Topic: Noblehops makes a 400F pretty for his wife

[NobleHops]

OK, victory.

Pulled the footpeg, brake lever, clutch cable and adjuster cover, clutch cover, clutch basket and voila.

DPO had a spring on one of the idler arms installed incorrectly, putting way too much tension/pressure on the shifter drum assembly. Look at the spring at the base of the idler arm, upper left:



Closer:



Doesn't belong there. Belongs in front of that boss. Notice the witness marks from when it was installed correctly prior to DPO's fiddlings.



Notice also the wear on the top edge of the idler wheel at the end of that shaft from the excessive pressure from the few cycles it had post "rebuild". That long arm with the red assembly lube was also slightly bent, not sure if that was contributing or a result of having so much force applied to it. Quick press against the center of the span of that and it was straight enough, I didn't bother swapping my spare part.



Eric, one other thing - next time you reinstall a clutch, bend down one of these tabs on the locking washer so the clutch nut doesn't spin off and grenade.



Measured the clutch springs while they were out and naturally discovered that they are about 3mm under the service limit. Adding those to your tab Eric.



Tested the shifting with the spring in the proper position and it's working much better, although it has a tendency to catch false neutrals between 4th and 5th, but that could simply be because it's on the lift and not spinning nor under power. Not going to worry about that till it's back on the road. Put it all back together, put some oil in it and held my breath - yes the kickstarter shaft seal survived yet another installing-over, and everything is oil tight, including the shifter shaft seal I replaced in November.  Moving on.

THANK YOU to all for the suggestions and whatnot, including my "Thirsty" pal Matt.

[thirsty 1]

Excellent News!!!
Cheers!

[camelman]

Good news, although I wonder if it would have been noticeable in a running engine. I think you are missing a large flat washer that holds the pins in place  on that indexing assembly. It looked like was there in the first pic.

[camelman]

Actually, before you button it back up, take a look at the pics at the bottom of this page: http://www.twtex.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67775   I haven't been into one of these engines in a while, but I don't think the bearing retainer plate that bolts onto the case left of the indexer looks the same in the two pics.  I don't know if it would interfere with shifting, but I'd investigate it if it was my bike.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but maybe you can try out my side-pooling oil trick.

Regards,
Camelman

[NobleHops]

Good news, although I wonder if it would have been noticeable in a running engine. I think you are missing a large flat washer that holds the pins in place  on that indexing assembly. It looked like was there in the first pic.

Thanks dude, I took that large round cup washer off to watch the indexer do it's thing, easier to see how things were working with it off. It's back on there, all is well.

[NobleHops]

Actually, before you button it back up, take a look at the pics at the bottom of this page: http://www.twtex.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67775   I haven't been into one of these engines in a while, but I don't think the bearing retainer plate that bolts onto the case left of the indexer looks the same in the two pics.  I don't know if it would interfere with shifting, but I'd investigate it if it was my bike.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but maybe you can try out my side-pooling oil trick.

Regards,
Camelman

I cribbed that photo to be certain I understood you. Do you mean this little assembly to the left of the indexer?



Here's a shot of mine. Looks the same to me, or do I misunderstand what you're referring to?



Appreciate your input.

EDIT: I think I see what you're looking at - it looks like one of these to is supposed to be bent to capture that bolt in place and prevent it from turning. Here's the pair from my spare trans and shifter.



Sharp eyes, but it actually looks like mine is bent up properly to capture the bolt head, and the example photo is not.

[NobleHops]

Good news, although I wonder if it would have been noticeable in a running engine.

It was night and day after I moved the spring to the correct position. It might have worked, or the spring might've worn and approximated the proper tension, but i doubt it. That spring is pretty stout.

[2strokeTrush]

Glad to see you got it working,  Hate that you got sorta run around town on your engine info though

[camelman]

Glad it's nothing.  Just wanted to share my thoughts in case there was something there.  So, I had a low-ish VIN first year 400f in varnish blue, original tires, original chain, etc. that I sold to a guy on this forum a while back.  I wish I still had it since it was such a great survivor.  It was a complete wreck when I got it, but I got it running before I sold it...kinda wish I didn't!  Your thread here is making me want to get another now.

Keep up the good work.

Regards,
Camelman

[NobleHops]

Glad it's nothing.

This made me laugh. Eric Mass, aka MasseyRacer on this site (and many others) spent a month or more trying to figure out what he did wrong, enlisted you to look at it three months later too. Neither of you figured it out (no offense). It was installed wrong, putting way too much pressure on the shifter indexer. It would not shift without a lot of pressure and repeated tries. Eric knew it was #$%*ed up, gave up trying to fix it. The excessive force required to shift it bent the upper arm from the shifter shaft and also started to wear the roller on the idler arm. The shifter shaft seal got trashed due to the repeated removals and reinstallation of the shifter shaft I think it's safe to assume.

Then he played dumb when I asked about it, which did not help me figure out what was wrong. He obviously knew what was wrong.

This guy is a friend of yours? Like, you trust him?

[camelman]

Yep, I know Eric.  Decent guy all in all, but I don't want to comment on any of this.  I only weighed in to try to help you out since I felt a little responsible having previously looked at that shifter.  I've rebuilt quite a few of those engines (similar in design to a few other CBs too), and never got that spring out of place.  I didn't fiddle with that spring when I touched this bike last though.

No offense taken, although I will have to hear that bike run! 

Regards,
Camelman

[thirsty 1]

WELL?

[NobleHops]

WELL?

Oh dude, I have been busy, including on the bike. Let me work on it for an hour and then post an update, tonight without fail.

N.

[thirsty 1]

WELL?

Oh dude, I have been busy, including on the bike. Let me work on it for an hour and then post an update, tonight without fail.

N.

BaaahhhhhAaaaAAaa. Scandalous

[NobleHops]

BaaahhhhhAaaaAAaa. Scandalous

Scandalous! Release the hounds!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VK_nkA0UgoM#ws

[NobleHops]

So overdue for an update - there has been a lot going on.

With the transmission and shifter sorted out I put it back together and moved onto the wiring, turn signals, and ignition:

Turns out there are two different rear brake light switches in use, one like you're probably used to (background), and another that is much shorter. Looks like there were two different brake spindles used with different length arms for capturing the brake light switch spring. In any event, I had the wrong one, and so amused myself trying (and not quite failing) to make a spring for myself out of safety wire.



It works, but its a bit too long and its the wrong kind of steel and so I doubt it will last. I'm pretty sure I'll find one that works at the hardware store.

Installed the chain case, and cleaned up and installed the rear footpegs:



Installed the sprocket cover, and the front footpegs, shifter, kickstarter lever, etc. Still looking for that square grommet for the cover!



More...

[NobleHops]

Got organized to install the turnsignals front and rear, nice easy task.



Realized as I looked at it that these older Hondas grounded the turnsignals electrically directly through the bases, and as I looked at my old rear turnsignal and the one that had been powder coated, I realized it was not going to ground through the powdercoat. So I masked it off and went after the powder on the end with the wire wheel like the original one behind. Probably could have done this through the indent where the bolt secures them, but in fact the turnsignal wouldn't fit on top of the thicker powdercoat anyway.



Installed the rear turnsignals and passenger grab handle, however I broke off one of the grounding terminals on the freshly recoated turnsignal bases when I tried to install the wiring, as it was just hanging on with a bit of metal, which was a drag.



Bodged-up a ground to use for testing while I remedy that. Had installed the new taillight and bracket prior, running the wires through the channel under the fender. Surprisingly time-consuming and fiddly.



Spent some quality time with my vice, hammer, punches and pipe straightening out my old turnsignal bases in preparation for dropping them off to my local powdercoater. There's the little electrical terminal that broke off the other one. Note the metal missing :-(.

[NobleHops]

On to the carburetors. These were the very carbs that the DPO said he ultrasonically cleaned and rebuilt. Note to future buyers of motorcycles around the San Francisco Bay Area of California. Do not buy a motorcycle from Eric Maas if he has laid a finger on it, much less a tool of any kind. The first time I installed the carbs back in November I discovered that they were binding and wouldn't return. Looking more closely at them I discovered that there was a lot of play in the throttle shaft. When I punted on the idea of trying to make the bike run, I sent the rack to Harisuluv and he swapped the entire throttle shaft assembly for me as part of his service. Here's a video I took at James' shop of the old throttle shaft that Eric Maas "fixed" and mine, with the addition of the part that James gave me.

400F carb throttle shaft AFU

Thanks again James.

Installed the carbs which was made a lot more pleasant with the newly softened rubber bits I had reconditioned in the wintergreen brew. Scratched my head for a few minutes about how to get the plenum to stretch over the exit flange of the airbox, then removed the air filter, reached in with one hand and pulled back on the lip of the plenum while I tightened the screw to the clamp with the other. Note to the next person that does this: Maybe soften the plenum up with a heat gun and then wedge a few same-sized spacers in there to widen it back up just 3/8 of an inch and let it cool like that. I'll do that next time.



Installed the throttle cables and realized that they are too long for the lower '75 bars that Eric Maas installed, and so mine are run in front of the headlight bracket for now, and will likely have to be replaced.



At this point I figured it was high time to move on to something Eric hadn't touched, just for a break from all the fun Easter Eggs I was finding. So back to the ignition.



More...


 

[NobleHops]

First-up, remind myself how to make up spark plug leads. Coil side first.

Score the outer jacket pull it off along with the insulation. Neat little block I acquired somewhere.





Lube up the jacket with a little silicone grease, pull on the rubber coil-end cap then a short length of shrink tubing.



