Author Topic: Bronze Welding for monoshock conversion?  (Read 4349 times)

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Offline Gonzowerke

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Bronze Welding for monoshock conversion?
« on: December 01, 2013, 08:07:34 AM »
Extremely tight budget, want to brace the 750K8's  swingarm and convert it to monoshock. I can swing the equipment for bronze welding, and have read that it is more than adequate in strength, but I have no actual experience with it. Does any one out there fooled around with it?
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Offline voxonda

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Re: Bronze Welding for monoshock conversion?
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2013, 08:38:02 AM »
Need to get your strength from the construction, not the welds. Bronze is strong enough when done right.
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Offline 754

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Re: Bronze Welding for monoshock conversion?
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2013, 08:47:44 AM »
I will recommend that. Tight budget and monoshock conversion..do not go together well..

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Offline simon#42

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Re: Bronze Welding for monoshock conversion?
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2013, 08:59:23 AM »
strength comes from good design .

Offline LesterPiglet

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Re: Bronze Welding for monoshock conversion?
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2013, 09:13:00 AM »
Seems ok to Ariel.

Ariel Atom bronze welding
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Offline 754

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Re: Bronze Welding for monoshock conversion?
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2013, 09:16:09 AM »
That is one good looking weld..
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Offline FunJimmy

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Re: Bronze Welding for monoshock conversion?
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2013, 09:45:41 AM »
I purchased an original Dresda swingarm for my Interceptor and when striped for powder coating, discovered that ALL the welds where fillet brazed.
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Offline Greg H

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Re: Bronze Welding for monoshock conversion?
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2013, 11:09:10 AM »
Extremely tight budget, want to brace the 750K8's  swingarm and convert it to monoshock. I can swing the equipment for bronze welding, and have read that it is more than adequate in strength, but I have no actual experience with it. Does any one out there fooled around with it?
I've used Brazing /Bronze Welding for all the frame mods and wheelie bars on my project build . I've been a certified welder for over 40yrs now and my advice to you would be if you are unsure of your capabilities in this field please leave the job to someone who has proven competency in this field . Regards Greg "H".

Offline Gonzowerke

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Re: Bronze Welding for monoshock conversion?
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2013, 01:40:44 PM »
Thanks guys.

Lester, I have seen that video before, it is a nice job. That guy must do miles a day, and can just phone it in. They also use a system that atomizes liquid flux into the acetylene line, so you don't have to stop and dip.
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Online Tintop

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Re: Bronze Welding for monoshock conversion?
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2013, 03:26:42 PM »
Nothing wrong with bronze welding, both my sidecar frames are done that way.  Would echo the advice that the strength is in the design, and if your unsure of your skill set get a pro to do it.
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Offline scottly

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Re: Bronze Welding for monoshock conversion?
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2013, 06:33:36 PM »
Bronze welding was also used by Colin Seeley and the Rickman Bros. From what I've heard and read, welding the Reynolds 531 weakened it due to the heat required to melt the base material. Brazing is not truly welding, as it does not melt the base material, only the lower temp filler rod. The bronze rods used by Seeley were "type CZ 7 from Delta LTD".
The beads on the Seeley are very wide and thick compared to the thickness of the tubing joined, so the load is spread over the weaker, but thicker bronze.
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Offline dragracer

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Re: Bronze Welding for monoshock conversion?
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2013, 06:38:45 PM »
We used a 1994 Katana 600 swingarm set up on an F model. Easiest modification you can make without breaking the bank as those arms are cheap with very little welding required except to the frame for the top shock mount. I would also recommend cutting on the original center stand crossbrace and replace it with mild steel or chromemoly because you will not use this cross brace to mount the brackets for the lower pivot link. The Katana arm is steel so if you want to extend it any, its easier for a novice wleder to do than if it was aluminum.

Why use the stock arm when its not really designed for a monoshock?? The Katana arm is already monoshock.

