Author Topic: Destination Arizona  (Read 2513 times)

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Offline MoMo

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Re: Destination Arizona
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2013, 03:50:59 pm »
The average July temp is over 100??? Too darn hot.   Rarely gets to 100 here....Larry

That is one reason for the attraction to Prescott.

http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/USAZ0178

Winters can get cold at night.  But, I don't think there is ground freeze.  Still need to learn more.  But, slab on grade seems pretty common for houses.  I don't think you can do that where the ground freezes.



Quite a few houses on slab around here Lloyd, I would assume that with thick enough concrete no problem...Larry

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Destination Arizona
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2013, 06:04:03 pm »
The average July temp is over 100??? Too darn hot.   Rarely gets to 100 here....Larry

That is one reason for the attraction to Prescott.

http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/USAZ0178

Winters can get cold at night.  But, I don't think there is ground freeze.  Still need to learn more.  But, slab on grade seems pretty common for houses.  I don't think you can do that where the ground freezes.



Quite a few houses on slab around here Lloyd, I would assume that with thick enough concrete no problem...Larry

Concrete will surely crack with frost heave if water under it freezes, as it expands 9% when it does.  Maybe with insulation and in-slab heating pipes, it can survive.  Or maybe they now have a way to keep the ground under the slab dry.   Concrete is rather brittle, actually.  What makes it strong is the rebar.  It will still crack, though.

How deep is your frost line, Larry?

When I lived in Illinois, the frost line was like 3-4 feet.  All the footers for the foundation had to got down at least that far.  If you are going to dig that far, it doesn't cost much more to go down enough to make a full basement.  So, most houses have a basement.  At least, where the water table is low enough.

I had never heard of a slab floor house until I got to California.  But I understand a house with a basement is pretty rare in the south land, as well as CA.
 My wife was raised in SF.  It's funny to hear her talk of their "basement".  It was their ground level/street level house space which included their garage.
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Offline scottly

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Re: Destination Arizona
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2013, 06:23:19 pm »
Average low temps I've recorded over the last 7 days: 22.9*. Average high temp over the same time: 66.7*. Overall average temp, as measured in my 90+ year old concrete shop with lots of thermal mass and little solar gain: 50*.
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Offline Stev-o

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Re: Destination Arizona
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2013, 06:26:17 pm »
The average July temp is over 100??? Too darn hot.   Rarely gets to 100 here....Larry

That is one reason for the attraction to Prescott.

http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/USAZ0178

Winters can get cold at night.  But, I don't think there is ground freeze.  Still need to learn more.  But, slab on grade seems pretty common for houses.  I don't think you can do that where the ground freezes.



Quite a few houses on slab around here Lloyd, I would assume that with thick enough concrete no problem...Larry

+1
Nearly all new homes in this area of Texas have slabs.  And it freezes here, first frost expected next Wed.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Destination Arizona
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2013, 06:59:34 pm »
The average July temp is over 100??? Too darn hot.   Rarely gets to 100 here....Larry

That is one reason for the attraction to Prescott.

http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/USAZ0178

Winters can get cold at night.  But, I don't think there is ground freeze.  Still need to learn more.  But, slab on grade seems pretty common for houses.  I don't think you can do that where the ground freezes.



Quite a few houses on slab around here Lloyd, I would assume that with thick enough concrete no problem...Larry

+1
Nearly all new homes in this area of Texas have slabs.  And it freezes here, first frost expected next Wed.

You are missing the point.  In the north, it can go months with the temps never going above freezing, which causes the ground to freeze, cracking sidewalks, roadways, and foundations that aren't deep enough to be below the frozen ground.
Just because you get surface frost doesn't mean the ground freezes, particularly if most of the 24 hr period is well above freezing.  It's when most of the day and night is below freezing where there is danger of "frost heave" from freezing the water soaked ground.

We get frost in the winter where I live now, but the ground never freezes, as the average daily temps are well above freezing.  Above ground water pipes do have to be protected, though.

The soil temp 30 feet deep is pretty constant year round regardless of surface air temps, and averages about 50F or whatever the ground water supply has regarding temperature.

If you live in an area where the ground is very dry, freezing isn't much of a concern, because most materials have negative expansion coefficient as it cools (shrinks).  Water is an oddball, where as it freezes it expands. 
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Offline MoMo

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Re: Destination Arizona
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2013, 07:08:24 pm »
I understand what you're saying Lloyd and I think the frost line may be 3 feet. There are quite a few houses on slabs, particulary in DE and NJ, where the soil is looser.  Many of the people I know do not have basements, can't imagine that as a cellar is repository for all excess junk...Larry

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Destination Arizona
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2013, 07:24:39 pm »
I understand what you're saying Lloyd and I think the frost line may be 3 feet. There are quite a few houses on slabs, particulary in DE and NJ, where the soil is looser.  Many of the people I know do not have basements, can't imagine that as a cellar is repository for all excess junk...Larry

Well, I admit I haven't lived in the north since 1968.  Could easily have been changes in construction methods.  Back then all the houses had basements and many were configured and heated as pretty nice living spaces.  I had my workshop, train layout, etc. down in the basement.  Hauled a lot of stuff up and down the stairs.  But, when the sump pump failed it would surely flood at our house in Ill.    No desire to move back there, though.  It was a good place to be from, though. ;D ;D ;D
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Offline JeffSTL

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Re: Destination Arizona
« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2013, 07:59:58 pm »
I've owned a slab home in a neighborhood full of them built in 1953. While they are not as common as basements here in St. Louis they are around. The ground freezes solid here and daytime temps can remain below freezing for weeks with lows below zero not uncommon.

