Author Topic: Leaking float bowl at gasket, could this mean bad float cutoff?  (Read 8934 times)

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Offline scrichton

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Leaking float bowl at gasket, could this mean bad float cutoff?
« on: November 28, 2013, 11:11:09 AM »
I've pulled my carbs after the bike puked about a gallon of fuel over the garage. Carb 2's float bowl was leaking at the gasket.

Does anyone know if the gasket is bad, but the float shutoff is ok would the bowl leak anyway?

As in should I simply replace the gasket, or should I get stuck further in?

Steven

Offline evanphi

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Re: Leaking float bowl at gasket, could this mean bad float cutoff?
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2013, 11:22:43 AM »
Replacing the gasket (do all four!) should happen regardless.

When you have the bowls off, check the cleanliness of the jets and function of the float.
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Offline scrichton

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Re: Leaking float bowl at gasket, could this mean bad float cutoff?
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2013, 11:28:16 AM »
Knowing the other 3 are fine and the carbs were re-built a year ago by the previous owner, for just now the idea is to do as little as possible so the bike drives, so I'll check all the operations on this carb, then wait until I get a full rebuild kit to do them all at once.

It was more to know if this gasket sits below the shutoff point, therefore the float could be working, but it's always leaking before it shuts off.

Offline martin99

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Re: Leaking float bowl at gasket, could this mean bad float cutoff?
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2013, 11:44:03 AM »
I've pulled my carbs after the bike puked about a gallon of fuel over the garage. Carb 2's float bowl was leaking at the gasket.

Does anyone know if the gasket is bad, but the float shutoff is ok would the bowl leak anyway?

As in should I simply replace the gasket, or should I get stuck further in?

Steven

The folks on here need details if they are going to help you. What bike? What year? What carbs (numbers on side?)?

Build threads:
77 750F2 Refresh Project http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144075.0
TRIBSA http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,160296.0.html

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1958 Norton Model 99
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Offline scrichton

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Re: Leaking float bowl at gasket, could this mean bad float cutoff?
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2013, 11:47:22 AM »
1978 550K3 2nd from left (facing forwards sitting on bike) Kehlins

Offline Bankerdanny

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Re: Leaking float bowl at gasket, could this mean bad float cutoff?
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2013, 11:52:53 AM »
I think you have 3 issues: (1) you absolutely have a sticking float needle if that was working right fuel wouldn't make it to the top of the bowl to leak out (2) you have a clogged overflow tube, that's where the excess fuel should leak from the fuel level should not be higher than the top of the bowl when the float is properly adjusted and working, and (3) the leaking bowl seal.

As a separate note, turn the fuel tap off when you park it for more than a few minutes. If the tap had been off it wouldn't have been able to leak more than a couple ounces.
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Offline scrichton

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Re: Leaking float bowl at gasket, could this mean bad float cutoff?
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2013, 12:04:43 PM »
Yeah, I usually turn the tap off. I'd been in a rush to get out of the garage that night and hadn't been back for a week!

Still not as bad as the other week where I didn't remove the disc lock off my BMW and dropped it!

Offline harisuluv

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Re: Leaking float bowl at gasket, could this mean bad float cutoff?
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2013, 12:41:44 PM »
There is no reason to assume that it is only one issue of many proposed, that is the first step to trying to fix any thing LOGICALLY.

For example, it is possible that:

-The gasket is bad allowing leaks, but the gas level is getting too high because the float is sticking.  In addition, the float height is off and the seat is dirty or worn.

See what I mean?  None of those are mutually exclusive. 

It's like being morbidly obese and then asking yourself if it's because of a horrible diet or lack of any kind of exercise at all.  There is no grounds for it being one or the other, but it could be both.

Offline scrichton

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Re: Leaking float bowl at gasket, could this mean bad float cutoff?
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2013, 12:44:36 PM »
Yes, I thought it would be more than one, but I needed to establish if the float gasket level was below or above what the cutoff point would be.

If it was lower and as the gasket leaks... it could just be the gasket.

Therefore with it being higher I now know to check the other 3 points.

Offline scrichton

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Continuing Issues around Idle and #1 wet plug
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2013, 07:39:30 AM »
Ok. Carbs rebuilt ... new gaskets in, floats were a mile off ... so now at 14mm as per the carb type. Every o-ring replaced .. bodies polished up etc ...

Since this I've also replaced the points and condensers.

Now the issue.

I can get a good idle about 1500rpm Around 1200rpm the rev counter jumps and without the occasional blip it can just simply die.

The fumes out the back are clear, so not too lean not too rich .. smell is good ... plugs correct colour... Valve adjustment all to spec.

I replaced the inlet to head gaskets. Timing and Gap spot on. No leaking bowls .. slides all free ...

So now to the big issue.

Doing a plug chop after having it running cylinder #1 is wet .. not oil ... soot + water / fuel. Testing the lead there is a spark, but I'm starting to think it's not right. Also the idle fluctuation could that be linked to it? I've yet to sync the carbs with my shiny new carb sync (my bmw however is smooth as the proverbial after synching the throttle bodies ).

Just to say. I'm running standard jets, Standard Air Box and filter. Plugs are about 400 miles old. Top end and rings were done and the cam chain was all set accordingly. (yes this bike is slowly becoming the newest parts bin in the world!)

So any opinions on what this could be would be greatly appreciated .. yes the clutch is rattling with the lumpiness of the idle, but with only 20k on the bike I really do doubt primary chain is the issue here. One garage I had it into recently when the MOT was done the guy said .. Basket means primary chain means Syncing.

The main issue is this #1 wet sootiness.

Anyway as I say any help will be very greatly appreciated. Hopefully this can all be resolved soon as I've found a guy who can chrome the tank in exchange for some web work.. plus he's going to respray all the other bits I need done. The sooner I can drive it in there ... the better!

Also before I forget how on earth do the NGK sealed spark plug ends go on or off?

Offline ekpent

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Re: Leaking float bowl at gasket, could this mean bad float cutoff?
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2013, 08:26:15 AM »
Quickest way to tell if the #1 cylinder is firing properly is to simply run it and compare the exhaust temp with the others. With the idle problems etc sounds like it is running on just 3. Could be a bad plug even if its showing spark, have you tried a new one yet ? or even a problem with the one carb still.
  As for the NGK plug end if you just need the threaded part at the top for your cap the larger round fitting simply screws of if you grab it with some pliers if needed.

Offline scrichton

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Re: Leaking float bowl at gasket, could this mean bad float cutoff?
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2013, 08:40:38 AM »
Could I swap leads 1 and 4? As 4 is ok... would this allow me to diagnose if it was coil/lead/cap and plugs... as in they both spark at the same time?

If so I can go and buy yet more plugs!  this has been a kinda expensive month with this bike and my daily driver needing a 24k service ... one to make anyone cry cost wise! £900 to the bastards at BMW

Offline lucky

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Re: Leaking float bowl at gasket, could this mean bad float cutoff?
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2013, 08:51:29 AM »
Ask yourself this:
If there is that much gas on the floor why did it not leak out
of the overflow on the float bowl???

The float itself is almost NEVER at fault.
The float bowl gasket almost never goes bad.

The float needle is the problem 90% of the time.
You cannot polish it into working.

You need to get a new float needle and seat if it is all metal.
If it is a rubber tip needle, then you need to just replace the needle.

Then set the float my measuring the float height like the manual tells you to.


End of problems.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2013, 08:53:16 AM by lucky »

Offline scrichton

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Re: Leaking float bowl at gasket, could this mean bad float cutoff?
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2013, 09:52:03 AM »
The float issue is now sorted... It was bowl number 2 the issue was the gasket was perished and the float height was way off... This is all sorted now. The only issue remaining as described it the wet plug on #1 so it's not a carb issue.. Spark now :(

Offline ekpent

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Re: Leaking float bowl at gasket, could this mean bad float cutoff?
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2013, 08:33:19 PM »
Yes you can switch the 1 and 4 if the wires permit.

Offline scrichton

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Re: Leaking float bowl at gasket, could this mean bad float cutoff?
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2013, 03:18:00 PM »
Well as a quick update... replaced the plugs, cut about half an inch off the lead. All still the same.

Will sit at 1500 ok ish .. anything below churns then dies.

Hopefully the coil arrives tomorrow and over the christmas break I can have another go at this never ending fault finding.

Offline scrichton

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Re: Leaking float bowl at gasket, could this mean bad float cutoff?
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2013, 01:32:56 AM »
Coil pack and new plug lead ends arrived ... so hopefully will find out tonight if that has been the issue ..if not .. off with the carbs again and yet another f'in rebuild.


Offline scrichton

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Re: Leaking float bowl at gasket, could this mean bad float cutoff?
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2013, 03:40:16 PM »
Coil arrived.. Fitted, new leads and caps... Runs like a bucket of spanners, does anyone know any garages or people in Scotland who knows these bikes as I am starting to really draw a blank. The bike simply refuses to get above the 5k mark.

Floats at 14mm needles normal position.. Advancer done. Valves... New points and condensers... Timing spot on. As I say.. Total loss

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Re: Leaking float bowl at gasket, could this mean bad float cutoff?
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2013, 04:20:40 PM »
Coil arrived.. Fitted, new leads and caps... Runs like a bucket of spanners, does anyone know any garages or people in Scotland who knows these bikes as I am starting to really draw a blank. The bike simply refuses to get above the 5k mark.

Floats at 14mm needles normal position.. Advancer done. Valves... New points and condensers... Timing spot on. As I say.. Total loss

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A couple of questions first:
1. You mention new plug caps (at least that's what I think I am reading?), but do not mention their resistance. It also sounds like you installed new coils: what coils are these?
2. When you had the carbs apart: did you perchance remove the idle jets and clean their tiny emulsifier holes? Likewise, for the mainjets: did you remove those emulsifier tubes and clean those tiny holes out, too? If the former are even partially plugged with lime or other deposits, the engine will not idle well. If the latter's are plugged 10% of their holes diameters (with crud), the engine won't rev past about 5000 RPM.
3. Did you replace the condensors? If they are old, they leak (electrically speaking). This causes weak spark through the whole RPM range, which translates to poor idle, wet plugs, and no revs up high, for lack of fuel burn rate.

The rattling sounds come primarily from the cylinders not pulling equally. It makes the primary and cam chains jump around and the tranny gears will clatter.
So, #4: what is the compression of the 4 cylinders?
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Offline scrichton

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Re: Leaking float bowl at gasket, could this mean bad float cutoff?
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2013, 04:26:46 PM »
The coils were standard replacement with 5k NGK caps. The condensers and points were both replaced then statically timed after the advancer plate was thoroughly cleaned. I think it's gonna be carbs off again unfortunately.

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Offline scrichton

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Re: Leaking float bowl at gasket, could this mean bad float cutoff?
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2013, 04:27:38 PM »
The compression is all fine, I just did the valve guides head gasket and rings 300 miles ago

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Re: Leaking float bowl at gasket, could this mean bad float cutoff?
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2013, 05:19:21 PM »
Hmmm...then, this sounds suspiciously like low float bowl levels. If the fuel level is about 2mm low, the idle jets' wells are not sitting in deep-enough fuel levels, and the engine speed has to pick up a little bit to make them able to get enough fuel to sustain low-speed idle. Another thing to look for: make sure the bowl vent hoses are not kinked or blocked (or even missing altogether, but this causes troubles out on the road, not when sitting still) and the bowl vents are all clear and clean.

When you [re]check the floats, look at the little float tang (arm) where the shutoff valve gets pressed closed. Look for a tiny dimple right there. The brass is very soft, and the stainless 18-8 float valve plunger is hard and abrasive (i.e., not polished), so they wear a little dimple. This makes them tend to drive the float level first too deep, then when it starts to refill, it sticks at a slight angle and holds the valve shut, making it fill too low. This process repeats back & forth. I have sometimes diagnosed it by tapping smartly on the the offending carb bowls with a small hammer and wood dowel: if it straightens things up for a minute or so and then the problem returns, the floats are 'sticking', so to speak. File and polish off those little dimples, if this is happening to yours.

On the CB750 carbs prior to the PD series, this is a malady that happens to 100% of them after about 10k miles. On the PD carbs, it takes a little longer. On the 500/550 carbs, it takes about 7000 miles to form the dimples, because the float valve tips are smaller yet. ;)
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Offline harisuluv

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Re: Leaking float bowl at gasket, could this mean bad float cutoff?
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2013, 08:30:26 AM »
scrichton:  If and when you do get the carbs off again--Take a lot of pictures.

You would be really surprised what people can tell by just looking at some pictures of your mounting, float levels, line routing, etc.  Multiple angles.  It will make it easier for others to help you.

Offline scrichton

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Re: Leaking float bowl at gasket, could this mean bad float cutoff?
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2014, 04:25:20 PM »
Ok couple of quick questions before I tear into it all again.

I'll re-iterate the issues.

#1 a little colder on the exhaust. Idle wavers and cannot go below 1250rpm.

#4 seems hotter than the rest.

Under load the bike splutters and won't rev above 5k. It's like it's tugged back. So Appears to be lean.

I have a Marshall / JAMA baffled 4:1 exhaust.

It's a 77 CB550, so am I correct in thinking that the floats are to be 14.5mm measured just touching the top of the uncompressed needle on the valve?

Also what is the normal air screw out setting for these? I am 1 3/4 just now to get the results I have. Less there is nothing, more then the exhaust stinks of fuel.


Would the Exhaust require higher jetting

All breathers are connected. Airbox is sealed tight and new head to manifold gaskets have been put in.

I have also replaced the coil for 1/4 and caps with 5k ones as per the ones replaced. The points and condensers have been done and static timing was set as per instructions. The advancer was also cleaned and lubed and operates smoothly.

If at all there is anyone in Scotland on the forum with any experience with these carbs please contact me.

Steven

Offline scrichton

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Re: Leaking float bowl at gasket, could this mean bad float cutoff?
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2014, 03:21:52 AM »
Ok so carbs were off again, double / triple checked the floats, ran wire through the jets plus liberal carb cleaner on there, checked timing spark etc ..

Removed the inline fuel filter so there is nothing in the way.

Now I have number 2 cylinder stone cold, the same lumpiness and above 7k the bike hesitates (at least I can get above 40 now)


I'll be honest I've pulled so many blanks now.

The only other thing is jets, I run a 4 into 1 JAMA, this is a small bore system, not a MAC drainpipe! I have  set of 115's in a bag, could this be closer to the actual jetting required? I think the exhaust is closer to the 4 branch of the F than anything else. Also there is no top plate on the Airbox (this is long gone) the filter is jammed in with a rubber stop to make sure it's not leaking in the airbox itself.


Failing any new insights I think I'm going to sell this thing, that's nearly 3k of spending on a bike that has been driven 327 miles over a year and I'm really loosing any hope I could do any length of journey on it.

Steven