Topic: CB550 - Electrics die when running with lights on

[crantonr]

Hi all,

I've read through as many FAQ's as I can about 550 electrical problems. Most revolve around the battery being in a bad state or not charging. I've only recently bought the bike and I'm still finding my way around it and with the darker nights I'm not keen on taking it out when it cuts out even on short runs.

Here goes:

With lights off the bike runs on the centre stand well enough with no problems. Battery is fully charged and some basic checks show the voltage running up to about 14.5v at 5000 rpm so it looks as though the charging system is working in principle.

When I switch the lights on it will run for a while and still show a voltage increase on higher revs but after a few minutes the bike will completely die. No electrics at all including the neutral light. If I wait for a while I often hear a click and electrics are back on again. Its almost as though something has 'tripped'. I can replicate this most of the time. If it doesn't come back by itself usually a wiggle of the ignition key will bring it back to life.

The bike has standard rectifier / regulator. Headlamp bulb is 55/60w. The coils have been replaced by electronic ignition. My first thoughts were faulty ignition switch but if it was it would also fail with lights off (I assume). The 'click' I think is coming from around the R/H side panel so I'm wondering if the regulator points are sticking or something similar. I might also try a lower voltage headlamp bulb in case it is drawing too much juice but other posts suggest the electrics are capable of supporting 55/60w.

Any ideas?

[Deltarider]

What about taking the bike for a ride instead of letting it idle till it's sick of it?

[LesterPiglet]

Likely faulty ignition switch. Bad grounds.
The click you hear will be the starter solenoid not getting enough juice to operate properly.
Yep, take it for a ride and see if the problem is better/worse when moving, a bit of shaking will show up bad connections sooner.

[crantonr]

It dies the same when its being ridden so not just failing on idle. I've just tried letting it run at higher revs (about 2000 rpm) and it was happy with that for a while but then the revs dropped back and the lights flickered and then all cut out again. If it was a stall I would expect the neutral light to stay on but happy to be proven wrong.

[kammery]

 Since you can duplicate it in your driveway . Check the battery voltage when problem occurs . Does it stay at 12 volts ? Then take your volt meter attach one end to battery negative the other lead to the engine . When the problem occurs does the volt meter read less than 1/2 volt ? If it does then the engine to battery ground is good . Remove the fuel tank there is the wire harness ground attached to the coil mounting bracket .Is it clean and tight ? Do the same thing with your voltmeter as mentioned above . Next connect one end to the battery positive the other to the red wire at ign switch . less than 1/2 volt is good . your are checking for loss of voltage in the circuits . Do you have a wire schematic for your 550 ?

  Ohm meters have there place .However the voltage drop checks will find your problem better . Lastly disconnect the voltage regulator , does the problem go away ? you may have a shorted regulator or stator assembly .Keep us posted .

[TwoTired]

Hi all,

I've read through as many FAQ's as I can about 550 electrical problems. Most revolve around the battery being in a bad state or not charging. I've only recently bought the bike and I'm still finding my way around it and with the darker nights I'm not keen on taking it out when it cuts out even on short runs.

Here goes:

With lights off the bike runs on the centre stand well enough with no problems. Battery is fully charged and some basic checks show the voltage running up to about 14.5v at 5000 rpm so it looks as though the charging system is working in principle.

When I switch the lights on it will run for a while and still show a voltage increase on higher revs but after a few minutes the bike will completely die. No electrics at all including the neutral light. If I wait for a while I often hear a click and electrics are back on again. Its almost as though something has 'tripped'. I can replicate this most of the time. If it doesn't come back by itself usually a wiggle of the ignition key will bring it back to life.

The bike has standard rectifier / regulator. Headlamp bulb is 55/60w. The coils have been replaced by electronic ignition. My first thoughts were faulty ignition switch but if it was it would also fail with lights off (I assume). The 'click' I think is coming from around the R/H side panel so I'm wondering if the regulator points are sticking or something similar. I might also try a lower voltage headlamp bulb in case it is drawing too much juice but other posts suggest the electrics are capable of supporting 55/60w.

Any ideas?

How old is the battery? 
When was it last charged from a bench charger?
Does the voltage at the battery reach 14.5V  when revved and the lights on?

The alternator has an output limit of about 150 Watts @ 5000 RPM, and about 1/3 of that at idle speed.  In stock form, the 550 consumes about 120 Watts, with lights on.  You added 15 watts load with the headlamp, bringing the load to 135 watts, as well as unspecified ignition changes, which in some cases, can add another 60 Watts load to the electrical system, bringing the possible load to 195 Watts which the alternator can never hope to provide.  The allows the bike to operate only until the battery has depleted to a point where spark can no longer be produced. This will occur significantly faster at idle speed when the alternator is only making 50 watts of power.

I will mention that all the electrical "upgrades" made to the bike would add current draw from the Black 12V power distribution lines which get power through the key switch contacts.  With 75 watts additional (assumption made from grey area "facts"), that's a 6 amp increase in power coursing through the switch contacts, which if deteriorated, significantly add to internal contact heats and possible plastic distortion/melting.

It is possible that you have owner induced changes creating a routine operation problem, as well as causal evidence to support shorter key switch life.

[Black 750K8]

 crantonr
If I wait for a while I often hear a click and electrics are back on again. Its almost as though something has 'tripped'

 LesterPiglet
The click you hear will be the starter solenoid not getting enough juice to operate properly.

crantonr are you doing any thing when you hear the click like pushing the start button?

Lester it sounds like he is not trying to start it maybe a po put a auto reset circuit breaker on in place of a fuse. We need more information cranton If you can make it happen then you should be able to find where the clicking is coming from.

[crantonr]

crantonr
If I wait for a while I often hear a click and electrics are back on again. Its almost as though something has 'tripped'

 LesterPiglet
The click you hear will be the starter solenoid not getting enough juice to operate properly.

crantonr are you doing any thing when you hear the click like pushing the start button?

Lester it sounds like he is not trying to start it maybe a po put a auto reset circuit breaker on in place of a fuse. We need more information cranton If you can make it happen then you should be able to find where the clicking is coming from.

No - not touching the bike at all. Electrics normally come back by themselves after about 20secs and as long as the battery is still holding enough charge she starts straight back up.

Thanks Richard

[crantonr]

Hi all,

I've read through as many FAQ's as I can about 550 electrical problems. Most revolve around the battery being in a bad state or not charging. I've only recently bought the bike and I'm still finding my way around it and with the darker nights I'm not keen on taking it out when it cuts out even on short runs.

Here goes:

With lights off the bike runs on the centre stand well enough with no problems. Battery is fully charged and some basic checks show the voltage running up to about 14.5v at 5000 rpm so it looks as though the charging system is working in principle.

When I switch the lights on it will run for a while and still show a voltage increase on higher revs but after a few minutes the bike will completely die. No electrics at all including the neutral light. If I wait for a while I often hear a click and electrics are back on again. Its almost as though something has 'tripped'. I can replicate this most of the time. If it doesn't come back by itself usually a wiggle of the ignition key will bring it back to life.

The bike has standard rectifier / regulator. Headlamp bulb is 55/60w. The coils have been replaced by electronic ignition. My first thoughts were faulty ignition switch but if it was it would also fail with lights off (I assume). The 'click' I think is coming from around the R/H side panel so I'm wondering if the regulator points are sticking or something similar. I might also try a lower voltage headlamp bulb in case it is drawing too much juice but other posts suggest the electrics are capable of supporting 55/60w.

Any ideas?

How old is the battery?  Looks like it has 2012 stamped in the top - I'm trying to get hold of a hydrometer to check the condition of the cells

When was it last charged from a bench charger? I use a .06amp trickle charger / charged today
Does the voltage at the battery reach 14.5V  when revved and the lights on?

The alternator has an output limit of about 150 Watts @ 5000 RPM, and about 1/3 of that at idle speed.  In stock form, the 550 consumes about 120 Watts, with lights on.  You added 15 watts load with the headlamp, bringing the load to 135 watts, as well as unspecified ignition changes, which in some cases, can add another 60 Watts load to the electrical system, bringing the possible load to 195 Watts which the alternator can never hope to provide.  The allows the bike to operate only until the battery has depleted to a point where spark can no longer be produced. This will occur significantly faster at idle speed when the alternator is only making 50 watts of power.

I will mention that all the electrical "upgrades" made to the bike would add current draw from the Black 12V power distribution lines which get power through the key switch contacts.  With 75 watts additional (assumption made from grey area "facts"), that's a 6 amp increase in power coursing through the switch contacts, which if deteriorated, significantly add to internal contact heats and possible plastic distortion/melting.

It is possible that you have owner induced changes creating a routine operation problem, as well as causal evidence to support shorter key switch life.

This sounds promising - Will the electronic ignition be adding to that load? Thanks Richard

[crantonr]

I'll try and answer some of the questions:

Battery voltage doesn't alter when electrics die.

Battery voltage charges to 14.8 volt at 5000 rpm with / without light load.

Problem is worse on idle - I'm not seeing any charge on idle only reading about 12.2v. What should the regulator be doing at idle?

If it fails when riding with lights it is usually at intersections etc when the bike is on idle. Duff battery plus no idle charging ?

Thanks Richard

[crantonr]

PS ....could the clicking be coming from the electronic ignition unit which is positioned (loosely)  under the seat and above the air filter & battery.

[TwoTired]

This sounds promising - Will the electronic ignition be adding to that load? Thanks Richard

Definition of terms.
Ignition refers to the coils AND the trigger unit.  Are you referring the just the trigger or coils as well?  What exactly do you have for coils and trigger unit?  We know how the stock parts work.  We even know how some changed parts work ***IF*** we know what those are.  Otherwise, we can all just guess for days and weeks.

Battery voltage charges to 14.8 volt at 5000 rpm with / without light load.

...And WITH lights on load?

Problem is worse on idle - I'm not seeing any charge on idle only reading about 12.2v. What should the regulator be doing at idle?

The regulator should tell the alternator to make max power, which at idle RPM is about 50 watts.

If it fails when riding with lights it is usually at intersections etc when the bike is on idle. Duff battery plus no idle charging ?

You'd better shows us a picture of the clicking component.  The vreg will click at times when it loses enough voltage going to it.
If the battery continues to lose voltage, that might be the click you hear.

[crantonr]

This sounds promising - Will the electronic ignition be adding to that load? Thanks Richard

Definition of terms.
Ignition refers to the coils AND the trigger unit.  Are you referring the just the trigger or coils as well?  What exactly do you have for coils and trigger unit?  We know how the stock parts work.  We even know how some changed parts work ***IF*** we know what those are.  Otherwise, we can all just guess for days and weeks.

Battery voltage charges to 14.8 volt at 5000 rpm with / without light load.

...And WITH lights on load?

Problem is worse on idle - I'm not seeing any charge on idle only reading about 12.2v. What should the regulator be doing at idle?

The regulator should tell the alternator to make max power, which at idle RPM is about 50 watts.

If it fails when riding with lights it is usually at intersections etc when the bike is on idle. Duff battery plus no idle charging ?

You'd better shows us a picture of the clicking component.  The vreg will click at times when it loses enough voltage going to it.
If the battery continues to lose voltage, that might be the click you hear.

Sorry if i'm not making myself clear. I must still have coils that was a school boy error! The trigger unit is an add on electronic ignition unit to replace the breakers. I have not investigated what make it is yet. Yes still get 14.8v with lights on load. I'm still trying to bottom out what is clicking but will certainly pass on more info when I have it. I took Deltariders advice and gave it a quick ride around the block. Some of it might be riding technique. It is reasonably happy above 3000 rpm but problems occur below that.

Will have another look tomorrow (nearly time for bed in the UK!) Thanks for every ones posts.

[Duanob]

Curious, is your ignition switch aftermarket? Does your key have Honda stamped on it? There are issues with aftermarket ignition switches mostly made by EMGO. If you can make siomething happen by wiggling wires at the switch that would be my guess. It's happened before lots of times.

[crantonr]

Curious, is your ignition switch aftermarket? Does your key have Honda stamped on it? There are issues with aftermarket ignition switches mostly made by EMGO. If you can make siomething happen by wiggling wires at the switch that would be my guess. It's happened before lots of times.

Hi Duanob,

The keys look like replacements cut by a UK Company called Silca. I will have to look more closely at the origins of the switch. If it is an aftermarket switch what would you advise, dump it and get a replacement or try cleaning contacts etc on the existing unit?

Thanks
Richard

[Duanob]

If it is a replacement I would dump it and get a new one. they are pretty cheap. If it's OEM I would try and rebuild it. They are like hens teeth. What happens is the wire gauge was not sufficient in the cheapo replacements to handle the draw of the ignition and they get hot and melt. Go figure that the original charging system does not put out a lot of power.

This brings me to a question: Is there a better brand of replacment switches out there besides EMGO?

[crantonr]

Duanob,

Thought I would take the bike for a night time spin to see what happens. Complete shut out at 50mph down a dark English lane. Quite interesting trying to stop in the dark with no lights. Nursed it home and had another look at the ignition switch. I ran the lights up without the engine running and after a couple of minutes the electrics went off then came back on after a short while. I felt the switch and it was quite hot.

I therefore assume that the switch gets hot under current draw, cuts out, cools and electrics come back on. Time for a new switch I think but as you say not much out there other than cheapo replacements.

Thanks for the help

Richard

[crantonr]

New ignition switch has fixed the problem. Case closed. Thanks for every ones replies.