Offline MoMo

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Re: Destination Arizona
« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2013, 10:40:59 pm »
Just remembered that all the Levittown communities built post war were on cement slabs...Larry

Offline faux fiddy

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Re: Destination Arizona
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2013, 12:33:33 am »
I would also say Sedona has high concentration of nut cases, based on what I seen there - soul and spirit searchers, but that's just my biased opinion :)

Well of course, because it is a universal  power center of harmonic convergence.

Jerome has a cooler hipster feel and  its more working class hippie-biker in  artsy  defunct  mining town rather than new age flakey  nuts with healing crystals and magnets. And the lines of tourists stopping up that road down the canyon to Sedona is a buzzkill. I remember thinking how all those people just needed to be off the road and in the Kachina Doll shops where they belong.
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Destination Arizona
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2013, 01:58:43 am »
The average July temp is over 100??? Too darn hot.   Rarely gets to 100 here....Larry

But you still get the humidity in summer.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Destination Arizona
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2013, 11:40:35 am »
Just remembered that all the Levittown communities built post war were on cement slabs...Larry
My house in Milpitas is on a cement slab.  Built 1962.  They called the development area Milford Village.  It was created to serve the military station personnel at Moffet field about 10 miles away.  It wasn't the first development area for this purpose.

As you might expect, they weren't high dollar luxury homes.  But, something to entice lots of VA loan guarantees.  The homes were Eichler inspired downsized floor plans without all the glass usually incorporated in Eichler designs.  Milpitas building codes allowed a concrete slab on a footer 1 foot wide by 1 foot deep at each load bearing portion of the building frame.  They built a lot of these homes.  And a lot developed problems, including mine.  I simply didn't notice the early signs in 1975.

The west coast of California was once sedimentary ocean floor bottom which got pushed up above water, by the pacific plate getting pushed under the continental plate.  My house is located near the foot of a 500 Ft ridge, on soil that is designated alluvial.  Alluvial soil is good for many things, but stability is not it's forte.  It absorbs water readily and expands when doing so.  It also contracts when the soil drys out.  No big deal unless a weight is put on top of it.  As it drys out, it sinks in elevation and the water leaves.  When it gets wet again, it expands back to its previous height lifting what is on it some but also expanding out sideways.
We have a 4 - 6 month wet season here, and a 6 month dry season.  My unirrigated back yard will form numerous deep cracks 1/2" wide by September, and disappear completely within two weeks at start of rainy season.  This sets up a yearly swelling/contracting action of the soil under the house, each year losing about an eighth of an inch about the perimeter of the house under the load bearing walls.  After 30 years of 1/8 elevation loss yearly about the perimeter, the external walls and floor, had sunk two and a half inches, whereas the center of the house slab and support walls had not.  The ridge line of the roof had pulled apart 1/4 to 1/2 inch under the movement forces.  You could actually feel yourself walking down hill walking from center of house toward an outer wall.

How do you fix the foundation of a slab floor house?  I had several contractors give me estimates from $15000 up to $30000 1989 dollars.  Schemes from lifting the whole house and replacing the footer and 6 ft of slab about the perimeter back to proper grade.  Jacking the house, drilling and installing 25' columns of rebarred concrete, effectively placing the house on stilts buried in the ground, as well as "mud jacking", where they pump concrete under pressure into the ground through holes drilled in the slab,  to raise the soil and house above it.  I've seen some of these solutions applied to other houses in this area.  All required the house to be vacated during the repair process and none would guarantee that the problem would not come back!
To their credit, they did teach me that the root cause was "alluvial soil" and a foundation that did not go deep enough to reach the stable soil under it.  The alluvial soil at my building site is about 2 ft deep, meaning the required "footer" was about a foot away from reasonable stability.  I wondered why the local building codes allowed this flawed construction scheme to proliferate.  I speculate that the permit and inspection fees weren't affected by this oversight.

I tell you this because it proves that the existence of slab floor houses built in your area, does not necessarily mean they are structurally stable.  Personally, I would not trust one in a frost heave area without knowing by what mechanism they can resist the forces of nature.  So I ask, how did they keep the slab floors and foundation stable for those houses, or did they just let the home buyers fend for themselves?



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Offline JeffSTL

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Re: Destination Arizona
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2013, 12:24:12 pm »
I can only assume they were constructed with proper footings. I bought mine 48 years after construction and no problems, nor have I heard of any of the others having trouble.

