Topic: Noblehops makes a 400F pretty for his wife

[Stev-o]

That looks brilliant. Great job.

+1

[MotorFist]

Magnificent!

[sanxa_]

The switch wires loop to the right of the frame over the top  and down into the sleeve.  The green ground does not go to the carb.  The harness does not go over the frame but under.  If I ever get out to the shop I'll take some photos...Larry

Maybe I'm missing something that was already stated, but could somebody help me out with a picture or description of where this wire should be grounded? I've been searching and reading through all sorts of threads and sites with no luck. I'd be very grateful -

[NobleHops]

The switch wires loop to the right of the frame over the top  and down into the sleeve.  The green ground does not go to the carb.  The harness does not go over the frame but under.  If I ever get out to the shop I'll take some photos...Larry

Maybe I'm missing something that was already stated, but could somebody help me out with a picture or description of where this wire should be grounded? I've been searching and reading through all sorts of threads and sites with no luck. I'd be very grateful -

Front right bolt on top of the battery box, just behind the tank. That's what I concluded. Sorry I don't seem to have a pic.

[sanxa_]

The switch wires loop to the right of the frame over the top  and down into the sleeve.  The green ground does not go to the carb.  The harness does not go over the frame but under.  If I ever get out to the shop I'll take some photos...Larry

Maybe I'm missing something that was already stated, but could somebody help me out with a picture or description of where this wire should be grounded? I've been searching and reading through all sorts of threads and sites with no luck. I'd be very grateful -

Front right bolt on top of the battery box, just behind the tank. That's what I concluded. Sorry I don't seem to have a pic.

That's exactly what I needed, thanks a lot. That 400 of yours turned out really great by the way

[NobleHops]

Ooooooooo-Kay lads, I'm back. Life has been kind-of amazing for the last 5 months, all good. One big piece of my news is that we moved here to Arizona in late June, bought a house and we've been pretty flat-out since then getting settled, doing projects, finding our way around. But with the dust settled, I'm back to fettling my 400 some more, as it was about 7/8 done when I had to put it down in June.

So it's time for an update to this thread, and a question or two about something that is kicking my ass.

More...

[NobleHops]

Alrighty. first some fun updates.

So I connected with a great group here in Tucson, an un-club of vintage enthusiasts that meets every either week. The local Rotary club approached the...unclub and asked if we'd like to bring a passel of motorcycles to their annual car show? No judging, just a static display so the motorheads enjoying the cars could have a change of pace. So I volunteered my two bikes, loaded them up and rolled them down to the school where the event is held. This being the first time I had shown my bikes I was not sure what to expect but the response was really great, people LOVED all the bikes we had, including mine, and it was great fun and great group of guys.







So that was great fun but of course I was staring at the ratty headlight rim and a few unfinished odds and ends on the bike and so it renewed my desire to get it 100% buttoned up. Note that at this point I still had not ridden it.

Finally drug it out for a maiden voyage and got as far as second gear. More shifting problems. @!#$.

So back on the lift it went and I mowed through a bunch of mini projects.

Installed the NOS headlight rim and new headlight.



Wrestled the fender stays onto the front fender and fork:



Drilled the centerstand stop my friend James fabbed up for me and installed a spare bumper into it. Can't fathom why the repro exhaust fits so differently than stock, but it does. This was necessary to keep the centerstand from riding on the chain.



Got the gas cap and lock sorted out back in California:



Cleaned-up and installed an alternator harness that had the grommet I was missing.



Masked up the gauges for repair, loosened the damaged trim ring just enough to rotate it so the damage won't be visible, got them ready for a little body filler and paint.



more...

[NobleHops]

Next up was the shifting, and so I drug out my spare shifter and trans, took it apart again and started minutely comparing parts. And lo and behold, the long shofter arm was very slightly twisted and bent. Impossible to detect holding it in your hands, but side by side it was obvious, and it was binding just enough on the other shifter parts to not reset smoothly between shifts. I replaced it with the spare part and finally that was that.



