Topic: Stud problem

[captain rats]

I misread my torque wrench when tightening down my head. One of the studs in the engine keeps turning with some resistance but not enough to reach 14 ft pounds. Have put red loctite in and on it and hopefully it holds so can get the required 14 foot pounds into it.



If not can I liquid steel or araldite it in?

[Pecantree]

If I had installed new studs and missed torquing one down to 8 ft lbs. Would bottom the stud and torque.
If these are original studs I would curse, grab a beer and turn off the lights and leave it for a day or two.
Come back later and pull everything and put a timesert in the block.
Loctite doesn't create new threads.
Courting more work later by not doing it right  this go around.
Good luck.
Steve

[bjbuchanan]

I misread my torque wrench when tightening down my head. One of the studs in the engine keeps turning with some resistance but not enough to reach 14 ft pounds. Have put red loctite in and on it and hopefully it holds so can get the required 14 foot pounds into it.



If not can I liquid steel or araldite it in?

You can try but it is asking for problems at worst and leakage at the minimum. I just rebuilt my 750 and I had to run 18 ft lbs before I could kill any weapage at my head gasket. Stock studs were used. I think your gasket is going to weep oil from the get go now

Helicoil/timesert is the way to go IMO

[martin99]

These old Hondas don't need a lot of encouragement to leak even if you torque them to book spec.

As has been said, take time to gather yourself then pull it down and helicoil that thread.

[captain rats]

Ok so update,

I am getting between 14-15 foot pounds of torque on the stud (clicks off at 14 but doesn't hit 15 and don't want to push my luck).

Hondamans book says 13.7-15.2, I am thinking of running it. Thoughts?

Studs are standard.

[madmtnmotors]

 I am thinking of running it. Thoughts?

I think you will have a hard time finding anyone here to support this position. What motor?  If we are talking 750 then you already have the motor out (unless the frame tubes are cut). If you put it back in and have problems (likely) then you get to take the motor back out and fix it anyway.

Once you start the engine, and all that aluminum heats up and starts to expand, you will be exerting more force on the questionable stud just by warming up the engine. From what you say this stud is already torqued to maximum (since any more torque causes the stud to "spin"). If (or more likely "when") this stud pulls out you would now have an unevenly torqued head that could ultimately lead to a warped head. 

Is it worth the risk?  Only you can answer that. If it were mine, I would want to solve the problem. Of course this can cause other problems too, such as additional stripped or broken bolts during disassembly/reassembly.... 

Which is half the fun! 

[Black 750K8]

Quit looking for the answer you want. What about the retorque later? You all ready know what you need to do. Also I would go with the timesert over the helicoil.

[captain rats]

Yeah good advice everyone.

So the standard torque settings for heads are not really enough is what you are saying.

I will look out for these "timeserts" as I had never heard of them prior to this. Helicoils yes, what makes the timesert better?

[madmtnmotors]

So the standard torque settings for heads are not really enough is what you are saying.

Still grasping for validation? What you described is an obvious problem. Engine studs aren't supposed to "spin". What I hear everyone saying is you should probably fix it. Something is broken...

I will look out for these "timeserts" as I had never heard of them prior to this. Helicoils yes, what makes the timesert better?

http://bit.ly/RzjgAZ

[captain rats]

"Still grasping for validation?"

No. I think the thread is clear.

I think this sums up the fact I am not looking for validation.

"I will look out for these "timeserts" as I had never heard of them prior to this. Helicoils yes, what makes the timesert better?"

What torque should be I looking for when I tighten these down then  17-18?

[madmtnmotors]

What torque should be I looking for when I tighten these down then  17-18?

I've never had a problem with stock specification torque values when using stock studs that are anchored firmly in the block and do not "spin". The issue you described indicates a problem when approaching this value:

One of the studs in the engine keeps turning with some resistance but not enough to reach 14 ft pounds

The fact that "red locktite" APPEARS to have permitted you to reach 14 ftlbs of torque does not compensate for the additional forces that will be exerted on this stud when all that aluminum begins to expand. I'm surprised that the threads in the engine case did not come out with the stud when you removed it to apply the red locktite.

Red locktite can be difficult to remove and often requires some heat to coax the fastener out. Not too much though, remember you're working with aluminum. Oxy-acetylene is NOT recommended. There are some threads here that discuss the application of heat for the removal of fasteners that have been anchored with red locktite.

