Author Topic: Aluminum vs. Stainless Steel Engine Fasteners - Redux  (Read 9252 times)

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Offline wohali

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Aluminum vs. Stainless Steel Engine Fasteners - Redux
« on: November 11, 2013, 12:32:49 am »
There's a bunch of older threads on this board dedicated to the question: what should I use to replace the horrible original fasteners for the engine covers?

I decided it was time to do some math and metallurgical research to try and get a concrete answer, and get some comments from the old timers on the board.

First off: I bought some 8.8 black oxide coated fasteners from Canadian Tire to redo all the covers on Bessie (1978 CB750F3). I rode her 2 years ago in the Rally, she got rained on, washed, then parked.

The oxide heads rusted badly - corrosion from the environment to the fastener. If I have time I'll post a photo, but the result is that I'm probably going to have to touch-up paint sections of the case and covers just to get it off.

The fasteners themselves did not stick, thanks to copious amounts of copper anti-seize that I applied to the threads.



So that leaves a choice: what now? Aluminum or Stainless Steel fasteners?

Here are the common arguments that get made for both, and my mathematical analysis.

Arguments for Stainless Steel (316/A4 or 304/A2/no markings, see below):
  • Honda's original fasteners were steel, so use that
  • Stainless means little-to-no corrosion from the elements
  • Anti-Seize helps prevent corrosion from fastener-to-engine-block
  • The fastener is more likely to gradually stretch instead of break suddenly

Arguments against Stainless Steel:
  • Corrosion can be a huge problem even with anti-seize, requiring tapping and rethreading
  • Can still have environmental corrosion over time, though less of a problem
  • Newer bolts with allen heads can overtorque; the engine will give first
  • Aluminum/steel is one of the worst combinations for dissimilar metal corrosion due to galvanic corrosion (Note: titanium is just as bad!)

Arguments for Aluminum (7075T6):
  • Lighter (maybe important if you're a racer)
  • Aluminum against aluminum means no fastener-to-engine-block corrosion
  • Aluminum has virtually no fastener-to-environment corrosion
  • No anti-seize required, which allows for proper torquing with a torque wrench/screwdriver

Arguments against Aluminum:
  • Junctions of similar metals can gall each other worse than dissimilar metals
  • Newer bolts with allen heads can overtorque; the engine will give first
  • 7075 aluminum can be brittle; the threaded section will break rather than elongate if the fastener fails
  • Thermal expansion may lead to fastener failure

Let's try to get to the bottom of this. First, I investigated whether the hardness of the fasteners might be a problem - that is, would torquing the fastener possibly cause damage to the engine block?

From these two articles it appears that the large majority of aluminum alloy castings are aluminum-silicon-copper alloys. This would provide a 160MPa yield, which leads to a thermal expansion coefficient of 12.2 (vs. 11.9 for 8.8 steel, 15.5 for stainless steel and 25.6 for 7075T6).

Based on these numbers, the maximum torque values recommend for our M6 and M8 fasteners to prevent stripping the threads, given thermal expansion over a 250C range (25C to 275C), is 7.2 Newton-metres for the M6 fasteners and 21.1N-m for the M8 fasteners.

Based on medical research and not-so-scientific analysis, 7.2 N-m is on the very high end of what you can apply by hand with a straight-handled screwdriver. This is good news - unless you're intentionally overtorquing these with a huge lever or torque wrench, you're unlikely to strip the threads with any of these candidate fasteners. You might want to avoid T-handles as a result.

Next I looked at lengthening of fasteners due to temperature variation. Of the 3, Al will lengthen the most given its coefficient. Over that same 250C range (that's 482F), a 2" Aluminum fastener will become a 2.006" Al fastener, or an increaes of 0.152mm. The Aluminum cast engine block will expand roughly half of that, so the delta between the two is 0.075mm. Again, science shows that you're unlikely to have problems from lengthening fasteners for any of these products.

Now the question of galling. Aluminum will gall more than steel in general, but stainless steel also galls. The rule is that the farther apart the metals are in hardness, the less galling you get. 316SS has a hardness of 215, while the cast Al alloy engine block has a hardness of 80. The 7075 fasteners have a hardness of 170. Given this result, the stainless steel fasteners are somewhat less likely to gall against our engine blocks than the aluminum fasteners, but 215-80 vs. 170-80 is not that much of a difference. If you're really nervous here, you can go with 316 stainless fasteners.