Took myself for a test ride around the block and it shifted fine, all was well.

In a classic case of "while I'm back in there" I also installed a Factory Pro shifter idler arm, which claims to "eliminate missed shifts forever". We'll see about that, I haven't had a chance to ride it with that part installed, that just went in today. (it's installed in this pic, I'm holding the stock one)



So feeling pretty swank about all that, I decided it was time for a real shakedown ride, put my gear on and took it down the road to run an errand. Nervy business as you can recall from your own maiden voyages.

Recall that the top end had been refreshed by the douc^H^H^H^GUY that sold me the bike, and so it's a complete unknown at this point, but it has new tight rings that need breaking in, and it feels like it. It's a little reluctant to rev, and it seems to be pretty hot, and it's noisy as hell as I'm warming it up. I adjust the cam chain and that quiets it down a lot. No more stalling, out on the road.

It ran great! The engine as I said seemed a little reluctant to rev but that seemed to improve as it was run. The shifting was a little notchy, but again, all kind of parts that hadn't been acquainted in a while. I was feeling pretty good about it all right up until my left foot kept slipping off the footpeg, because it (and my boot) were covered with oil. @#$%

SO the errand was aborted and we did about 20 miles total getting back home, with me watching the oil pressure light like a hawk. No problems. It only lost a cup or so of oil, just enough to make a mess of the bike and my foot.

Back home and back on the lift. Oil is coming from the teeny weep hole at the bottom of the alternator cover. I did a bunch of searches here and found a couple potential causes for this: Failure of the left crank seal, and oil getting past the gallery plug at the bottom. I don't see any volume nor telltales of oil in the primary alternator cavity, so I clean the gasket surface within an inch of its life, lay a bead of threebond around that rubber wire gasket, and extract the oil gallery plug.





The o-ring looks a little thin and pooched, so I consider that Prime Suspect, and dig out a replacement, install it. Put the oil back in, button it all up. For good measure I seal the gasket to the crankcase with the three-bond when I reinstall it (stupid - don't do that), put it back together, fire it up. It's leaking again.

@#$%

So I drive down to the local Ace, find a very similarly sized o-ring, but fatter, drain the oil, pull the alternator cover, destroy the gasket, remove the gallery plug and o-ring and install the new, fatter o-ring. Just for fun I put a coating of three-bond on the plug and o-ring, and it fits so tight I have to tap it into position. Lets see you leak out of THAT you mother@!#$%^%. Fired it up.



So that's where I'm at.

Suggestions about where to go from here are most welcome. I am in the home stretch and want to get this thing 100% finished. Can somebody clueful reset me on what's going on behind this cover that I don't understand? It seems like there are only two possible places for oil to exit the crankcase and into there: From the crank seal behind the rotor (looks dry) or that oil gallery plug.

What am I missing?

[thirsty 1]

Hey Nils did you find your leak yet? I was thinking you could remove the rotor and make a half moon looking plate to hold that plug in. Then run your engine and check it out that way..... I was in Santa Cruz on the 1st by the way. I was going to give you call but it was date night with the wifey.

[NobleHops]

No Matt, no progress. Posted in the main SOHC forum looking for suggestions, will get after it again later this week.

I moved! No more Santa Cruz, in Arizona.

N.

[thirsty 1]

Sorry dude not a half moon more like a crescent moon. You moved because it rains more over there?  The only thing in that area is the plug, the main seal, the starter o-ring, the neutral light contactor, oil pump,  OR the case halves. ?

[NobleHops]

Sorry dude not a half moon more like a crescent moon. You moved because it rains more over there?  The only thing in that area is the plug, the main seal, the starter o-ring, the neutral light contactor, oil pump,  OR the case halves. ?

Ya, I am in danger of overthinking this. I'm gonna fire it up without that cover and see what I see. I'll use a valve spring compressor or something on that plug to keep it from geysering on me.

