Author Topic: How long until...  (Read 3991 times)

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Offline Mo

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Re: How long until...
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2013, 09:02:06 pm »
Honestly, I truly believe that universal healthcare should be a thing already by now. That being said, with all of the recent NSA developments, I don't see how all of this info from patients wouldn't end up in a government database.

Perhaps we should all take a lesson from this great man, and stay off the grid :p


Offline simon#42

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Re: How long until...
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2013, 10:21:13 am »
suppose for a minute the do take a sample , what problems do you see this causing ?
The continuing loss of any privacy for one...

how does this affect your privacy ?  i take it you also see fingerprints , dental records , id photo's , driving licence's etc in the same way .

nccb  has hit the nail on the head , if the government wanted to know all about you [ which it doesn't  ] they will simply look at your Facebook account . forget dna most people have there whole life on show . a quick check of all the forums you are on and a review of your posts will reveal far more about you than your chemical make up .

Offline ofreen

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Re: How long until...
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2013, 10:44:59 am »
Quote from: link=topic=131866.msg1473166#msg1473166 date=1384971673
how does this affect your privacy ?  i take it you also see fingerprints , dental records , id photo's , driving licence's etc in the same way .

nccb  has hit the nail on the head , if the government wanted to know all about you [ which it doesn't  ] they will simply look at your Facebook account . forget dna most people have there whole life on show .

Here's the complacency I mentioned in my post above. Nothing against the poster, but we have been on the "slippery slope" for some time. The frog in the pot of hot water analogy comes to mind, too.  And it may come as a surprise to the narcissists  out there, but a whole lot of people have nothing to do with facebook, or if they do, use discretion about what they put on there.
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Offline simon#42

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Re: How long until...
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2013, 12:21:36 pm »
none taken ofreen , but please explain why a dna sample is ' the slippery slope '  but finger printing and dental records are not  ?

Offline ofreen

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Re: How long until...
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2013, 01:07:30 pm »
none taken ofreen , but please explain why a dna sample is ' the slippery slope '  but finger printing and dental records are not  ?

They are if those records are contained in a central data base. I mentioned we have been on the 'slope' for some time.  ;)
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Offline calj737

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Re: How long until...
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2013, 04:48:26 pm »
TT- when you pack up and put that coast in your rear view, come east to the Old Dominion. If you gauge the state by its culture (based upon area, not populous) you'll find compatible sentiments to yours. Plus, all the best roads are in that slice of heaven!

I believe the Op's point about also collecting DNA has deeper and wider ramifications than just identifying someone as a potential suspect. It could provide demographic data, medical insight, population engineering, heredity, etc. Another poster made the point about the "last time this movie played, it wasn't so pretty..."

Centralized Health Care is not a Right, it's an infringement upon our individual choices. THATS the problem with it!

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Offline 72 yellow

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Re: How long until...
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2013, 06:40:03 pm »
suppose for a minute the do take a sample , what problems do you see this causing ?
The continuing loss of any privacy for one...

how does this affect your privacy ?  i take it you also see fingerprints , dental records , id photo's , driving licence's etc in the same way .

nccb  has hit the nail on the head , if the government wanted to know all about you [ which it doesn't  ] they will simply look at your Facebook account . forget dna most people have there whole life on show . a quick check of all the forums you are on and a review of your posts will reveal far more about you than your chemical make up .
I don't post anything online that I would otherwise say to a perfect stranger.

Offline JeffSTL

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Re: How long until...
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2013, 07:38:14 pm »
I try to tell myself that people were just as crazy before the inter webs, but I'm not sure. Ya'll have lost your minds.

Offline 333

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Re: How long until...
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2013, 09:48:11 pm »
You can say that again.  Although I'l disagree with you on one thing.  People are just as crazy as they always were, the internet just lets us hear about it more.

I believe the Op's point about also collecting DNA has deeper and wider ramifications than just identifying someone as a potential suspect. It could provide demographic data, medical insight, population engineering, heredity, etc. Another poster made the point about the "last time this movie played, it wasn't so pretty..."

Okay, just because this "movie played" ONCE, doesn't mean it will again.  A lot of the world has had socialized medicine for a while, and guess what.  It's a totally different movie.  Can you honestly say that Canada or Great Britain(two of the better known countries w/ socialized medicine) is headed down that dark road?
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Offline bikerbart

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Re: How long until...
« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2013, 03:21:38 pm »
Hey TT  are you posting this from your fallout shelter ? You have your own personal Doctor in there with you. Must be nice. I am SURE you get no assistance from the Gubmint for your healthcare. Huh?
its better to regret something you have done,than something you havent.Except playing with explosives.

Offline 70CB750

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Re: How long until...
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2013, 03:33:23 pm »
Hey TT  are you posting this from your fallout shelter ? You have your own personal Doctor in there with you. Must be nice. I am SURE you get no assistance from the Gubmint for your healthcare. Huh?

Are you really dumb like that bikerbart?

Offline bikerbart

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Re: How long until...
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2013, 08:47:43 pm »
Duh...... wut? Someone please tell me why , what a 3rd, of all bankruptcies are because of not being able to pay for medical bills. Thats ok with you ? Don't tell me its easy to get a job that gives full coverage?? A country that doesn't give a crap about the health of its own people and turn it into a moneymaking empire for the insurance companies is NOT ok with me. It doesn't sit well. Morally, with me, ok, capice . Did you come from a nice normal family that had no problem affording health insurance ?? Well I did not. So, in my youth I worked my ass off all the time ,mostly had two jobs to get by, well, because I had to. I dont recall having health insurance for at least 15 plus years. Got me in debt , not because I am lazy, because  I was poor. So , Now my son is Canadian and I couldn't be happier. Dont get me wrong , I love my country, just dont agree much with the current state of things,see we do have something in common, Unless of course , you are a bigger patriot and have complete faith in the politicians and the system.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: How long until...
« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2013, 11:11:22 pm »
Hey TT  are you posting this from your fallout shelter ? You have your own personal Doctor in there with you. Must be nice. I am SURE you get no assistance from the Gubmint for your healthcare. Huh?

Q1 - No.
Q2 - No.
I have gotten no healthcare assistance from my government outside of my time in military service?  I understand that as a veteran, I can get some assistance from the VA if I request it.  I haven't yet.

What do any of your questions/comments have to do with privacy invasion and loss of individual freedoms for Americans?

Are you proposing we surrender all our independent thought, choices, and personal freedoms in exchange for being "taken care of according to the standards of a bureaucrat selected by politicians?".



Back to original topic, readers may find these excerpts interesting from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_liberties

"The United States maintains the largest DNA database in the world, with the Combined DNA Index System (CODIS) holding over 9 million records as of 2011. The United Kingdom maintains the National DNA Database (NDNAD), which is of similar size. The size of this database, and its rate of growth, is giving concern to civil liberties and political groups in the UK, where police have wide-ranging powers to take samples and retain them even in the event of acquittal. Other countries have adopted privately developed DNA databases, such as Qatar, which has adopted Bode dbSEARCH.
...
The application of DNA databases have been expanded into two controversial areas: arrestees and familial searching. An arrestee is a person arrested for a crime and who has not yet been convicted for that offense. Currently, 21 states have passed legislation that allows law enforcement to take DNA from an arrestee and enter it into the state's CODIS DNA database to see if that person has a criminal record or can be linked to any unsolved crimes. In familial searching, the DNA database is used to look for partial matches that would be expected between close family members.
...
Many countries collect newborn blood samples to screen for diseases mainly with a genetic basis. Mainly these are destroyed soon after testing. In some countries the dried blood (and the DNA) is retained for later testing."

Would you enjoy having had your DNA entered into a national database when you were an infant?








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Offline bikerbart

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Re: How long until...
« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2013, 06:14:16 am »
I thought this was about healthcare. Because the privacy ship has sailed a long time ago. we dont have any, and if any of you flag wavers think we still do then YOU are the fool.Privacy? I remember that. I also remember no cable, interweb, or cell phones. I would gladly give up all of the above if only to get Some liberties back. Home of the free my A$$. Free to line the pockets of shareholders and F everyone else. Now that WE the people have created this distopian nightmare as far as I am concerned, there is no turning back. We all have to be good stepford wives now ( older crowd will get it) Its a shame that when I talk or discuss this subject, we all agree, if that is the case then the politicians truly are doing the will of the corporation and acting out of FEAR. It seems the media, Giant companies/corporations and your elected officials have fooled the american people so much that all of this is somehow acceptable and NORMAL ? Its funny , on one hand I am as far too the right as you can go , on the other hand, well, your leaders seem to do the opposite of what they spew.
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Offline bikerbart

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Re: How long until...
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2013, 06:18:12 am »
TT, I never proposed anything. Your first sentence started out with healthcare. I would never propose anything to solve the problem, way too big for me to comprehend.
its better to regret something you have done,than something you havent.Except playing with explosives.

Offline 333

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Re: How long until...
« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2013, 10:53:30 am »
Would you enjoy having had your DNA entered into a national database when you were an infant?

And why would that be so bad?  DNA has been real helpful in solving crime.  Do you like crime?
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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: How long until...
« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2013, 12:07:13 pm »
A big problem I have with our gubment having something like my DNA is that info can get used in bad ways or be stolen by the wrong people.
I just don't really trust my gubment and their 'good intentions' much anymore.
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Offline martin99

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Re: How long until...
« Reply #42 on: November 22, 2013, 01:02:12 pm »
A big problem I have with our gubment having something like my DNA is that info can get used in bad ways or be stolen by the wrong people.

As far as I can see, the 'wrong people' already have it. Over here, we've already had top secret papers left on trains by government officials, and laptops full of personal health data stolen from the back seats of cars. And that's just what we know about.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: How long until...
« Reply #43 on: November 22, 2013, 02:56:36 pm »
Would you enjoy having had your DNA entered into a national database when you were an infant?

And why would that be so bad?  DNA has been real helpful in solving crime.  Do you like crime?
I suppose the quick short answer is that it is an invasion of personal privacy.  It's hard to imagine anything more personal than DNA.

In relation to crime, collecting DNA before the fact, or even before any reasonable suspicion or indictment, is tantamount to the assumption of guilt rather than innocence.    Our Bill of Rights currently instructs government to regard citizens as innocent until proven guilty.  We currently have plenty of criminals in government who, despite their sworn oath, are developing and protecting laws repugnant to the Constitution and Bill of Rights.  I'm astounded this is allowed to continue.

Further, there is no human made mechanism that is infallible regarding administration, recording, and human distribution, of the collected DNA particulars.   Would you trust your life and well being to the computer you are presently staring at?  Is a government blessed computer system any more confidence inspiring?
Have you noticed the widespread reports of ACA website problems? (The best your money can buy?)

Did you know that the DHS is just one agency investigating behavioral traits via DNA analysis?  Ostensibly, this is to identify terrorists before the fact.  But, by extension, what will they do with discovered trait categories that regard, say, voting propensity or the willingness to follow authoritarian instruction?

Could knowing behavioral traits beforehand make military or police recruitment screening allow the collection of personnel that will "follow orders without question or consideration of repercussions"?  Absolute power corrupts absolutely.  Are you willing to give that sort of power to a regime 50-75 years into the future?  If not, why does it make sense today?  Correcting mistakes are usually more costly than avoiding them, in my experience.

Consider the social engineering threat.  The prospect of controlling human behavior via DNA gene or trait identification seems real enough to me.  It's fine if you happen to be one of the engineers.  But, how is that really different from slavery?  Suppress and intimidate the free/independent thinkers, those that question authority.
"Mrs. subject (insert social security number here), we have determined though DNA analysis that your newborn has a 70% probability of becoming a terrorist/murder/rapist/tax evader (pick one).  This may be averted by the proper behavioral training, so his upbringing will be closely monitored and controlled.  Do you wish to comply for the rest of his developmental years? Or, allow the child to become a ward of the government?"  This, of course, is now fictitious story telling.  Other fictions have become reality, though.  What is to prevent this one?  A magnanimous government?

What do you call a government or a government agency that does not trust it's citizens?  Paranoid, or Fascist?
Are the days gone where laws are scrutinized and considered for the harm they can do as well as the possible good they might bring about?

You asked if I like crime?  Of course, just like most humans.  I like certain crimes when I'm the one doing it.  Speeding, for example.  Do I like being a victim of crime, of course not!   Particularly, when I have absolutely no recourse from birth but to be a victim.

Many humans have a natural trait to explore and infringe upon defined boundaries.  You're told not to put your hand in the fire.  Many will do it anyway, at least once, to learn firsthand the consequences.  Others, will observe the outcome when someone else does it and sufficiently learn from that.  Still, the boundary was explored and the consequences learned.  Rules and laws only set boundaries for behavior.  They don't of themselves prevent any such behavior.

The fact is, you can't prevent each and every person from doing something "wrong" (as defined by another human) without removing all freedoms from the individual.  I see slavery as the antithesis of freedom.  Each freedom lost or relinquished is one step closer to slavery.    I've no interest in having or becoming any more of a slave than I am already.  And, I don't wish or desire such on future generations.

If we disregard the Bill of Rights for the sake of short term convenience, what does that say about our society's future?
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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: How long until...
« Reply #44 on: November 22, 2013, 03:26:57 pm »
Pre-crime DNA unit.
Will it involve DNA manipulated pre-cogs to suss out potential, future criminals for citizen re-education?
Scary #$%* man.

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Offline martin99

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Re: How long until...
« Reply #45 on: November 22, 2013, 03:53:21 pm »
Then we can really start using the Stepford Wives analogy...
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Offline bikerbart

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Re: How long until...
« Reply #46 on: November 25, 2013, 01:24:31 pm »
Here's a good one. Why are you even on the internet if you are concerned about Privacy?
its better to regret something you have done,than something you havent.Except playing with explosives.

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: How long until...
« Reply #47 on: November 25, 2013, 01:30:50 pm »
Oh, now you did it!!!
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: How long until...
« Reply #48 on: November 25, 2013, 02:49:40 pm »
Here's a good one. Why are you even on the internet if you are concerned about Privacy?

I still have control of what info I wish to distribute here.  I find it unlikely the big G will consider SOHC4 knowledge a threat to them.  I don't mind educating others, which I believe benefits society, and I don't need their DNA beforehand to see if they might possibly misuse the information I provide to the detriment of society.  And that is a fundamental point.  Who is it that has control over individual's words, deeds, and thoughts, the individual, or a government bureaucracy?

 I don't don't do Facebook or Twitter, and I no longer have a youtube account.  Have you read the sign up agreements?  You no longer own or have rights to anything volunteered, words, ideas, art, pictures, etc.  Perhaps that's the sign of the times.  People assign no value to what they do or say, and don't want to be responsible for whatever they do or say, positive or negative, so long as they are taken care of by the all powerful.

But, as you seem happy to keep coming after me personally, rather than discuss the original question, I should probably ask...
Are you an extremist? Are things only black and white in your world?   Or, are you just willing to have everyone sell their remaining liberties, souls, and very being to a centralized agency on the promise you'll be taken care of by them as they see fit?  Are entitlements THAT important to you?

Do you curse the nation's founders each night for creating a government that placed individual freedoms above the desires of government agencies?  Do you curse those that have perverted, subverted the original intent since it's creation?  Do you curse the voters so concerned about entitlements, that they have allowed this to happen?

Are you willing to provide the DNA of yourself, and your family on the promise you'll be taken care of by a disinterested and unresponsible agency?
Check the records and rulings. Time and again the courts have stated that no government agency has responsibility for a particular individual's safety or well being, and they have "sovereign immunity".  They are immune from prosecution due to negligence, incompetence, or malicious intent.  Is this really where you wish to place your trust and confidence?

Regarding actual national health care.  I'll only start to believe it of benefit when the elected officials fall under the same health care rules they apply to the general populace.  Otherwise, its an easy bet on which class of people will get the preferential benefits.

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Offline martin99

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Re: How long until...
« Reply #49 on: November 25, 2013, 03:15:52 pm »
Here's a good one. Why are you even on the internet if you are concerned about Privacy?

Everything's done over the internet these days, and for every new software initiative designed to protect your personal details they'll be some clever b*****d coming along to hack it. I remain concerned about my privacy, and do my best to protect my details online, but I'm under no illusion that it's a lost cause and I certainly don't lose sleep over it.

The subject of TT's post, I thought, was specific to DNA collection and retention, and as mad as some people might think I am I feel this should be a concern for everyone. Being a Brit, the connection with what's happening with your health care reforms doesn't apply to me and I don't pretend to understand it fully either, but it does raise other, ominous spectres in my obviously too idle mind. It may sound science fiction now, but there is IMO enormous potential for misuse of DNA data in the future.

You can stick your head in the sand if you wish, but there will always be twisted, unscrupulous individuals and factions of society who will use such information for their own agenda. Take a look around and you will see in short order that there exists, in our present, examples of repression and bullying by those who feel their way is superior - indeed, in some parts of the world this allegation is leveled at the West, which is viewed as anti-Semitic. Democracy means different things to different people, and some find it positively abhorrent. People will always strive to impress their ideals and perceived superiority upon others. DNA could prove to be a very useful tool for those who wish to suppress freedom of speech and original thought, and have things their own way.

Fcuk, that's too much brain work for one night. Time for my anti-psychotic medication.

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