Author Topic: Horrifying electrical gremlin?  (Read 6505 times)

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Offline Carver

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Horrifying electrical gremlin?
« on: November 03, 2013, 06:43:00 PM »
Alright, so the story starts like this, its a nice evening out and I leave my apartment to go hang out with the girl i'm seeing. No big deal, bike runs like a top get there with no issues everything is fine. I leave her house start riding home, by this time it's dark. Turn the headlight on go through a few stop signs stopping at each one. Pull up to my first stop light, drop it in to first, clutch in and..... the headlight cuts off and the engine dies! Hit the electic starter, Zilch. headlight switch is on, but headlight is not, turn the switch off kick it over, starts first kick. Rev the bike up and turn on the light while revving it, and it works. this happens a few more times and a couple of times i was going down at around 60 pull in the clutch and the light shuts off and the engine stops, dump the clutch and the rear wheel starts the engine again. I had to finish the home with the headlight off because whenever i would flip it to the on position it would just straight out kill the engine. pull in to my apartment complex, park, see what happens when i turn the headlight on anddd......It turns on with no issues and idles for a good minute before i kill the engine.

Any ideas? I thought it might be the starter because it cut off the headlight but then i would hear it turning over when i was at stop lights. Excess electircal draw from somewhere? Im admittedly not so good with electrics but thats all i could come up with right now.
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Offline kerryb

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Re: Horrifying electrical gremlin?
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2013, 06:52:44 PM »
I would start by checking all the grounds you can find.  Then have a look at the switch on the clutch lever, you seemed to say it died when you pulled in the clutch, maybe a short there.
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Offline Mo

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Re: Horrifying electrical gremlin?
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2013, 07:20:26 PM »
Sounds like a crap battery to me combined with a charging issue. I would start by checking the battery voltage. If low, charge it using a trickle charger and monitor it.

Since it works normally above a certain RPM, and since these bikes are known to drain power below ~5000 rpm, combined with that your bike dies at stop signs, low speed etc, battery would be first thing I checked.

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Horrifying electrical gremlin?
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2013, 08:28:24 PM »
This is a tough one... I assume the 750 K3?

Sounds like there's a loose connection somewhere that causing an intermittent failure.

In addition to what Mo and kerryb recommended, I would also check the fuse box.  I had a somewhat similar issue years back where my bike would die for no reason.  Turned out the fuse clips/clamps were getting really hot and would slightly melt the casing holding them, causing an intermittent electrical connection with the fuse. 

Good luck

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Offline Carver

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Re: Horrifying electrical gremlin?
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2013, 08:57:20 PM »
This is a tough one... I assume the 750 K3?

Sounds like there's a loose connection somewhere that causing an intermittent failure.

In addition to what Mo and kerryb recommended, I would also check the fuse box.  I had a somewhat similar issue years back where my bike would die for no reason.  Turned out the fuse clips/clamps were getting really hot and would slightly melt the casing holding them, causing an intermittent electrical connection with the fuse. 

Good luck

Yeah, its the 750. It's late so im going to check a few things out tomorrow and see what I can come up with.

Sounds like a crap battery to me combined with a charging issue. I would start by checking the battery voltage. If low, charge it using a trickle charger and monitor it.

Since it works normally above a certain RPM, and since these bikes are known to drain power below ~5000 rpm, combined with that your bike dies at stop signs, low speed etc, battery would be first thing I checked.

Ah, its similar on the 450, it doesn't use its full charge unless (if i remember right) you're above 4000 rpm with the headlight on because the old rectifier? couldn't take the full charging power. Is their a regulator rectifier mod on these like there is on the honda twins to improve charging?
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Offline MiGhost

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Re: Horrifying electrical gremlin?
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2013, 09:14:33 PM »
If the headlight on/off switch is in the same housing as the engine kill switch (right controls). It may just be a matter of corrosion, and buildup in the housing causing a short between the headlight, and kill switches when the headlight is turned on.
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Offline commando1954

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Re: Horrifying electrical gremlin?
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2013, 06:12:38 AM »
Duff battery.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Horrifying electrical gremlin?
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2013, 08:50:03 AM »
Battery depleted.

List electrical mods; bulbs, coils, etc.


Charging system methodical verification checks, CB750, CB550, CB500, CB400, and CB350.


Begin with problem verification and characterization with recorded data.
A -- Fully charge a known good battery.  Let it rest for 2 hours, off the charger, and measure the battery voltage.  (Target is 12.6-12.8V.)
B -- Start the bike and measure the battery voltage at idle, 2000, 3000, 4000, and 5000 rpm.
C -- Repeat the measurements of B with lighting off.

The above tests identify charging system success, failure, or degree of "faulty".  The success voltages are listed in the Shop manual.

D -- Assuming the above indicates faulty, do check the RECTIFIER diodes with a diode tester or ohmmeter capable of testing diodes and uses more than .7 volts to make the test(s).
Of the twelve test made in D, six must read low ohms and six must read very high ohms.

E- assuming no faults were found in D,  Measure the white and green wires disconnected from the REGULATOR.  CB750s should 6.8 ohms - ish,  CB550s/350s/ and 400s should read 4.9 ohms- ish.

F- If there are no bullet holes or road rash/divots on the alternator case, the stator is probably good.  But, you can check for yellow to yellow continuity (.35 ohms) among all the wires, and that no yellow wire has continuity to the engine case.

G- Assuming no faults found in D, E, and F, measure the disconnected terminals of the REGULATOR.  The black and white terminals should measure zero ohms (subtract meter error if there is any).  Higher than Zero ohms, indicates internal contact contamination needing cleaning and attention per shop manual.

H - Assuming D, E, F, and G have not found faults. We can verify all the of the charging system minus the regulator is functioning correctly, by using a temporary jumper to connect the disconnected white wire (normally attached to the REGULATOR) and connecting the White directly to the the battery POS terminal.  Repeat the B and C tests.  However, if at any time the battery voltage rises above 15V, stop the test.  Such an indication would prove the charging system capable of maintaining a known good battery.  If this test never achieves 15V, then there is a wire/connector issue in either the ground path leading back to the battery NEG terminal, a wiring/ connector issue withe the rectifier RED path to the battery POS terminal, or you made a mistake in D through G.

I - (not used, can be confused with L)

J -  The only parts that remain to prove or expose are the REGULATOR (in active mode) and the electrical path between the battery POS terminal and the black wire that connects to the REGULATOR.

K - Lying to and starving the regulator
The regulator can only do its job correctly if it gets a proper voltage report of true battery voltage status.  The Vreg monitors the Black wire for this status.  Measuring the voltage lost between the Battery terminals and the Vreg connections identifies problems that are not really the charging system's fault.
Two connection paths must be checked, the Battery POS terminal to the Black wire connection at the VReg, and the Battery NEG terminal to the Green wire connection to the Vreg.  A volt meter can measure these losses directly by placing a probe between the two identified points, Black path and then the green path.  The numbers are summed and the error seen by the Vreg quantified.  Anything over .5V loss is cause for concern and anything over 1V is a certain issue to be corrected.  Each connector, terminal, fuse clip, or switch in the pathway can cause voltage reporting loss.

The regulator also passes the received voltage on to to the Alternator field coil to create a magnetic field within the alternator,  The voltage level determines the strength of the magnetic field and the maximum output capability of the alternator.  Therefore, starving  the Vreg of true battery voltage leads to reduced max output capability of the alternator.

L - regulator operation/verification.
  The Vreg sends voltage to the alternator field in response to measured voltage which is battery state of charge.  Any voltage at the battery of less than 13.5V sends full black wire voltage to the alternator's white wire.  The alternator output will vary with RPM, even if "told" to produce max power by the Vreg.  If the alternator has enough RPM to overcome system load, any excess power is routed to the battery which will raise the battery voltage (slowly if depleted and rapidly if nearly full).   When the battery reaches 14.5V, the regulator reduces the voltage to the alternator, reducing output strength and preventing battery overcharge.  If the battery exceeds 14.7V, the regulator clamps the alternator field coil power to zero (0V), effective shutting off the alternator.

Because, there is electrical load from the system, an alternator that is not producing power allows the battery to deplete and the voltage falls.  The Vreg responds by turning the alternator back on in accordance with battery state/ charge level.

The Vreg state changes can be monitored/verified by observing the battery voltage state, and the White wire to the alternator field.  (Two meters are handy for this.)  The "trip" voltages can be adjusted with the adjust screw, while changing engine RPM and electrical load that the bike presents to the battery/charging system to "make" the battery reach the voltage levels need for the set trip points.  IE. with load reduced (lighting off) and the engine above 2500 RPM, a charged battery will attain 14.5 V.  Anything above that and the adjust screw needs to be backed out to keep the battery safe from harm.
The shop manual outlines bench set up mechanical adjustments that should be performed on unknown or tampered units.  These should be resolved before final trip point adjust tuning.