N.

[NobleHops]

Ooooooo-kay, I'm back at it.

Ordered up a full set of gaskets and seals, not knowing what i might find on my easter egg hunt, tidied up the shop and got organized, and tore into the bike this afternoon.

One last look at it all purdy before I make it ugly again.



First order of business was to confirm where the source of the oil leak was once and for all, and so taking Thirsty1's suggestion, I made up a little blanking plate out of aluminum to hold that oil gallery plug in place and allow me to run the bike with that alternator cover off.



Mounted it up with some cap screws:



Fire in the hole.

Very glad I did this, now there is no doubt whatsoever about where the oil leak is coming from. Stuck a greased flywheel removal bolt in the alternator rotor, bumped it for a nanosecond with my air wrench, and the rotor was off. Should have just done this from the get-go.

How do you like the workmanship here?



Here's the back of the rotor:



Looks to me like the rotor wasn't removed, or it wouldn't have been exposed to wet case sealant. And that means the seal wasn't replaced, and likely got cockeyed when the noted bike builder and cafe´ racer Eric Maas was reassembling it.

Quick update the bottom end on the engine is built. Feel pretty good only used the manual once for the starter gear. Luckily the guy I bought it from labeled the parts bags well. Made my life so much easier. The last time I bought a bike in pieces it came with one bag of bolts...

Yeah Eric, next time use the manual.

So I pulled the engine out, and when I get back from some travel that kicks off tomorrow I will split the cases and replace all those seals and attend to any other easter eggs I find. 



So that's my update!

[DustyRags]

Woah. Been out of the loop since the summer, and now find quite a few updates! Too bad I never got a chance to come bother you down in SC- now you're gone, ah well. Enjoy the riding weather in AZ, I hear it's great!

Good luck with that engine.

[NobleHops]

Thanks Rags, much appreciated.

[Tezrhc]

Here's where it went pear-shaped.

Note to the next person that does this: If you buy a tapered roller bearing steering head kit from All Balls, they include two spacers and some terse instructions on how to see if they are needed. Here's where I messed up. I skimmed it, not thinking about where they had to be installed. See this new dust seal I am about to press bearing onto? It needs to go under that:



So I greased-up my nice new bearing:



Took out my stem driver set and drove it home:



Installed the outer races into the steering head with the press:



and then when test-fitting the steering stem I realized that yes indeed I DID need the 5mm spacer and it had to go under that dust seal. And so I inevitably destroyed my new bearing driving it back off the stem, ordered another, and sulked about that for a bit. After I got a bandaid for tonight's fresh pinch injury that is. These are the wages of not paying attention sometimes, for me.

Yes Larry I done the same thing

[Tezrhc]

One more thing, when you say Wet Sand what do you mean? An what Grit of paper??

Wet sanding is pretty neat, although a little tedious and labor intensive.

It's pretty much just what it sounds like - you use fine waterproof sandpaper in ever-ascending grits, from a low as 320 to 2500. If you're doing small parts you can just fill a 5 gallon bucket halfway with water and put it between your feet, then dip the sandpaper in water to wet it and make it soft and pliable, wet the part, and have at it with flat even strokes. Keep the paper wet and also rinse the part in the water frequently to clean/clear it. You'll feel the surface get smoother as you go, test it with your bare hand frequently. Once it feels even and smooth you go up a grade and repeat till it's smooth enough for your purposes.

You can wetsand quite a lot of things, metal, plastic, plexiglass, even glass, although if it's a glossy surface you'll have to finish with polish or paint or clearcoat to restore the finish. I've wet-sanded and repaired plastic parts on motorcycles that most people throw out, mirror backs with scuffs, valve covers on my BMWs, metal parts, and this - a really great but ugly carbon fiber hugger for my old R1100S:

Clean, but faded and funky:



Wet sanded:



Clear-coated:



These luggage brackets were wetsanded, cleaned and repainted:





These mirrors:







EDIT - one more.