Offline dragracer

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Re: Bronze Welding for monoshock conversion?
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2013, 06:54:17 PM »
Katana's are plentiful and if you can get your hands on a bare frame, you can unbolt the top shock plate, weld your own tubing onto the rear of your engine cradle,weld the shock plate onto that tubing and your done for the upper shock mount. You don't have to use a donor plate- you can make your own for the upper shock mount. Then just replace the tubing across the back of the frame for the center stand and replace it with stronger tubing, weld two pieces of angle iron onto the tubing, drill holes into the angle iron before welding and you've now got your lower pivot point done. If i recall correctly, the pivot bolt for the Honda arm and the bolt for the Katana arm were the same diameter. Some modification might have to be done to the oil tank with a hammer- Lol. Also relocation of a few wires might be needed. Overall, this was a simple job that anyone can do with a small welder and minimal welding skills. 

Offline johno

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Re: Bronze Welding for monoshock conversion?
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2013, 03:29:09 AM »
Hi dragracer,     how much longer is the katana swingarm than the cb 750  ????
cheers johno
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Offline dragracer

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Re: Bronze Welding for monoshock conversion?
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2013, 11:52:00 AM »
Hi dragracer,     how much longer is the katana swingarm than the cb 750  ????
cheers johno

Johnno,

The arm you see on this bike was extended. I do have a stock Katana arm i could measure and let you know.

Offline dragracer

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Re: Bronze Welding for monoshock conversion?
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2013, 09:31:03 PM »
Johno.

Here are some pics of a stock Katana arm. I don't have the pivot link or shocks handy right now.

I apologize to you GONZO for posting on your thread- i'm hoping this might help you in your decision making process. You can get used KAt arms on Ebay with shock and all links for less than $100. The wider arm allows you to install a wider rim and tire also. You may need to buy an offset front sprocket from CycleEx to keep the chain alignment correct- that what i used on the street F model and on my drag only F model.

Offline dragracer

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Re: Bronze Welding for monoshock conversion?
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2013, 09:35:15 PM »
Another

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Bronze Welding for monoshock conversion?
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2013, 11:24:52 PM »
I'm not too sure what you are referring to as a "Katana" but In Australia, and i suspect the USA, the 1100 and 750 Katana had twin shocks, on the other hand the GS 750 es and ef {GSX in AuS} had a monoshock and similar looking swingarm to the one you show there, its not a Katana arm if its monoshock....

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=1100+Katana&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=UoadUqXGOqSXiAfL1IDwCg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=659#q=Suzuki+1100+Katana&spell=1&tbm=isch
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Offline johno

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Re: Bronze Welding for monoshock conversion?
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2013, 02:53:28 AM »
Thank you dragracer , you have been a big help. :D
I went to the shed and measured a 77F arm and the front width looks good as the inside frame width is 233mm or 9 11/64 in your lingo, the katana arm is about the same but the good thing for me is its 2 1/2 inchs longer at 22 inch than the 18 1/2 inch honda arm.

Retro I spoke with 4 MC wreckers today in Melb, Syd and Brisbane and they all said the same thing , in US its katana where here its GSX 600  "F"

Thanks boys  ;D    johno
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Offline dragracer

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Re: Bronze Welding for monoshock conversion?
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2013, 10:31:54 PM »
Yes guys, its a GSX600. Lol. But labeled Katana here in the USA. 600, 750 and 1100's Kats all were monoshock here. The good thing is the arms are steel. You can extend one if you are proficient in welding and can source the correct sizing rectangular tubing. If you extend it in the angular area, you effectively widen the arm towards the rear, at the axle adjusters. Thats how we did it to be sure we had room a 200 tire if we so desired. We only used a 180 on the wide GSXR rim.

Offline dragracer

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Re: Bronze Welding for monoshock conversion?
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2013, 10:41:44 PM »
Oh, one more thing, not sure if the picture shows it but be mindful that dog bones are curved on the Kat arm and not straight like the GSXR. If you want to lower the bike, you will need to work with the Kat bones by lenghtening them to lower the bike or make your own. An oil cooled or water cooled GSXR shock wit hthe canister might be better than the stock Katana shock also. A more tunable Busa or GSXR1000 shock may not work due to the "knuckle" on top- it will interfer with the stock oil tank. Last thing to remember is the axle. We didn't use a stock Honda wheel so whatever wheel you do use, more bushing/spacer may have to be fabricated. Good luck guys and if you pursue this modification, please post pics.

Offline dragracer

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Re: Bronze Welding for monoshock conversion?
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2013, 10:48:03 PM »
Hey fellas, click on this link to see a thread i started on the forum when we first put the monoshock arm on the F model. It does show a bit more detail than when other pics i posted on this thread. I hope it helps to give more details. I don't know what happened to my earlier construction pics.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=62493.0

Offline johno

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Re: Bronze Welding for monoshock conversion?
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2013, 02:22:33 PM »
Cheers for your help dragracer,
 after reading your thread I thought this could be the way to go so I purchased a complete
Suzy back end arm , wheel, brakes, master and caliper , pedals etc  complete yesterday from ebay for the same price of just buying the chrome moly to make a swing arm, $225..............bloody bargain ;D ;D ;D
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Offline dragracer

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Re: Bronze Welding for monoshock conversion?
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2013, 01:13:42 PM »
Cheers for your help dragracer,
 after reading your thread I thought this could be the way to go so I purchased a complete
Suzy back end arm , wheel, brakes, master and caliper , pedals etc  complete yesterday from ebay for the same price of just buying the chrome moly to make a swing arm, $225..............bloody bargain ;D ;D ;D

Glad i could be of some help Johnno. I hope our original poster can find some benefit to this as well. Used Katana parts are plentiful and very cheap here in the USA. Those bikes were the bottom tear of the sport bike category in comparison to the GSX-R and got no respect although they were very good bikes in my opinion.

If you can buy the upper shock mount off the bike, i would suggest you get that as well. It will help you in setting up the upper shock mounting point- just extend it on each side to match the frame width and you're done. Please remember what i mentioned in one of my posts about the lower center stand cross brace. This part will fail if you try to use the original steel. You must cut this out and replace it with either chromemoly or mild steel and reweld the center stand mounts as you will use these to connect the lower shock pivot to the frame. We were not aware of how fragile this original steel was and found out the hard way. The bike started to bottom out and we could understand why. At first we thought the shock was bad and put on another but the bike still seemed to drag on the rear fender more than when the bike was first built. A quick check while the bike was elevated revealed that the steel brace was multi-layered and was literally peeling apart when we attached the pivot. We decided instead of bracing it up, to just cut the piece out and put in a new one. I pulled the motor out to make it easier for the welder to replace the bracing. I suggest you put in a dummy set of lower half cases and bolt it down before welding as the heat might pull in the frame a bit at the lower rear motor mount. I had to jack the frame out a bit to get the engine back in due to this issue. Not a real problem but i just wanted you to be aware of what i experienced.

Attached you will see a picture of my KZ 1000 mono shock conversion illustrating where the lower pivot is mounted. The Honda will be mounted in the same manner. When welding your upper shock mount to the frame, you need to set your ride height first to determine exact where on the frame to weld in the cross brace. If you are a good fabricator /welder, you can make a plate thats adjustable, up or down, on which to mount the upper shock brackets.

I must apologize again to GONZO for stepping on his post. I'm simply trying to offer my experience on a mono shock set up in hopes of saving any interested party a lot of research time and in particular- MONEY. Lol. As Johnno has shared, you can buy all the used parts for much less than the material it would take to build an arm. Plus its all is compatible if you get the rear wheel, spacers and brake set up. All thats left is welding in the upper shock mount, gettting an offset sprocket and a longer chain. Umm, don't forget about the caliper support arm- modify the Kat arm or make one yourself. Be sure to get the brake line too- assuming you having hydraulic rear brakes to begin with (F model). If not, get the Kat right side Kat brake/foot peg set up  and modify those. Don't forget the left one to match
« Last Edit: December 08, 2013, 01:50:51 PM by dragracer »