A word on the types of stainless: Pro-Bolt sells 316 fasteners. Alloy Boltz (and presumably many of the other no-name) sells lower-quality fasteners made from 304 stainless steel or "no marking" steel. While 304 SS and "no marking" SS has a lower tensile strength than 316, the differences are a couple of percentage points in commercial fasteners, and as stated above, all of these materials are way stronger than necessary in the SOHC. 316's molybdenum content gives it greater corrosion resistance against harsh environments, especially those with high chlorine content - and since our machines aren't going in the sea any time soon, this is probably not a huge concern.

Finally, a reminder - we are taking about engine cover fasteners here. The biggest stresses these encounter are thermal shock and some oil pressure against the covers. These stresses should not tax either material to the point of failure.

In short - aluminum or stainless steel are both fine choices. Stainless will get you less galling but requires anti-seize, and will elongate unlike aluminum. If you go aluminum, the lack of elongation is mostly an issue if you're getting close to the maximal stress - so be careful not to overtorque these. Use a standard screwdriver, or use a torque screwdriver and keep the torque below 5 N-m.

For me, I'll probably go Stainless Steel because they're cheaper. If I was vain and I wanted anodized purple fasteners, I'd go aluminum and I wouldn't be worried at all.

Offline brandEn

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Re: Aluminum vs. Stainless Steel Engine Fasteners - Redux
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2013, 12:44:54 am »
 Hi wohali!
As usual you have done your research and posted a good question. I am eager to hear the replies. Just as a note I used SS Allen head fasteners on my CB engines with copper anti seize. No issues yet. But.... It is easy to over torque those Allen heads. Gotta go by feel.

Offline Stev-o

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Re: Aluminum vs. Stainless Steel Engine Fasteners - Redux
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2013, 05:24:33 am »
Put me down for ss socket head screws, tightened by feel, no prob.  I get them at my local specialty store (Austin Bolt), I'll be going there today. 

Why did you use black oxide screws?
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Offline calj737

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Re: Aluminum vs. Stainless Steel Engine Fasteners - Redux
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2013, 06:57:44 am »
That's all very good info. Perhaps a bit "analysis-paralysis"?

The one fact that I would concentrate on is that for the covers where SS SHCS are used in lieu of JIS screws these covers generally only need a "snug" level of torque, hence the 6Nm-8Nm. Most people don't even have a torque wrench properly calibrated to that level of accuracy and it's been my experience that firm, hand tight is often plenty with SS fasteners.

Anti-seize is generally needed anytime aluminum is the mating metal as it is soft, and brittle. Most modern bikes have opted for hex driver heads in zinc plate. These are very soft and easily over-torqued. I'd recommend SS in just about every situation for strength on a motorcycle. Hex bolts and split washers where stress and torque are required (mounting hardware for engine/frame/suspension). But you gotta use Anti-seize...
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Offline Powderman

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Re: Aluminum vs. Stainless Steel Engine Fasteners - Redux
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2013, 08:11:31 am »
Correct me if I'm wrong but I understand SS bolts are more brittle than a standard steel bolt and are less strong than a similar grade 8 bolt. While this may not be an issue when used in a softer aluminum hole they may not be as desirable in a high torque situation. Aluminum still oxidizes much the same as corrosion so wouldn't that still be an issue with aluminum on aluminum if not using some sort of anti seize?

Offline Cougars750F0

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Re: Aluminum vs. Stainless Steel Engine Fasteners - Redux
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2013, 09:01:28 am »
How about chrome? What type of anti seize should be used?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 09:03:57 am by Cougars750F0 »
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Offline wohali

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Re: Aluminum vs. Stainless Steel Engine Fasteners - Redux
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2013, 10:17:46 am »
@Stev-o: Because I wanted allen key heads and they were the only thing available locally for physical pickup. It was a mistake; I should have just mail ordered instead.

@calj737: No, not really analysis-paralysis, I'd already made my mind up. I posted this because of the variety of mis-information I've seen flying around, and wanted to get everything together in a single post for future reference. I was also hoping this might end up getting moved to the tips-and-tricks section.