Note that while the system is working, the Vreg can change states rapidly before your very eyes., changing 5 times or more while you blink.  Therefore, you may have to mentally average values measured on the White wire if your selected meter doesn't do that for you.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Sprocket75

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Re: Horrifying electrical gremlin?
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2013, 09:01:39 AM »
+1 on the above from TwoTired... Has saved me countless times.
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Offline 74750k4

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Re: Horrifying electrical gremlin?
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2013, 09:40:46 AM »
It's good to check all that, but on the side of the road, an easy first check to start with, is that pesky stock fuse box. All those circuits on one fuse. Corrosion, and overheat on the holder. Heats up, opens up. Cools down, connection again. Worst case, it's all burned up! If not, move on to further troubleshooting.

Offline bjbuchanan

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Re: Horrifying electrical gremlin?
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2013, 04:17:08 PM »
Wiggle the back of your ignition switch too, known failure point. Not usually with your symptoms but a worthwhile check
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Offline kammery

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Re: Horrifying electrical gremlin?
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2013, 05:20:21 PM »
 Second the fuse box , check each one to see if any are warm to hot . Disconnect all the plugs and check for corrosion . If so then clean them and apply dielectric grease to each one . Perform a voltage drop check from Battery positive to the output wire on the rectifier . Copper wire can corrode internally and lower the output of alternator . I had this happen on CL350 I owned . Turn the fuse box over and check the solder joints also .

Offline Carver

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Re: Horrifying electrical gremlin?
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2013, 11:14:27 AM »
Alright, busted out the multimeter to check the charging system but I think I might have a different problem that I thought was the charging system. I put the battery in, kicked it over, started first kick annnnnd.....promptly died and would not start again. It reads 12.49 volts. I believe it is my ignition possibly because none of the electronics work at all when i turn the key on. I followed my ignition wire and looked at both the clips and they both look corrosion free. any suggestions on where to go from here?
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Offline heffay

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Re: Horrifying electrical gremlin?
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2013, 11:29:21 AM »
what are your charging volts and also what happens to voltage when headlight is on, how bout when you pull in the clutch?

if you take the battery to a shop they can load test it.  if it fails, buy a new battery and like many have said, your problems will probably magically disappear, only not magic.
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Offline Carver

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Re: Horrifying electrical gremlin?
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2013, 02:21:00 PM »
what are your charging volts and also what happens to voltage when headlight is on, how bout when you pull in the clutch?

if you take the battery to a shop they can load test it.  if it fails, buy a new battery and like many have said, your problems will probably magically disappear, only not magic.

12.49 volts at the battery, load tested and it was good, none of   the electric on the bike works when I turn the key. Traced the ignition wire and all the connectors are uncorroded. Trying to figure where to go from here, electric is not my strong part
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Offline LesterPiglet

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Re: Horrifying electrical gremlin?
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2013, 02:26:06 PM »
Check for loose connections in the ignition switch itself, these regularly give problems.
Wiggle the wires behind the switch with it on and see if the electrics flicker.
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Offline Kickstart

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Re: Horrifying electrical gremlin?
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2013, 03:44:42 PM »
none of   the electric on the bike works when I turn the key. Traced the ignition wire and all the connectors are uncorroded. Trying to figure where to go from here, electric is not my strong part

This might sound a little bush league, but I would leave the key turned on and start wiggling things to see if can get something to come on or flicker.  i.e., wiggle each fuse, wiggle the connector going into the keyswitch, wiggle the key in the switch, etc.  If that doesn't help, get to the wires behind the headlight and do the same thing with each connector.  This may help you hone-in on where the issue is.

Intermittent electrical problems - Fun times!   :)
- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline Carver

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Re: Horrifying electrical gremlin?
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2013, 06:05:42 PM »
none of   the electric on the bike works when I turn the key. Traced the ignition wire and all the connectors are uncorroded. Trying to figure where to go from here, electric is not my strong part

This might sound a little bush league, but I would leave the key turned on and start wiggling things to see if can get something to come on or flicker.  i.e., wiggle each fuse, wiggle the connector going into the keyswitch, wiggle the key in the switch, etc.  If that doesn't help, get to the wires behind the headlight and do the same thing with each connector.  This may help you hone-in on where the issue is.

Intermittent electrical problems - Fun times!   :)
I did a little bit of that earlier but had to work, im gunna give it a more thorough go when I get off and hopefully post the solution here
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Offline Bowswell

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Re: Horrifying electrical gremlin?
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2013, 06:39:02 PM »
The black negative battery wire is cut or corroded and current flows through the cable clucht instead of its natural path, and when the current demand is strong and you pull the clucht you cut the current return.

Offline Carver

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Re: Horrifying electrical gremlin?
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2013, 10:01:29 PM »
After a ton of vigorous tugging and pulling and wiggling.... nothing. Im going to take pictures of my electrical panel and connectors to see if maybe im missing something obvious (very likely) that you guys can catch. I love a good mystery but this is getting ridiculous.

Any suggestions while I wait for my phone to charge?
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Offline Kickstart

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Re: Horrifying electrical gremlin?
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2013, 10:15:48 PM »
Current state is your bike is completely dead (no lights come on, etc) when you turn the key switch on, correct?

Unfortunately, after all the quick checks are exhausted, I think you're now only left with the extreme methodical approach.

You need a multimeter, wiring diagram, and patience.  Start with the voltage at the battery, then work your way through the wiring diagram checking for voltage as you go... until you find the open/broken connection.

You will make a few mistakes on what wire/connector you think is what, and you'll be saying things like "this wiring diagram doesn't make any sense!" - which is why you need patience, and you need to double check everything, being very methodical.

Good luck!

Edit- also, as bowswell mentioned, check to make sure the negative is properly grounded and also make sure the frame ground has a good connection.

Edit 2 - Now that I think about it, if your bike is totally dead that actually helps you... as it's no longer an intermittent problem.  With a multimeter - check the following:
1. Voltage across the battery - just to confirm you have voltage
2. Voltage between the positive terminal and a bare metal spot on the frame/engine - just to confirm you've got a ground.
3. Voltage on each side of the main fuse (negative probe to the bike ground or negative battery terminal, and check the voltage on each side of the main fuse with the positive probe)
4. With the ignition switch on, voltage at the large black wire multi-connector behind the headlight. (Negative probe to the ground or negative battery terminal, and the positive probe shoved into that 5-way connector so it's touching the metal)

I bet you find you no longer have voltage at one of these places.

Report back your findings
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 10:51:12 PM by Kickstart »
- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline Carver

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Re: Horrifying electrical gremlin?
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2013, 12:22:18 AM »
All of those tested alright, but I could only ground the battery to my shocks, might be because of the powder coating? As for the thing to check in mu headlight, I dont know exactly what you're talking about it here
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Offline Carver

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Re: Horrifying electrical gremlin?
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2013, 12:33:35 AM »
If youre referring to the wires going in to the actual headlight those tested fine. For clarification my frame is powder coated. And the main fuse is the bottom most one correct?
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Offline Kickstart

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Re: Horrifying electrical gremlin?
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2013, 06:17:07 AM »
... but I could only ground the battery to my shocks, might be because of the powder coating?....

I don't understand... follow the negative wire from your battery - where does it go to?  I can't imagine it goes to your shocks.

Do you have both the negative battery wire to ground (frame) and the green ground wire (to the frame as well) connected to some bare metal on the bike.  If you had the bike powder coated you may need to sand off some of the paint where those two wires connect to.

Can you be more specific about "All those things tested all right"? 

Also, is the bike totally dead when you turn the key switch on? (i.e. no headlight, no blinkers, not indicator lights?)

Edit: regarding the image of the headlight wires... I believe there should be a 5-way black wire connector in there, that's where I was hoping you could check - but I don't see it in the picture.  I could be wrong (as I'm used to my bike which is a 75 750F, but it looks like your missing some wires - or that someone has hacked-up/replaced some wires).  I also noticed there are a lot of disconnected wires - were thay that way before when the bike was running?

« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 06:22:10 AM by Kickstart »
- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Horrifying electrical gremlin?
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2013, 06:25:11 AM »
If youre referring to the wires going in to the actual headlight those tested fine. For clarification my frame is powder coated. And the main fuse is the bottom most one correct?

I'm not familiar with the K3 (my F has additional fuses) - but I assume the main is on top.  Unbolt the fuse holder, turn it over and you should be able to tell by the wire colors which one is the main fuse.
http://manuals.sohc4.net/CB750K/CB750_K3-K7_WD.jpg

- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA