Topic: Do I Have any Legal Merit Against This Machine Shop?

[Trad]

Long story read if you have time. I brought my cylinder head and cylinder jugs to my local (motorcycle specific) machine shop and he was to rebuild my cylinder head and do the boring of the jugs for the Dynoman 572 kit I picked up. My brother works in the local vw machine shop and recommended these guys to me as they are motorcycle specific. I trusted his word.

Problem number one: He was finished with the big bore first and I was told he gaped the rings and everything was ready to go. I went home and did physical check on the gaps and all of the first rings were far too tight. I just sucked it up and ground a bit more to make the suggested .010 gap. The second and oil rings were not ground at all but were in spec right out of the package.

Problem number two: They somehow either dropped the head or banged it because two of the fins were bent pretty bad. I noticed this right away when I picked it up and they ended up giving me a mere 40 bucks off the bill claiming that they did not damage it and the discount was in good faith. FINE! I ended up taking it home and straightening the two bent fins. It's possible I could have done this? NO, I would have known.

Problem number three: This one is the problem which I am livid about and just found out today. When I first dropped it off I gave them a specific of what I wanted done. Full check over, 3 angle, minimal decking, full media blast with a thorough washing to get all of that #$%* out of the passages and threads, to advise me if there were any parts I should replace because I wanted this done right the first time. I told them not to reuse anything that was iffy and to NOT grind any of the valves! (I had already supplied oem valve seals, Kibble White springs, titanium retainers, and I would foot the bill if I needed guides or valves.)

When I picked it up I was told all was well, guides were good, valves were good, only the seats were cut and it sealed perfectly.

Curiosity got the better of me today and I decided to pull a valve and check for myself. SURE ENOUGH THE DAMN VALVES ARE GROUND AND HONESTLY ARE NOT SOMETHING I DON'T WANT BEING USED IN THIS ENGINE. These valves are too tiny to grind, and these were ground substantially. I put it back in and did the old lighter fluid trick, sure enough I have seepage past a few of the valves.

I took it back this afternoon and was told they never ground the valves and I must have swapped out the valves. I am in awe.

Advice?

[Powderman]

Do you have any paperwork showing what they did and charged you for? How much was it? It might be difficult making it worth your while with them already creating their "defense" You can do them more damage by expressing your legitimate thoughts to their potential customers on forums like this. Do they have a Facebook page?

[wowbagger]

Legally, unless you wrote it all down beforehand and had photos pre and post work, it's pretty much a he said/she said situation.

As much as it sucks, I've always found that it takes less time (and usually costs less) to just take it somewhere else and have it done right. By the time you spend the year or so dealing with lawyers, court hearing and waiting for the verdict it's not worth the settlement you end up with.

Hope it works out for you.

[wowbagger]

Good point, Powderman. I would find every web presence they have and leave your feedback. Facebook, Yelp, Google, etc.

[754]

What is wrong with grinding the valves ?

[Trad]

Do you have any paperwork showing what they did and charged you for? How much was it? It might be difficult making it worth your while with them already creating their "defense" You can do them more damage by expressing your legitimate thoughts to their potential customers on forums like this. Do they have a Facebook page?

Thanks for the input. They do have a facebook page and web address. I am going to hold off on posting it until I talk to the owner of the shop tomorrow. I will do all I can web wise once I'm 100 percent have the door shut in my face.

The only paperwork he gave me was the receipt stating cylinder head rebuild. It was done on a serdi machine and I was charged 465 bucks all in! I paid for the what I thought was the best.

[Powderman]

Good point, Powderman. I would find every web presence they have and leave your feedback. Facebook, Yelp, Google, etc.

"Do good work and that customer will tell 10 friends, do shoddy work and that customer will tell 100 friends and seek out strangers to biatch at also", I run my business this way. Normally a valve may not fit the seat angle job and should be ground to match. Explain more how thin your valves were new?

[Trad]

Legally, unless you wrote it all down beforehand and had photos pre and post work, it's pretty much a he said/she said situation.

As much as it sucks, I've always found that it takes less time (and usually costs less) to just take it somewhere else and have it done right. By the time you spend the year or so dealing with lawyers, court hearing and waiting for the verdict it's not worth the settlement you end up with.