Here is a little blog about the neighborhood-http://modernridgewood.blogspot.com/2008/11/welcome.html

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Destination Arizona
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2013, 12:29:55 pm »
Just remembered that all the Levittown communities built post war were on cement slabs...Larry
My house in Milpitas is on a cement slab.  Built 1962.  They called the development area Milford Village.  It was created to serve the military station personnel at Moffet field about 10 miles away.  It wasn't the first development area for this purpose.

As you might expect, they weren't high dollar luxury homes.  But, something to entice lots of VA loan guarantees.  The homes were Eichler inspired downsized floor plans without all the glass usually incorporated in Eichler designs.  Milpitas building codes allowed a concrete slab on a footer 1 foot wide by 1 foot deep at each load bearing portion of the building frame.  They built a lot of these homes.  And a lot developed problems, including mine.  I simply didn't notice the early signs in 1975.

The west coast of California was once sedimentary ocean floor bottom which got pushed up above water, by the pacific plate getting pushed under the continental plate.  My house is located near the foot of a 500 Ft ridge, on soil that is designated alluvial.  Alluvial soil is good for many things, but stability is not it's forte.  It absorbs water readily and expands when doing so.  It also contracts when the soil drys out.  No big deal unless a weight is put on top of it.  As it drys out, it sinks in elevation and the water leaves.  When it gets wet again, it expands back to its previous height lifting what is on it some but also expanding out sideways.
We have a 4 - 6 month wet season here, and a 6 month dry season.  My unirrigated back yard will form numerous deep cracks 1/2" wide by September, and disappear completely within two weeks at start of rainy season.  This sets up a yearly swelling/contracting action of the soil under the house, each year losing about an eighth of an inch about the perimeter of the house under the load bearing walls.  After 30 years of 1/8 elevation loss yearly about the perimeter, the external walls and floor, had sunk two and a half inches, whereas the center of the house slab and support walls had not.  The ridge line of the roof had pulled apart 1/4 to 1/2 inch under the movement forces.  You could actually feel yourself walking down hill walking from center of house toward an outer wall.

How do you fix the foundation of a slab floor house?  I had several contractors give me estimates from $15000 up to $30000 1989 dollars.  Schemes from lifting the whole house and replacing the footer and 6 ft of slab about the perimeter back to proper grade.  Jacking the house, drilling and installing 25' columns of rebarred concrete, effectively placing the house on stilts buried in the ground, as well as "mud jacking", where they pump concrete under pressure into the ground through holes drilled in the slab,  to raise the soil and house above it.  I've seen some of these solutions applied to other houses in this area.  All required the house to be vacated during the repair process and none would guarantee that the problem would not come back!
To their credit, they did teach me that the root cause was "alluvial soil" and a foundation that did not go deep enough to reach the stable soil under it.  The alluvial soil at my building site is about 2 ft deep, meaning the required "footer" was about a foot away from reasonable stability.  I wondered why the local building codes allowed this flawed construction scheme to proliferate.  I speculate that the permit and inspection fees weren't affected by this oversight.

I tell you this because it proves that the existence of slab floor houses built in your area, does not necessarily mean they are structurally stable.  Personally, I would not trust one in a frost heave area without knowing by what mechanism they can resist the forces of nature.  So I ask, how did they keep the slab floors and foundation stable for those houses, or did they just let the home buyers fend for themselves?

This may sound silly but over here they build the slabs on large blocks of polystyrene, the polystyrene gives and takes up the movement leaving the slab intact, all new slab houses in my area must meet these specs. The red volcanic soil in my area is very firtile and has a high clay content, so it shrinks when dry and expands when wet.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Destination Arizona
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2013, 04:58:52 pm »
I can only assume they were constructed with proper footings.
That's exactly what I did in 1975 when I bought my house.  I won't again until I have proof of proper engineering.

Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me.

I like slab floors if they are properly engineered, btw.  Mine's been great since I fixed it.
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Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Destination Arizona
« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2013, 09:51:20 pm »
Might want to consider Sierra Vista, some drug problems but, it is common in lots of places. Close to border, military town but not too bad. Lots of local small business, couple large big box stores. Good people there overall, about 50k people. Housing is $ because of military and being a retirement area.
Police are strict in town, Sherrod have large area to cover. Tucson is 90 miles NW with great motorcycle road of 82 & 83 to I10 just south of Vail which is on outskirts of SE suburbs of Tucson
Summer is mild in low 90s and winter does see some snow but not bad. 4800 ft changes the desert vegetation and the cattle and vineyard of the grasslands in Sonoita & Elgin area is very nice

Don't write off Tucson, it is hot in summer but winter makes up for it. I lived in Tucson 3.5 yrs and like it over Phoenix. 4 YRS in S.V. I have herniated discs in neck and back and Tucson is easier to handle as cold winter weather and icy wind can make me hurt....


I am starting a motorcycle hauling business and will be able to move 6 or 7 bikes with ease. The lift is capable of handling 800 pound bikes with 30" wide doorway. My liability coverage is 100k so, I don't want to exceed that. Weight is not as much of a concern. I can make you a good deal if timing is right...

David M
David- back in the desert SW!