I guess anti-seize for aluminum fasteners would be acceptable to help ameliorate any galling; as you state it's hard to get torque correct at low values like that without a single-value torque screwdriver, and most folks aren't going to bother springing for one. But the Al/Al interface should not result in galvanic corrosion, just the galling adhesive wear - but that may be reason enough to use a lubricant anyway.

@Powderman: "Brittle" is the question of elasticity I covered in my original post. Yes, SS is more brittle than carbon steel, but both are still less brittle than Aluminum, and for this application all three are likely to be elastic enough as long as you don't overdrive. I'd definitely not use SS bolts for a high torque application, and I'd oversize what grade of carbon steel I used. When building the roof trusses for my workshop (load in all 3 directions on fasteners between 1/4" steel plates and 4x8 spruce beams), we went with grade 5 zinc or potassium dichromate plated 5/8" and 3/4" bolts. Why not grade 8? Big fasteners get expensive, even in volume... ;) And grade 5 was more than sufficient given the application.

As for oxidization, aluminum oxidizes almost instantaneously when exposed to air. The clear AlO2 layer is protective, adheres extremely well and won't cause an issue. Remember, your average Coke can is made of Aluminum. Try tossing one in your yard for 5 years...it won't rust. The main problem with aluminum on aluminum will be galling, i.e. the physical tearing deformation that occurs as Al slides against Al. If you're not removing/inserting the covers that often, this shouldn't be a problem - you could even minimize it with a light film of oil if you wish.

@Cougars750F0: Chrome is just going to be your plating on the bolt. With any plated bolt, even the modern zinc-plated SS, you have to assume that the act of insertion and use of the fastener will scrape some of the plating off as well as any oxide layer, meaning you have an Aluminum/Stainless Steel interface again as well as galling. Use copper anti-seize just like you would with steel fasteners.

Offline Cougars750F0

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Re: Aluminum vs. Stainless Steel Engine Fasteners - Redux
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2013, 11:05:38 am »
That's what I thought but it great to have another opinion. Thanks your time. Cougar 
1970 Honda / Yoshimura 810 with ported head, 1968  Honda CB450 5 speed European model, 1973  Triumph Bonneville 750 twin carburetor model, 1975 Honda 750F0 Super Sport, 1977 Honda 750A

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Aluminum vs. Stainless Steel Engine Fasteners - Redux
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2013, 11:38:29 am »
Great thread wohali!

Thanks for pulling together so much information.

What about the typical zinc platted steel bolts/screws?  I assume the protective coating on them is too hard and thick to be scratched off during normal assembly into aluminum.  Quality zinc plated steel may be the best bet after all is said an done.   - If you don't scratch the head of the bolt during assembly, you should be rust free for many many years - right?

Also, with anodized aluminum I would assume galling wouldn't be an issue either, as the coating is too hard/thick to be scratched off when threading into the engine case.  I could be wrong though.

I think (please note "think") that galling occurs on similar metals with very thin oxide layers (i.e. SS to SS, or bare AL to bare AL) where non-oxidized similar metals are then in contact with each other after the thin oxide layer is scratched.  I don't believe this would be an issue with Anodized aluminum, or plated steel/SS when inserting into aluminum threads.

Agreed on not using SS in place of mid-high carbon steel when strength/torque is needed....

Which now brings into question what do use in place of all those case bolts (and main bearing bolts) when rebuilding an engine case.  I'm planning to use the HD studs/nuts from APE for the latter, but I'm not sure how well they will hold up to the elements.  You can no longer get the two longer OEM main bearing bolts for the CB750. 

BTW... not that it applies here... but I think that soda cans are coated (both internally and externally) - I tried some electrical project with one years ago and realized I needed to scratch the surface to get it to conduct.
- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline 754

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Re: Aluminum vs. Stainless Steel Engine Fasteners - Redux
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2013, 12:18:56 pm »
When I was buying bulk chrome fasteners from Gardner-Wescott, they recommended using wax on the threads.. I would give it a swipe against a candle kept in toolbox.
 Great supplier btw.

 Generally on most fasteners I use a bit of loctite blue, if not smear of oil...... Unless its stainless..
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Offline Dave Voss

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Re: Aluminum vs. Stainless Steel Engine Fasteners - Redux
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2013, 12:31:56 pm »
There's a bunch of older threads on this board dedicated to the question: what should I use to replace the horrible original fasteners for the engine covers?