Hope it works out for you.

Thanks for the advice man! I have already lined up another shop.

[phil71]

Ground or not, if they don't hold liquid, they certainly did something wrong.

[wowbagger]

 It was a hard and expensive lesson to learn myself. Glad it helped you.

[Powderman]

Do you have any paperwork showing what they did and charged you for? How much was it? It might be difficult making it worth your while with them already creating their "defense" You can do them more damage by expressing your legitimate thoughts to their potential customers on forums like this. Do they have a Facebook page?

Thanks for the input. They do have a facebook page and web address. I am going to hold off on posting it until I talk to the owner of the shop tomorrow. I will do all I can web wise once I'm 100 percent have the door shut in my face.

The only paperwork he gave me was the receipt stating cylinder head rebuild. It was done on a serdi machine and I was charged 465 bucks all in! I paid for the what I thought was the best.

Investigate all avenues with the shop to try and remedy the situation. If that doesn't work start with a tactful explanation of what happened on their FB page. After they burn the bridge nail them hard on their FB, just don't slander them or lie about anything and there ain't much they can do about it.

[Trad]

Good point, Powderman. I would find every web presence they have and leave your feedback. Facebook, Yelp, Google, etc.

"Do good work and that customer will tell 10 friends, do shoddy work and that customer will tell 100 friends and seek out strangers to biatch at also", I run my business this way. Normally a valve may not fit the seat angle job and should be ground to match. Explain more how thin your valves were new?

I am not a machinist but I can tell it is excessive grinding. I will post a photo tomorrow.  I specifically stated if any valves needed grinding or were iffy I had an open wallet to replace them. I don't know what part of that they didn't understand. This was the last straw for me.

[754]

SO are you saying you think it will not  work?
 Sounds to me like it is freshly rebuilt..
 He said he took them apart now they wont hold fluid.
 I suspect they did what they do to all their valvejobs, and it will probably work well..

 Its probably not excessive grinding, you no longer see that it looked like that new.. Look at pics of new valves.

[Trad]

Ground or not, if they don't hold liquid, they certainly did something wrong.

Exactly! something is not right. My speculation is that the valves that are not holding liquid were slightly bent and they ground the valves excessively to compensate. I think they wanted me in and out and didn't want to wait for new valves.

[Powderman]

Take a video of the leakage right now and document your complaint in a letter to your self and mail it to you. Don't open it when you get it. Document any "fix" from from another shop and have them put it in writing on the work repair order. Request the old shop to reimburse you for your costs. If they don't you can take them to small claims court. By then the shop will have forgotten much of the situation while you will be able to open a date stamped postmarked letter expressing the situation while it was current. This can go a long way i front of a judge. I the mean time your work has been corrected and you're at least on the road enjoying your ride.

[Trad]

SO are you saying you think it will not  work?
 Sounds to me like it is freshly rebuilt..
 He said he took them apart now they wont hold fluid.
 I suspect they did what they do to all their valvejobs, and it will probably work well..

 Its probably not excessive grinding, you no longer see that it looked like that new.. Look at pics of new valves.

754,

What I am saying is that they did not do what I asked of them. I am not on a budget build and am willing to spend for what is needed. I pulled one valve and it was ground heavily. A few other valves are not holding fluid, ones I have not touched. If you read my last post you will see my speculation. I will pull the rest of the valves tomorrow before I head back to speak with the higher ups.

I can see what it looked like before hand because I own another 550 head that I've taken apart and compared valves.

[Trad]

Take a video of the leakage right now and document your complaint in a letter to your self and mail it to you. Don't open it when you get it. Document any "fix" from from another shop and have them put it in writing on the work repair order. Request the old shop to reimburse you for your costs. If they don't you can take them to small claims court. By then the shop will have forgotten much of the situation while you will be able to open a date stamped postmarked letter expressing the situation while it was current. This can go a long way i front of a judge. I the mean time your work has been corrected and you're at least on the road enjoying your ride.

Great Idea! In all honesty I'm not sure it's going to be worth my time to take this to court. For me it's more about the principal and them calling me a liar. "I planted these valves" apparently. It's insane!

[754]

 What i am saying is a valve is ground all the way across, if you took 3 thou off it still looks like a lot of grinding.
 You can check with other builders on here but heads are not always checked for minute leakage, they usually work well as is.

