Topic: Shimmed points plate - still not enough room

[Dr. Noisewater]

So I've been having trouble setting my static timing. TT and others recommended I shim my points plate to get rid of any slop between it and the mounting posts, so I did, and it helped. At least now the timing doesn't change after I run the motor. But, I still don't have enough room to get 1.4 dialed in right. It's almost there, but not quite. It does run better than before, but it's still a little rough. Would it be a bad idea to lengthen the adjustment slots on the plate?

Also, sometimes the idle likes to climb up to about 3k and stay. If I blip the throttle it'll usually fall back down. What would cause it to climb? Then sometimes it hesitates or even dies if I blip the throttle when it's idling around 1600 rpms. For the most part it idles pretty well, but I've played with the idle screw so much over the last few months I'm wondering if it's way out of adjustment. Is there a general place to start at, for instance a full turn out from all the way in? Or something of the sort.

Thanks guys.

[Kickstart]

After you shim your points plate, make sure you check the point gap again... re-adjusting that might give you enough play to dial it in.

Not sure what bike you have, but I think most of our bikes have idle screw stock settings of 7/8 to 1 full turn out from snugly closed (not tightly).

[Dr. Noisewater]

Sorry it's a 75 cb550. I'll check the gap again. Should it grab a little on the feeler gauge? Also should the points be sparking nice and bright or is it a tiny spark? I'm wondering if my gaps are too small..


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[TwoTired]

You can also try moving your shim from the lower right to the lower left, or vice versa.  Yes, the gap should be set after the shim is in place, then the timing.

[Dr. Noisewater]

Yeah I did the shim, set the gaps, then checked the timing. I'll try moving it to the lower left. It's a really tiny gap that I'm shimming btw. I cut a slim piece out of the smallest feeler I had, which is a .002 I think. It's nice and snug though, no wiggle in the plate whatsoever. When you guys shimmed yours, for those who had to, was it a significant gap? I'm just curious. Thanks.


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[bjbuchanan]

Mine took .005 on the lower right boss. Went from a .009 gap to that good .014 for the points

http://www.motorcycleproject.com/motorcycle/text/specs.html

[Dr. Noisewater]

Well I played with it a little more. The gaps were dead on, the shim was nice and tight, so I decided to bust out the dremel and lengthen the adjustment slots. The top slot was much longer than the bottom two, so I lengthened the bottoms to match the top. A little tweaking and both firing marks were dead on. I went to start it and it starts first kick now.

I have one more question though, my 2.3 point is pretty much flashing the whole time, while my 1.4 is rather weak in comparison. If the timing's right and the gaps are good wouldn't they flash equally? It still doesn't rev perfectly, and I'm leaning towards this being the culprit.

[tlbranth]

You may have a bad capacitor on 1-4.

[TwoTired]

Swap the condensers side for side.  See if the sparking difference you notice follows.  If so, you have a dodgy condenser.  Or, there is some crud on the point contacts.  Have you cleaned them?

If the sparking symptom persists, we'll need to know more about your spark plugs, plug cap resistance and spark leads.

[Dr. Noisewater]

Ok I'll switch them tomorrow and see if that helps. I haven't cleaned them, what should I use to clean them? All the points/capacitors are new, but I'm curious to see what happens if I switch them.

The plugs are the recommended NGK's, but the wires are a little rough. We'll see what happens. Thanks again.

[TwoTired]

There is preservative oil/grease on quality new points.  Clean off with alcohol, Brake Kleen, acetone, MEK, carb cleaner, MEK, etc.

Don't use sandpaper unless you plan to replace them soon.  Filing is ok if there are burned deposits on them.  Burnishing is good after filing.  Standard point care.

[Dr. Noisewater]

Ok thanks. What about the felt piece? I thought I remembered reading something about it needing to be lubed. Is that correct? Mine is very dry.


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[bjbuchanan]

You should lube it, it used to be considered part and parcel of a tune up but the specific grease is tough to come by. Personally I use some thick oil or something like that to wet the felt piece. The hondas use a tough advancer that technically doesn't need grease anyway so greasing the felt is added protection

[TwoTired]

Ok thanks. What about the felt piece? I thought I remembered reading something about it needing to be lubed. Is that correct? Mine is very dry.

The felt piece keeps the cam and point set rubbing block lubricated to minimize wear down.  Grease the point cam and the felt piece will store the excess and ooze back onto the cam as required.

[Dr. Noisewater]

Ok good to know. TT Is there a specific lube I should use on the point cam or is heavy oil ok as bj said?


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[TwoTired]

Ok good to know. TT Is there a specific lube I should use on the point cam or is heavy oil ok as bj said?

I'd prefer something with higher viscosity than oil on the theory that the tougher the film thickness between rubbing block and point cam surface, the slower both surfaces will wear, and the less likely it will fling off at high RPM.  I recall buying replacement points that included a little plastic capsule of grease specific for this use.  Looked kinda like Vasoline inside.  Maybe it was, as Vasoline is also generically called petrolatum gel.  I've also read in this forum that Harley shops sell a "point cam grease".  I've been using wheel bearing grease or Lubriplate since those little grease capsules stopped being included.  I don't really know if that is the absolute best for this application.  But, as is popular to say on this forum, "I've noticed no problems".

[bjbuchanan]

I should have clarified, my heavy oil is this super clingy synthetic two stroke oil that I have had around for a while. This stuff sticks and clings like no other, more like grease really

[Black 750K8]

What about chain lube it would stick and lube? Not recommending just asking.

[Don R]

Point grease isn't expensive and is the lube of choice. Other lubes could work but may cause other problems. X2 on the condensers. If you were close I'd give you some to try.

[tlbranth]

I've always used motor oil. Maybe I should reassess. I looked in the shop manual and the owner's manual because I could've sworn motor oil was recommended but there's no mention. Grease does seem to be a smarter choice.

[BobbyR]

I went to a hard core Harley Dealership and bought some points grease since some  HDs still have points. It is a thick dielectric grease. If I knew where it is  I would mail it to you. I went electronic. 

[Vinhead1957]

New Harley's don't have points!   Old ones    Dielectric grease very useful

[Dr. Noisewater]

Cool thanks for all the input guys. There's a Harley shop in town, I'll have to swing by and see if they have any.

But.. I fiddled with the bike a little more today. I was having a hard time getting it to idle again, but after it warmed up and I tweaked it a little it was sounding really good with decent throttle response. The 1.4 point still wasn't sparking quite as strong as 2.3, but I was curious to see how it felt on the road since I hadn't tried it after getting the static timing set right. I set off down the road and it was weak. I checked out the headers to see if all four were hot and #3 was barely luke warm.

I pulled the plugs and they were:
#1: White/brownish?
#2: Black
#3: Black - dead
#4: White

Now my basic understanding of lean/rich leads me to think 1&4 are lean, while 2&3 are rich. Would this in any way relate to my 2.3 point sparking strong and 1.4 sparking weak? Or is this more of a carb issue? I haven't done much with the carbs. I had them rebuilt, but I've yet to vacuum sync them. I'll be ordering a set of vacuum gauges this week.

Anybody have any suggestions on a set of vacuum gauges? I've heard some suck and some are better. I want to get a respectable set that are fairly easy to use, I've heard some have needles that jump all over the place.

Thanks for all the help guys.

[Vinhead1957]

I'm thinking you have a problem with the 2 and 3 spark !    The yellow wired condenser point set

[Dr. Noisewater]

Meaning that you think plugs 2 and 3 don't have a powerful enough spark?

[tlbranth]

Meaning that you think plugs 2 and 3 don't have a powerful enough spark?

Meaning your 2,3 condenser might be bad. Points shouldn't spark much - that's what the condenser's for.

[scottly]

Well I played with it a little more. The gaps were dead on, the shim was nice and tight, so I decided to bust out the dremel and lengthen the adjustment slots. The top slot was much longer than the bottom two, so I lengthened the bottoms to match the top. A little tweaking and both firing marks were dead on. I went to start it and it starts first kick now.

What brand of points are you using? You shouldn't have to modify anything to set the timing with stock quality components.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=59886.0
 

[Dr. Noisewater]

Oh points aren't supposed to spark very much? My 2.3 point is constantly sparking. Thanks for the tip scottly, those crappy points are exactly what I'm using. I can't believe I didn't come across that thread on my own. Does anybody know where to buy legit Honda or TEC points/condensers? I might as well swap them all out.

[HondaMan]

Oh points aren't supposed to spark very much? My 2.3 point is constantly sparking. Thanks for the tip scottly, those crappy points are exactly what I'm using. I can't believe I didn't come across that thread on my own. Does anybody know where to buy legit Honda or TEC points/condensers? I might as well swap them all out.

Your local Honda  shop still can get the TEC points sets. The whole plate is less expensive than buying all the pieces, and the TEC baseplates seldom need the shim treatment.

Be sure to check the 2-3 points set under a timing light: if it "jitters" then you will need to also straighten the points mounting shaft. These can get bent from turning the engine backward with the plugs in place, although the 750 suffers this much more often than the smaller engines.

[Dr. Noisewater]

Cool I'll give my local shop a call in the morning. Hopefully they have what I need. Thanks for the tip.


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[tlbranth]

Oh points aren't supposed to spark very much? My 2.3 point is constantly sparking. Thanks for the tip scottly, those crappy points are exactly what I'm using. I can't believe I didn't come across that thread on my own. Does anybody know where to buy legit Honda or TEC points/condensers? I might as well swap them all out.

Best price you'll find on a TEC points assy is here:

http://www.hondabikes.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=2560016&category=Motorcycles&make=Honda&year=1975&fveh=132839

[Deltarider]

and the TEC baseplates seldom need the shim treatment.

That leaves me wondering what baseplate TT has...

Best price you'll find on a TEC points assy is here:

http://www.hondabikes.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=2560016&category=Motorcycles&make=Honda&year=1975&fveh=132839

Unfortunately their exploded view is not correct. There are supposed to be little spring washers together with the flat washers under the little breakerpoints bolts and bolts that tighten the secundary (2+3) plate.
Please see pic for correct lay out.

[Kickstart]

Best price you'll find on a TEC points assy is here:

http://www.hondabikes.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=2560016&category=Motorcycles&make=Honda&year=1975&fveh=132839

ah... good point.

Dr. Noisewater - your local dealer will most likely quote you the list price.  Make sure you tell them you'd rather buy local, but for $40 bucks you're willing to wait for the mail to arrive.   

Actually, I bet the local dealer will need to order it anyway, so unless they have it in stock or will price match, it's easier to have the part mailed to you anyway.

[Dr. Noisewater]

Yeah I tried to call my local shop this morning, but during the winter they're closed Mondays. I know they're not going to have it in stock, they don't carry anything for older bikes, and they'll probably try to sell me Daiichi's in disguise. I'm disappointed every time I deal with them. I figure I'll just order them online. Now to find the right place to order from..

tlbranth's link seems like a decent deal, but deltarider makes a good point and after clicking the link it says it's for a 750 k5. Is the 750 points assembly interchangeable with the 550?

[tlbranth]

Sorry, I thought I read '75 CB750. I looked up the fiche for the 550 and I see no points listed so I'm not sure what the story is.

[BobbyR]

I don't mean to throw a turd in the punchbowl. Have you considered a PAMCO. I grew up with points. I like a set and forget it setup.

[Dr. Noisewater]

I'd love to go with a modern setup, but this build has far exceeded it's budget so I need to stick to the basics. I'm still looking for a good place online to order the oem assembly. If anyone knows of a place let me know. Thanks.

Anybody know anything about these..?
http://www.cyclepartswarehouse.com/eshopprod_cat_8506-28416_prodtree_f3-0351461-0351509-0352947-0369631-0287_product_1502730.K__S_IGNITION_POINTS.htm

[HondaMan]

Maybe give South Sound Honda a call, once you have the part number. They are VERY helpful, and the best prices I know of with the OEM parts.