinders free because the sleeves would likely shift and have to be pressed back in. I can definitely see how this could affect the bores.

I was thinking about bolting the cylinders and head as a unit together with some all-thread and washers/nuts. Do you think this would be enough to keep the sleeves in place or do you think could still be issues with warping.

I'm all ears on this one. I know others have had cylinders powder coated ... did you do it after your bores were finish machined?

Thanks,

IW

Offline Powderman

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Re: Powder Coating Cylinders & Head - Warping issues?
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2013, 12:33:12 PM »
I have not had experience with shifting cylinders. We only heat the part to 400*f for 10 minutes. If you still have concern you can lower the temp to around 375 for 20 minutes. I would however recommend on a build where machine work is to be done to do the machining or final honing after the coating to make sure sure everything is still to spec. You just have to make sure the machinist doesn't fark up your  coating when he clamps your parts down.

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Powder Coating Cylinders & Head - Warping issues?
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2013, 12:41:19 PM »
Well the machinist was saying that the baking process is way hotter than an engine would get. Which I think is only partially true. The oil temperature is likely in the 200F range but I would imagine the inside of the cylinders would be much hotter since it's directly exposed to the combustion temps.

I am guessing by your name that you are a powder coat guy?

IW

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Powder Coating Cylinders & Head - Warping issues?
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2013, 01:29:41 PM »
What is the thickness of powder coat?  Is powder coat thermally conductive or insulative.   Unless it has ceramic particles in it, I would assume insulative.

There was originally a thin paint coat for a reason using aluminized paint.  And that was to make it easy and quick for the heat to leap from the cylinder to the passing air.





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Offline iron_worker

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Re: Powder Coating Cylinders & Head - Warping issues?
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2013, 02:45:49 PM »
I don't know the thickness of the powder coat or the make-up of whatever powder they are using. I haven't even decided what shop I'm going to use. However, I really don't think the difference in thickness between paint and powder coat would make much of a difference in heat loss. The thickness is just so small.

I know other people have used powder coat. Speak now or forever hold your peace?  :P

Besides the fact that you're completely skating around the original question. lol

IW

Offline Powderman

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Re: Powder Coating Cylinders & Head - Warping issues?
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2013, 03:14:17 PM »
Yes, I do powder coating for a living. If applied properly powder is actually thinner than a paint job. Normally powder calls for a 1.5-3mil thickness (.0015"-.003"), for comparison an average new car paint thickness is in the 4-5mil range.

Offline kghost

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Re: Powder Coating Cylinders & Head - Warping issues?
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2013, 03:14:43 PM »
It will run hotter with standard powdercoat.

I tried it once
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Powder Coating Cylinders & Head - Warping issues?
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2013, 03:35:08 PM »
As Powder man said, new powders are very thin, I have a local guy that powdercoats engines and does hundreds of them, he specializes so it is worth looking into it properly first, some older powders are quite thick but there are modern powders for a number of applications... ;)

http://www.robertoscustompowder.com.au/Gallery.aspx?ID=13

Plenty of heads and barrels there....

Black as a color has heat dispersing properties regardless of whether its paint or powder...
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 03:37:04 PM by Retro Rocket »
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Powder Coating Cylinders & Head - Warping issues?
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2013, 06:07:55 PM »
I used to design power supplies, with transistors that generated a lot of heat.  Of course I had to use a heat sink to keep the transistor junction temperature in the survivable range with the airflow provided and at high elevation and high ambient temperature extremes.  This is where I had to learn the intricacies of thermal conductivity, in order to get that heat from the junction into the cooling air and survive without high failure rates.  When chosing a heat sink, an anodized aluminum heat sink performed about 40% better than one that was painted.  Extra layers of paint made it worse, even black ones.

Black is a color that radiates heat very well.  Black anodize was the best performing.  Black also absorbs heat, as well, which is something I would have been concerned about if the unit was in sunlight.

Radiators, heat sinks, and cooling fins, all have the same basic functional operation as a heat exchange mechanism.

Go ahead and ignore science if you wish.  All that matters to some is how something looks rather than functions.  I would not powder coat a heat dissipating cylinder block at the cheapest vendor available without learning about the thermal transmissivity of the finished coating, and the temperature they plan to bake at.

But, if your path is fixed, the cylinder block can withstand about 500F.  Do keep the head upright so the barrels won't fall out the top or shift their position in the block.  Allow to completely cool slowly before moving it about, and it should survive the ordeal.

Because somebody else did it, is in no way any sort of reasonable justification.  Not all human behavior is acceptable to be replicated.
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Powder Coating Cylinders & Head - Warping issues?
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2013, 06:16:07 PM »
I had my cylinders coated prior to being resleeved but that won't help you with the warping part of your question. Black then satin clear. Harley uses extensive powder coating. I woudn't hesitate to use a coater that knows what he's doing ie sleeves dropping out. I'm thinking my guy used a lower temp.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Powder Coating Cylinders & Head - Warping issues?
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2013, 06:47:31 PM »

Go ahead and ignore science if you wish.  All that matters to some is how something looks rather than functions.

Because somebody else did it, is in no way any sort of reasonable justification.

Most, if not all motorcycle manufacturers have black finished engines in their ranges, some painted, some powder coated, i'm sure they did their homework......
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Powder Coating Cylinders & Head - Warping issues?
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2013, 06:58:06 PM »

Go ahead and ignore science if you wish.  All that matters to some is how something looks rather than functions.

Because somebody else did it, is in no way any sort of reasonable justification.

Most, if not all motorcycle manufacturers have black finished engines in their ranges, some painted, some powder coated, i'm sure they did their homework......
I'm not arguing that.  The MC manufacturers do not use any old local powder coater with unknown characteristics.

There are different powder coat materials as well as processes.  Just like paint.  It ain't all the same.  Is that what you are arguing? 
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Powder Coating Cylinders & Head - Warping issues?
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2013, 07:09:07 PM »
Quote

There are different powder coat materials as well as processes.  Just like paint.  It ain't all the same.  Is that what you are arguing?

Thats exactly what I had already said....

I have a local guy that powdercoats engines and does hundreds of them, he specializes so it is worth looking into it properly first, some older powders are quite thick but there are modern powders for a number of applications... ;)

I used to test powders for Dulux in Sydney....
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Offline iron_worker

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Re: Powder Coating Cylinders & Head - Warping issues?
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2013, 06:59:34 AM »
Thanks all for your thoughts and opinions.

My idea was to clamp the head and cylinders together using some all-thread as "studs". I was hoping that would keep the sleeves from shifting around. Much the same as if the engine were under going a heat cycle while running.

IW

Offline Powderman

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Re: Powder Coating Cylinders & Head - Warping issues?
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2013, 08:28:36 AM »
I used to design power supplies, with transistors that generated a lot of heat.  Of course I had to use a heat sink to keep the transistor junction temperature in the survivable range with the airflow provided and at high elevation and high ambient temperature extremes.  This is where I had to learn the intricacies of thermal conductivity, in order to get that heat from the junction into the cooling air and survive without high failure rates.  When chosing a heat sink, an anodized aluminum heat sink performed about 40% better than one that was painted.  Extra layers of paint made it worse, even black ones.

Black is a color that radiates heat very well.  Black anodize was the best performing.  Black also absorbs heat, as well, which is something I would have been concerned about if the unit was in sunlight.

Radiators, heat sinks, and cooling fins, all have the same basic functional operation as a heat exchange mechanism.

Go ahead and ignore science if you wish.  All that matters to some is how something looks rather than functions.  I would not powder coat a heat dissipating cylinder block at the cheapest vendor available without learning about the thermal transmissivity of the finished coating, and the temperature they plan to bake at.

But, if your path is fixed, the cylinder block can withstand about 500F.  Do keep the head upright so the barrels won't fall out the top or shift their position in the block.  Allow to completely cool slowly before moving it about, and it should survive the ordeal.