 At any rate i can see where are not getting along with that shop, they probably thought you just wanted the head rebuilt like they do every day..

 But at 400 bux, I would be thinking you could send it a lot of places.

[Trad]

What i am saying is a valve is ground all the way across, if you took 3 thou off it still looks like a lot of grinding.
 You can check with other builders on here but heads are not always checked for minute leakage, they usually work well as is.

 At any rate i can see where are not getting along with that shop, they probably thought you just wanted the head rebuilt like they do every day..

 But at 400 bux, I would be thinking you could send it a lot of places.

I did't think it needed to be shipped. They had a serdi machine and there has been decent word of mouth about the shop.  I'm in Canada and over the boarder #$%* gets tiring. I did think of shipping it to Buzz though. Wish I had now.

It's just the principal at this point. I just bought new valves off Dynoman and lined up a shop locally that I wish I had taken it in the first place.

[kghost]

Many times when machining valve seats......

The valves no longer seal to the point where fluid will leak out of them.

This is why valves are "lapped" into the seat. Usually a machine shop will not do this.

A couple hours with some valve lapping compound will usually have them fluid tight

Theoretically after the first few runs the valves begin to match the seat to the point where they seal up just fine anyway.

Without pictures its difficult to understand what "too ground or too thin" looks like.

[754]

Exactly.. Do as you must, but I think there is a chance you are sittiong on a good fresh useable head.

 In a perfect world every engine shop would wear HONDA FACTORY WHITE GLOVES , and kiss every valve before installing , then lap and fluid check, before calling it done... But it just aint happening that way.

  I know guys that have engine shops, and I am pretty sure that most wont lap or leaktest.

 The day it gets started, gonna open and close 1000 times a minute, and or more till that engine gets very old.

 I know he did not do as you asked, and hurt your head.. But it may actually be ok now..

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

You don't have a legal leg to stand on. No proof of anything. Pissing contest at best. No way could you cover your legal costs. Document document document from the beginning.

[Trad]

Many times when machining valve seats......

The valves no longer seal to the point where fluid will leak out of them.

This is why valves are "lapped" into the seat. Usually a machine shop will not do this.

A couple hours with some valve lapping compound will usually have them fluid tight

Theoretically after the first few runs the valves begin to match the seat to the point where they seal up just fine anyway.

Without pictures its difficult to understand what "too ground or too thin" looks like.

I hear you man. I am not new to head work. Regardless, a fresh valve job on a serdi machine, especially for the price I payed should be better than what I got. I realize valves will "pound in" I guess I'm salty for being called a liar.

[Trad]

Exactly.. Do as you must, but I think there is a chance you are sittiong on a good fresh useable head.

 In a perfect world every engine shop would wear HONDA FACTORY WHITE GLOVES , and kiss every valve before installing , then lap and fluid check, before calling it done... But it just aint happening that way.

  I know guys that have engine shops, and I am pretty sure that most wont lap or leaktest.

 The day it gets started, gonna open and close 1000 times a minute, and or more till that engine gets very old.

 I know he did not do as you asked, and hurt your head.. But it may actually be ok now..

Oh, I'm sure the head usable, not as solid as I'm comfortable with though.  I am building this motor and building it once. No skimping. I payed for what I thought wouldn't have doubt; you know?

The fact is that I payed for a service that should have been done to what I asked. I didn't want ground valves, if it needed any at all I was ready to pay for fresh valves. All they would have had to do is wait.

THE PART THAT PISSES ME OFF IS THE FACT HE CLAIMS TO NOT HAVE GROUND THE VALVES AND THAT I PLANTED THEM! I am not trying to frame anyone, these claims are insane. I am truly in awe of the immaturity. They could have simply said "Yeah I ground them, thought it would be fine, that's how we always do them" or something to that extent. But no, I get this kind of BS. I don't get it.

[dave500]

if youve tampered with their work its looks bad?id expect the valves to be lapped though?valves will have to be ground in most cases if the seats get cut,dont know why they say they werent cut?id say itll run ok and the valves will seal once run,that or lap them yourself then recheck them,a good shop will bore and hone then number each piston to each bore,breaking the fins sucks though.