Fold back the wire core so it lays against the insulation, then crimp the brass coil end connector securely onto it



Shrink the tubing down, pull the rubber cap down, Done. Repeat three more times:





Nice NGK resistor-type plug caps simply screw into the other end of the wire, easy peasy. Like the way they look too!

[NobleHops]

Test-fit the super-duper 1 gazillion volt coils to the frame and pondered how I was going to wire it.



Not wanting to make any changes to the stock wiring harness, I bought a kit of bullet-style wiring connectors and terminals and made up a little harness. One wire (shown) to run to the pair of switched black/white terminals on the stock harness to run to one coil's power lead, then a jumper from that coil up and over the frame to the other coil''s power lead. Then I crimped a bullet connector onto the power lead for the ignition module itself and put that into the other black/white coil power lead.



Did something similar for the two trigger wire terminals on the coils, then put the corresponding ends on the trigger wires themselves.



This ignition has a provision for making changes to the advance curve in increments of 3 degrees, by grounding or un-grounding two control wires. Default is for them both to be grounded and so I made one last little wire to ground those two, ran it down to the wiring harness ground above the airbox.



And mostly done. I need to play with the routing a tad and tidy these up, but it's all pretty good to go.



Now to time it.

[NobleHops]

OK so Honda conveniently puts timing marks on the base of the advancer shaft, indexed to a mark on the crankcase. Sight-through a little porthole on the points plate, put a wrench on the "special nut" on the end of the advancer shaft to rotate it, line the two marks up, done.



We were of course about to REMOVE all that stuff and so a couple of options were to either line it up carefully first, and then remove and install the C5 ignition, or to do it the old-fashioned way with a depth gauge on the piston of cylinder #1. I had initially lined it up, but then got jiggy testing my starter solenoid and threw that all off. Paul from C5 slightly prefers to set the timing this way, and so rather then reinstall the advancer plate I setup a runout gauge, removed the spark plugs, and kludged an extension to the gauge so it would reach down the spark plug hole to the piston crown.

Kicked the bike in gear and slowly turned the rear wheel, resetting the gauge till I was certain I had found Top Dead Center on #1.







Being a 'wasted spark" engine, the plugs of course fire every time the piston is at TDC regardless if it's the compression or exhaust stroke, so it doesn't really matter which one you time. Once that's set, it's simply a matter of loosening up the sensor wheel on the ignition module, putting power to it, and then rotating it till the LED lights. Tighten the center nut and the ignition is timed.



Done!

[Just4fun]

Nils,

Nice work as always. I had to straighten a couple of those stems to bring my stock bike back from being laid down.  Funny how they fight being straightened, bend one way and another part twists. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[NobleHops]

One little note on that last post. This is a small thing, but if you're thinking of using one of these C5 ignitions you might want to be mindful of this.

Without thinking about it too much (normal for me I'm afraid) I originally installed the C5 ignition module like this:



If you look at this closely you'll notice that I've got it rotated so the mounting screw is all the way against the edge of the slot on the lower left. This ignition can be fine-tuned just like a points ignition can by loosening the screws and rotating the plate very slightly, but I would not be able to turn it in a clockwise direction with it set to TDC in this position.

I went back and rotated the ignition module very slightly so I'd have room to adjust it in either direction and then reset the sensor wheel to TDC before I buttoned it up. Easy to do with having been indexed to TDC, harder to do later.

[NobleHops]

Nils,

Nice work as always. I had to straighten a couple of those stems to bring my stock bike back from being laid down.  Funny how they fight being straightened, bend one way and another part twists. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Haha, yes, that exactly Pat. I spent the better part of an hour banging, twisting, pressing and occasionally swearing at these, but I got them pretty straight in the end.

[thirsty 1]

OK so Honda conveniently puts timing marks on the base of the advancer shaft, indexed to a mark on the crankcase. Sight-through a little porthole on the points plate, put a wrench on the "special nut" on the end of the advancer shaft to rotate it, line the two marks up, done.



We were of course about to REMOVE all that stuff and so a couple of options were to either line it up carefully first, and then remove and install the C5 ignition, or to do it the old-fashioned way with a depth gauge on the piston of cylinder #1. I had initially lined it up, but then got jiggy testing my starter solenoid and threw that all off. Paul from C5 slightly prefers to set the timing this way, and so rather then reinstall the advancer plate I setup a runout gauge, removed the spark plugs, and kludged an extension to the gauge so it would reach down the spark plug hole to the piston crown.

Kicked the bike in gear and slowly turned the rear wheel, resetting the gauge till I was certain I had found Top Dead Center on #1.







Being a 'wasted spark" engine, the plugs of course fire every time the piston is at TDC regardless if it's the compression or exhaust stroke, so it doesn't really matter which one you time. Once that's set, it's simply a matter of loosening up the sensor wheel on the ignition module, putting power to it, and then rotating it till the LED lights. Tighten the center nut and the ignition is timed.



Done!

That's some fancy stuff you have there. NICE JOB!