Because somebody else did it, is in no way any sort of reasonable justification.  Not all human behavior is acceptable to be replicated.
2 points I will make here are, while it may reduce to a degree the dissipation of heat will it do so in a manner severe enough to cause damage? The other is, whether someone else did it or not making it a reasonable justification is true. The fact that 1000's of them have been done and the only documentation of failures due to coating are wife's tales. Harley Davidson powder coats all their motor parts, cylinders and heads.

Offline 754

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Re: Powder Coating Cylinders & Head - Warping issues?
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2013, 08:40:39 AM »
I am glad to hear powder is now thinner,used to have to clearance machined parts to fit after powder coating. Dont worry about sleeves moving, just push them back if they do.
 You think heating them to cure powder is bad, consider the UNeven heating the head and cylinder gets every time the bike is run.
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Offline PeWe

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Re: Powder Coating Cylinders & Head - Warping issues?
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2013, 09:28:30 AM »
What about ceramic coating? http://www.competitiveedgecoatings.com/files/price_sheet.pdf
Or check with the frying pan manufacturers non-stick coating, with metal particles.
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Offline lrutt

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Re: Powder Coating Cylinders & Head - Warping issues?
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2013, 12:23:44 PM »
Pray tell, how would you touch up the PC if need be....and you will need to for sure. #$%* happens.

What color? if black. good luck. Ever see a black motor after a little riding. You just can't keep a black motor looking good if you do any amount of riding. Silver is much more forgiving.

For me it would be silver paint, but if it HAD to be black, I'd still use paint for ease of touchup.
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Offline iron_worker

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Re: Powder Coating Cylinders & Head - Warping issues?
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2013, 02:27:51 PM »
I would be going with a silver color. Similar to stock. FYI

Offline Powderman

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Re: Powder Coating Cylinders & Head - Warping issues?
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2013, 05:24:31 PM »
PeWe and calj, ceramic is intended to be a thermal barrier. I would not use ceramic on heads and cylinders or anything else specifically designed to dissipate heat. Irutt, powder coating is so much more durable and chip resistant than paint that the likely hood of having to repair are minimal at best. I love the argument that paint is a better choice because it is easier to touch up when it chips. This is a good rationalization for those who know they are putting on an inferior product they know WILL fail. It is also a rationalization for those who just can't afford to have the better solution to an issue.

Offline Lostboy Steve

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Re: Powder Coating Cylinders & Head - Warping issues?
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2013, 12:59:59 PM »
PeWe and calj, ceramic is intended to be a thermal barrier. I would not use ceramic on heads and cylinders or anything else specifically designed to dissipate heat. Irutt, powder coating is so much more durable and chip resistant than paint that the likely hood of having to repair are minimal at best. I love the argument that paint is a better choice because it is easier to touch up when it chips. This is a good rationalization for those who know they are putting on an inferior product they know WILL fail. It is also a rationalization for those who just can't afford to have the better solution to an issue.

Agreed. I had my top end done with Prismatic Powders. It is a metallic gold color. Has been 2 years not a single chip. Very Nice Finish, Very Durable, No issues. I did however have all the machine work done AFTER the head and cylinders were coated at the advice of my machinist.
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Offline Lostboy Steve

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Re: Powder Coating Cylinders & Head - Warping issues?
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2013, 01:01:45 PM »
As for touching up. Prismatic (NIC industries) makes many touch up paints for their powders. Also, they can make just about any color in paint. So that is a non-issue. Any other reason to not use a superior finish?
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Offline iron_worker

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Re: Powder Coating Cylinders & Head - Warping issues?
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2013, 01:17:03 PM »
Hey guys,

I appreciate all the feedback and valuable info collected here. I'm starting to lean towards just painting it again. I know it's unlikely that I would warp the bores but I've spent enough cash on this project already and I think I should probably be saving instead.  ::)

This time around I will try baking the paint which I did not do the first time. Hopefully that gives me a bit more durability.

IW