Great information that you've assembled here,  but I have one question:  Why do so many folks think that the original fasteners are horrible?  With the correct tools, they are easily installed, removed, and rarely break or strip.  The key is using the correct tools, nearly every original fastener that I've seen fail was mistreated one way or another.  Unless appearance is the compelling reason, why change them at all?
-Dave Voss
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Offline wohali

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Re: Aluminum vs. Stainless Steel Engine Fasteners - Redux
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2013, 01:02:18 pm »
@Kickstart: Zinc is only really going to help for fastener-to-exterior corrosion to prevent rusting. You still need the anti-seize for the dissimilar metal issue. I went with zinc for my garage fasteners because of how close they were to the exterior, and the possibility of the roof leaking at some point in the future. A further concern would be road debris (especially for the lower cover plate bolts) hitting the head of a fastener and nicking the finish; this can lead to further pitting and rusting over time. SS and Al would be much more resistant to this kind of unavoidable abuse. You might be able to use button washers to cup the head in some places, though I'm not 100% sure the countersinking will allow for it everywhere.

I went and looked at finishing.com - a board dedicated to professionals in the field - for recommendations on tight fits, aluminum, anodization and galling where the original poster wants to ensure a 1 mil tolerance. It seems that hard anodizing is the way to go if you want to avoid galling on anodized aluminum, which per MIL-A-8625F (same as AMS-A-8625) requires a thickness of 2 mils (0.002"). Going off of Pro-Bolt's materials guide, their colour anodization coating is 8-12 microns thick, or approximately 0.4724 mils. That's a factor of ten off! (If you find a source of 8625-hard-anodized aluminum fasteners in the right sizes, do let me know, I'd be interested in trying them out if the price was right.) The only other options posted are tin or silver plating (even more expensive), and chromate conversion plating, which is Iridite 14-2 for aluminum, applied by dip/brush/swab (a 10-lb can of which costs $410). Youch, though it'd be neat to have that around the shop.

As I understand the situation, when you put the bolt in and torque it, the fastening action is enough to crack most of these surface finishes - including the thin naturally-occuring aluminum oxide layer - and the generated friction heat is enough to start galvanic corrosion in place for carbon steel. Using the anti-seize provides enough of a temporary barrier to the corrosion that the surface finish can fix itself, or further oxidize and prevent the corrosion from being an immediate concern.

For the main bolts, I'd need to look again at the application, loading, exposure to elements, etc. but would probably stick with the original specification materials if possible (which I believe is grade 5 carbon steel, zinc plated).

And yes, soda cans have lots of coatings on them, my mistake for bringing them into this. A piece of kitchen aluminum foil is probably a better example.

@754: If you're not using an anti-seize, wax, 3-in-1 or even pipe thread compound is a good option for the threads. It will serve the same purpose as the anti-seize. Though because of the dissimilar metal situation, I'd probably still opt for the copper anti-seize just to be sure.

@Dave Voss: My original fasteners were rusted to all hell on the outside and a few of the the Philips heads were stripped by the previous owner. The simple act of removal wrecked many of the remaining-OK-head ones, as they'd seized in place due to galvanic corrosion, and the rusted heads disintegrated when applying any sort of force - even when using a high quality impact driver.

While it may be possible to find identical replicas, most people want something where fastener-to-elements corrosion and fastener-to-engine-block seizing is less of a concern. Hex heads are more convenient and prevalent on today's marketplace, if not period; the only thing to remember (at the risk of sounding like a broken record) is that it's easier to overtorque them vs. the Philips head.

Offline Bailgang

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Re: Aluminum vs. Stainless Steel Engine Fasteners - Redux
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2013, 02:34:40 pm »
BTW... not that it applies here... but I think that soda cans are coated (both internally and externally) - I tried some electrical project with one years ago and realized I needed to scratch the surface to get it to conduct.

Correct, I used to work for a can plant that made soda and beer cans and worked in both the printing dept and internal spray dept. About the only spots it doesn't have any coating is on the outside of the can at the bottom.