This took a little gentle work with a fine file, then sanding, then wetsanding, then paint and bake.
















You can dooo eeet!

I love to see people bringing a new lease of life to their projects by doing exactly what you've done,the more effort you put into something the more satisfiying it is when it's finished.
Great job your doing,you've probably finished it by now but I'm plodding through ithis slowly.

[70CB750]

Here's where it went pear-shaped.

Note to the next person that does this: If you buy a tapered roller bearing steering head kit from All Balls, they include two spacers and some terse instructions on how to see if they are needed. Here's where I messed up. I skimmed it, not thinking about where they had to be installed. See this new dust seal I am about to press bearing onto? It needs to go under that:



So I greased-up my nice new bearing:



Took out my stem driver set and drove it home:



Installed the outer races into the steering head with the press:



and then when test-fitting the steering stem I realized that yes indeed I DID need the 5mm spacer and it had to go under that dust seal. And so I inevitably destroyed my new bearing driving it back off the stem, ordered another, and sulked about that for a bit. After I got a bandaid for tonight's fresh pinch injury that is. These are the wages of not paying attention sometimes, for me.

Yes Larry I done the same thing

Here I thought I am the only one who had to hammer bearing off the stem again

[NobleHops]

OK, Florida was nice and we had a great visit with friends, but I'm happy to be back in AZ and this motor project.

Rigged up a tire kludge to hold the engine while I work on it. The head is on foam, weight pretty evenly distributed I think. Fingers crossed.



Sump not terrible, screen had some minor stuff.




Loosened the crankcase bolts slowly, only missed one :-), couplea whacks at the rear with a rubber mallet and a teeny pry and it was open.

The two crank seals are both wonky. The one at the advancer/points end had an excess of sealant on it. Wasn't leaking, but it wasn't in there flush either.



Alternator end was the one that was leaking and really poorly installed. As prior, there was a straight line of gasket sealant splashed on the rear of the rotor, so it was either never replaced, or it was replaced but not carefully installed during one of the two or three times the PO took it apart to try and fix the transmission because he didn't want to remove the rotor.







Countershaft sprocket seal was not replaced, it had overspray from the yellow spray job that someone did around the rear wheel and sprocket.




The gears and forks on the transmission looked good, no excessive wear was on anything, and the engagement dogs also seemed OK. it felt a little gravelly though, so I pulled out the gear shafts and found this bearing shattered. 





The bearing pocket for this seems to be a bit 'smeared', hopefully the new bearing will sit in there OK.



This next bit I would really appreciate some input and opinions on. This is a quick vid of the starter gear and the primary chain. Is this amount of wear OK? I have no sense if this is excessive or not:

Have ordered a seal I don't have and a new bearing, plus some o-rings that are missing. More to come no doubt.

More shortly,

N.

[thirsty 1]

Hey nils what's happening!  What a douche bag this guy is. I'll keep it short and sweet. Primary chain - me, myself would like to see that a little more snug.  It's going to whine but they all do that - run it.  Starter sprage gear is also ok. I'm not sure if you can pry that pin from the case half but that's the thing holding the bearing from spinning so it needs to stick up a little. I'm glad you took the five minutes to make that block off plate it seems like it's saved you some troubleshooting head aches.

my half a pickle and a turkey sandwich. 

[NobleHops]

Heya Matt,

All is well, digging our first Arizona winter.

Yeah, the guy is EDIT <not important in my life>. Not getting a Christmas card.


That pin is sitting up just a skosh, I will test fit the new bearing to see if it seems anchored in place, failing that I'm going to have to resort to drilling that pin or something to try and pull it out some, I could not get any purchase on it to try and pull it out with picks or magnets, not sure what to try next. 

Thanks a ton for the suggestion on that block-off plate, that worked perfectly.

Will update more once the parts are here, once this bottom end is back together I think I am going to flip it and check out the head, replace the valve seals and lap the valves, as that is another thing the PO determined wasn't necessary during his "rebuild" of the engine.

Thank you for looking in on my thread!

[bwaller]

Wow, just goes to show that some people shouldn't own tools. I've never seen a gearbox bearing case like that. Agreed the starter gear is ok but that chain does seem very loose. I don't remember if the 400 is the same as the 500/550, but check the lower case for chain contact and if there is any replace it for sure. The bearing locating pin only needs to sit proud enough to locate the bearing, you'll see if it does. However it does look to be quite "deep." Check around under the bearing saddle for a crack(s) in case the broken bearing pushed it when the cases were tightened.

I had no idea Factory Pro made a detent arm for these bikes. I bought mini bearings and made my own to work with my homemade 550 6spd and they work very well. The original rollers wear with time and it's immediately noticeable how much a real bearing helps.

Good looking bike.

[NobleHops]

Wow, just goes to show that some people shouldn't own tools. I've never seen a gearbox bearing case like that. Agreed the starter gear is ok but that chain does seem very loose. I don't remember if the 400 is the same as the 500/550, but check the lower case for chain contact and if there is any replace it for sure. The bearing locating pin only needs to sit proud enough to locate the bearing, you'll see if it does. However it does look to be quite "deep." Check around under the bearing saddle for a crack(s) in case the broken bearing pushed it when the cases were tightened.

I had no idea Factory Pro made a detent arm for these bikes. I bought mini bearings and made my own to work with my homemade 550 6spd and they work very well. The original rollers wear with time and it's immediately noticeable how much a real bearing helps.

Good looking bike.

Many thanks man, much appreciated. I think it may be poking out just enough to locate the bearing, will check that carefully. Any idea how easy or hard that locating pin would be to remove and replace? I'm guessing it's hardened steel and press-fit, aka a giant PITA to extract. I see some quality time with my MAPP gas torch in my future.

Now I am wondering if the bearing got rotated out of position on reassembly and that's what led to the bearing shattering. Kinda makes sense. And if the flat of the bearing shoulder WAS riding on that pin (and not the locating recess), then that trans shaft was misaligned with the other by ~20 thou on one end, which could explain some of the balkiness of the transmission, in addition to the bent parts and assembly errors in the shifter assembly.

I did not see any evidence of that primary chain making contact with the case, will check it again to be certain. If I replace that then I'm replacing the cam chain too, you know, WHILE I'M THERE. Sucks.

Would be grateful if you would look in again once my parts get here in case I am about to go astray. That goes double for you Matt :-).

N.

[Stev-o]

Here's where it went pear-shaped.

Note to the next person that does this: If you buy a tapered roller bearing steering head kit from All Balls, they include two spacers and some terse instructions on how to see if they are needed. Here's where I messed up. I skimmed it, not thinking about where they had to be installed. See this new dust seal I am about to press bearing onto? It needs to go under that:



So I greased-up my nice new bearing:



Took out my stem driver set and drove it home:



Installed the outer races into the steering head with the press:



and then when test-fitting the steering stem I realized that yes indeed I DID need the 5mm spacer and it had to go under that dust seal. And so I inevitably destroyed my new bearing driving it back off the stem, ordered another, and sulked about that for a bit. After I got a bandaid for tonight's fresh pinch injury that is. These are the wages of not paying attention sometimes, for me.

Yes Larry I done the same thing

Here I thought I am the only one who had to hammer bearing off the stem again

No, I had to do it too!  Admission is part of the 12 step program, right?

Noble, hurry up and finish this bike so we can move on to the Z1!

[NobleHops]

No, I had to do it too!  Admission is part of the 12 step program, right?

Noble, hurry up and finish this bike so we can move on to the Z1!

Man, I'm trying. That bearing is semi-obtanium, coming from Europe (DSS) so that's the hold up at the moment. I think I have all the other parts ready to roll, and the omnidexterous harisuluv has volunteered to help put the case back on with me. I'll update ASAP.