One final thought: Did you actually see the stud "spin", or is that just how it "felt"? Torque wrenches are often the ratchet type and are used with a socket, making it difficult (if not impossible) to see the fastener being torqued. I'm wondering if this offending stud may have begun to "stretch" as opposed to "spin". How many turns did you exert on the head nut after getting close to final torque before deciding to stop? 1/4 turn? 1/2 turn? Four or five complete turns? If the stud was stretching instead of spinning then that stud may be near it's service limit. This would also imply that the threads in the engine case may not be failing after all. Careful inspection of the threads within the engine case can sometimes reveal their condition. When threads in aluminum begin to fail they will often exhibit some sort of galling, and/or a raised "ring" of material at the top of the hole where the threads have begun to pull out.

Just a thought....

Keep us posted.

[iron_worker]

I haven't read any in regards to saying that timeserts are so much better than helicoils. The timesert has flanged end that goes into a counter bore that you make with the kit's tool. The only problem I see with that is that you have to ensure that this face is  not protruding about your gasket surface at all or it will tend to hold your cylinders up off of the block and probably cause a leak. I think in this case I would recommend a helicoil. I think they are cheaper and I believe just as strong and no flanged face to worry about sticking up so long as you insert the coil in far enough.

Anyway, the problem in running an engine with a stud that is known to "spin" in the block is that the thread is damaged. When the engine is running the combustion pressures can be on the order of 1500 PSI. It is the stud's job to hold this force and keep tension between the head/cylinders/block to prevent combustion gases from escaping and also to help seal oil (in the case of these bikes). By having one stud that is marginal you are almost certainly going to get more flex in this area as the stud will most certainly not be providing adequate holding force.

The studs are under tremendous forces while running. I wouldn't risk it. It may seem like a lot of work now but I promise you pulling the engine later and doing it then is more work.

IW

[markb]

I think in this case I would recommend a helicoil.

+1

[captain rats]

Thanks for all the help guys. I really mean it. Just to be clear I am definitely re-threading this stud thread.

I appreciate the feedback on helicoil v timeserts. I am leaning towards helicoil at the moment.

I was going to torque the rest down before I pull the cylinder just to be sure no others are suspect. I don't want to have to do it again.

I assume if I go to 17 foot pounds without dramas then I could safely say there are no others requiring helicoil?

The engine is a 812cc told it was wiseco with a webcam 41a cam.  If that makes a difference.

[bjbuchanan]

Thanks for all the help guys. I really mean it. Just to be clear I am definitely re-threading this stud thread.

I appreciate the feedback on helicoil v timeserts. I am leaning towards helicoil at the moment.

I was going to torque the rest down before I pull the cylinder just to be sure no others are suspect. I don't want to have to do it again.

I assume if I go to 17 foot pounds without dramas then I could safely say there are no others requiring helicoil?

The engine is a 812cc told it was wiseco with a webcam 41a cam.  If that makes a difference.

I originally went with the Hondaman book recommendation and had to pull my engine because of immediate dripping from my head gasket. I tore it back down and retorqued to 18 in small steps and now I have no leaks at all.

I have about 60 miles on my 836 rebuild with generic NE brand gaskets (I permatex copper coated the head gasket) and not a single drop of oil. I know this doesn't mean it won't eventually leak but as of now it is bone dry.

[LesterPiglet]

I've never used a torque wrench and never had a leak. Work that out.
The biggest job I've done is replacing a few gears and cam chain tensioner so maybe it's important in other areas.

[HondaMan]

Thanks for all the help guys. I really mean it. Just to be clear I am definitely re-threading this stud thread.

I appreciate the feedback on helicoil v timeserts. I am leaning towards helicoil at the moment.

I was going to torque the rest down before I pull the cylinder just to be sure no others are suspect. I don't want to have to do it again.

I assume if I go to 17 foot pounds without dramas then I could safely say there are no others requiring helicoil?

The engine is a 812cc told it was wiseco with a webcam 41a cam.  If that makes a difference.

Yikes!
I'd recommend HD studs with that combination: the 812cc pistons are often 9.8:1 compression, and while the 41a cam will lower that a little bit, it also "starts its show" at about 7500 RPM, so you will likely spend a lot of time in the high RPM band. When that happens, having the 20 ft-lbs of the HD studs will help keep the leaks from starting.

When I repair those case holes with Helicoils, I often have to use 2 of them. They don't seem to offer long enough ones in 8mm size. Set them in with Red Loctite, let it dry overnight. Then install the stud(s), using no Loctite, but a dab of grease or anti-seize so they won't corrode into place and take out the Helicoils at a later teardown date.

At least, that's my 2 cents' worth?

[markb]

Good advice.  That sounds like the ultimate solution.