That's all besides the point because I get what wohali is saying which is great info.
Scott


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Offline SohRon

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Re: Aluminum vs. Stainless Steel Engine Fasteners - Redux
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2013, 05:19:16 pm »
You're asking for trouble if you use copper AS on your case bolts; there's a pretty big gap between copper and aluminum on the galvanic table. It's formulated for high-temp applications and should be limited to areas like the exhaust studs and spark plugs. It is recommended to use zinc or aluminum AS in all other areas. Copper in the case will eventually eat out the threads. Just a heads up...
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 05:25:40 pm by SohRon »
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Assembling my '74 CB550: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=86697.0
Assembly of the Right-hand Switch (a rebuilder's guide):  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=80532.0
Installing stock 4X4 exhaust: CB500-CB550 K: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=82323.0
CB550 Assembly Manual: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,151576.0.html

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Aluminum vs. Stainless Steel Engine Fasteners - Redux
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2013, 05:50:17 pm »
You're asking for trouble if you use copper AS on your case bolts; there's a pretty big gap between copper and aluminum on the galvanic table. It's formulated for high-temp applications and should be limited to areas like the exhaust studs and spark plugs. It is recommended to use zinc or aluminum AS in all other areas. Copper in the case will eventually eat out the threads. Just a heads up...

Argh... so, there are a couple threads on this, I thought most of them had the consensus of copper AS being better for this... I'll have to go re-read those, as I bought a bottle of the stuff because of the convincing arguments :)   

- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Aluminum vs. Stainless Steel Engine Fasteners - Redux
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2013, 07:26:55 pm »
@wohali:  Man, I'm really surprised to hear that the typical AL anodized coating isn't thick enough to prevent scratching through to the non-oxidized metal... very interesting. 

Still, the typical zinc or chrome plating on a steel bolt should be thick enough, right?  It doesn't solve the road debris problem, but I question how significant that really is. Most of the bolts and nuts I removed off my 37 year old cb750 project bike didn't have any rust on the exposed part. I do see corrosion on the threads, but that should be easy to prevent with some anti-seize... or at least slow down.

So, you've got me thinking about Al fastners (which I never really thought of as an option before) - If I had to choose between galling or galvanic corrosion, I think I'd choose galling for most cover bolts... as I thought galling was more of an issue for parts that need to be periodically disassembled/reassembled. Ideally, putting on the covers is a one-time event (only exception being the sprocket cover). 

Interestingly, on the Probolt website, it lists their AL bolts (7075T6) as "stronger" than their SS (316) ones, as it has a higher yield strength.  The 7075T6 has less ductility than SS, but you wouldn't get anywhere close to the yield point when using them on the covers.  http://www.probolt-usa.com/media/wysiwyg/Material_specification.pdf

I think friction would be higher though, so one would still want to use some anti-seize or lubricant when installing... Hmm, it's not to late to purchase these for my project bike :)
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 07:55:26 pm by Kickstart »
- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline SohRon

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Re: Aluminum vs. Stainless Steel Engine Fasteners - Redux
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2013, 07:59:26 pm »
You're asking for trouble if you use copper AS on your case bolts; there's a pretty big gap between copper and aluminum on the galvanic table. It's formulated for high-temp applications and should be limited to areas like the exhaust studs and spark plugs. It is recommended to use zinc or aluminum AS in all other areas. Copper in the case will eventually eat out the threads. Just a heads up...

Argh... so, there are a couple threads on this, I thought most of them had the consensus of copper AS being better for this... I'll have to go re-read those, as I bought a bottle of the stuff because of the convincing arguments :)


You might want to read this post. It covers the subject pretty thoroughly:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=94686.msg1086683#msg1086683
"He slipped back down the alley with some roly-poly little bat-faced girl..."

Assembling my '74 CB550: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=86697.0
Assembly of the Right-hand Switch (a rebuilder's guide):  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=80532.0
Installing stock 4X4 exhaust: CB500-CB550 K: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=82323.0
CB550 Assembly Manual: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,151576.0.html

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Aluminum vs. Stainless Steel Engine Fasteners - Redux
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2013, 09:47:41 pm »
Thanks SohRon... Ok, now I'm leaning towards zinc based anti-seize. 

I posted a response in that thread with some additional questions (I didn't want to side-track this one too much). 
- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA