Topic: Does it matter how I install piston rings?

[specialone70]

A while ago I rebuilt my engine (cb750k8), which included new piston rings and honed cylinders. After I got it put back together I had some issues that I'm now pretty sure is cause by oil not circulating. I wasn't around when my dad installed the piston rings and I'm not sure how they were installed. I'd never heard that it matters how the piston rings are installed (other than the oil ring at the bottom) until I talked to a buddy recently, and now I'm suspecting that could be the issue. So again, does it matter how they go in? and if they're in wrong could that be the reason the oil won't circulate?
Here's the link to my old thread initially asking what could be wrong with the bike:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132075.0
Thanks!

[Powderman]

Other than making sure the rings are in their right land and right side up and gaps clocked correctly(not important), then no. But I don't think your oil circulation has anything to do with the rings.
What exactly are the issues you speak of?

[specialone70]

I don't know that they're in the right slot or the right way up since I didn't put them in. What would happen if they're in upside down or in the wrong slot? All the info about the issues I'm having are in that link I posted above.
Thanks!

[Powderman]

You could have done something during assembly to restrict oil supply, but it would have nothing to do with the piston rings. If there was not sufficient oil supply it would start to seize the motor, which is what it sounds like from the symptoms you described. If this is the case, riding the 15 miles would have done significant damage to at least the rings/pistons/cylinder walls. Only way to tell is to look in the bores for scoring in the walls or pull a head and see what you have.

[fdbrat]

Two threads for the same issue. Lets keep it to one. It makes us dizzy.

[cakey]

Did you prime the oil pump with oil or lube so that the oil would start circulating in the engine?

[cakey]

Actually edit that. I am not sure if you need to if you haven't split the cases and split the oil pump for inspection? Someone else might know.

[specialone70]

Nobody has really answered my question for this thread: how am I supposed to install the piston rings? How do I know which one goes on top and which way goes up?

P.S. fdbrat is probably right, let's keep other comments about my engine issues in my original thread. Thanks!

[bryanj]

All markings face upwards
Chrome ring top
Black ring 2nd

[cakey]

Each ring gap 120 degrees apart like the piece sign

[Powderman]

Each ring gap 120 degrees apart like the piece sign

This has been proven to be a wives tale. The rings are constantly moving during operation and spin in their grooves. The only time they will be at 120* is on initial assembly. they may rotate to where the gaps line up within minutes after firing the engine.
The rings normally have a dot that will designate top side. Peace sign has 4 legs.

[strynboen]

have seen many rings with  this side up..marked..all 3 rings..not only oilrings

[Powderman]

have seen many rings with  this side up..marked..all 3 rings..not only oil rings

I've never seen a 3pc. oil ring that mattered which side up it was, only the compression rings.

[cakey]

Each ring gap 120 degrees apart like the piece sign

This has been proven to be a wives tale. The rings are constantly moving during operation and spin in their grooves. The only time they will be at 120* is on initial assembly. they may rotate to where the gaps line up within minutes after firing the engine.
The rings normally have a dot that will designate top side. Peace sign has 4 legs.

I have heard that they move around but just followed the Honda manual.

4legs LOL now that's embarrassing I will need to find a better descriptor. Maybe I just wasn't old enough in the 70's to stick it in my memory.

[martin99]

Each ring gap 120 degrees apart like the piece sign

This has been proven to be a wives tale. The rings are constantly moving during operation and spin in their grooves. The only time they will be at 120* is on initial assembly. they may rotate to where the gaps line up within minutes after firing the engine.
The rings normally have a dot that will designate top side. Peace sign has 4 legs.

I have heard that they move around but just followed the Honda manual.

4legs LOL now that's embarrassing I will need to find a better descriptor. Maybe I just wasn't old enough in the 70's to stick it in my memory.

Got to jump in and defend you here Cakey - if you include that three-piece oil ring, your four-leg descriptor is more or less spot on!

[Powderman]

Well I was around in the 70's and remember the peace (not piece) movement vividly. Ok so maybe the upper one is not a "leg" but it has 4 points of contact in the circle and they are not 120* out. And if you are counting the 3pc oil ring then there are 5 gaps.   Peace

[martin99]

Well actually.........ok I give up, you win

Peace, Bro

[quietlikeachurch]

mercedes-benz logo?  120°…

[lucky]

The MUST be installed correctly. End of story.

[KJ790]

The MUST be installed correctly. End of story.

Agreed, however if they are not installed correctly it will not affect your oil circulation. If you install the rings incorrectly you can have low compression and likely burn oil, but it will not affect your oil pump.

[AJK]

The MUST be installed correctly. End of story.

Agreed, however if they are not installed correctly it will not affect your oil circulation. If you install the rings incorrectly you can have low compression and likely burn oil, but it will not affect your oil pump.

+1 with Lucky here. They have to be done right.

If the compression rings are not installed facing the correct way. I.e. If you have the markings faced down, instead of scraping the oil & sealing the gas, it will push the residual oil up into the combustion chamber & aid consumption. The rings have a taper on the ends depending on ring design, for the purpose of not only maintaining compression on the power stroke, but also to scrape the oil.

So the dots must face upwards.

Regarding gaps, i like to have no gaps on the thrust side of the piston (i.e. the inlet side). With the oil control rings, i like to keep the main oil mesh ring with its gap in the middle on the exhaust side centerline, with each oil control retainer gap say 45 deg off that either side.

With the compression rings, i have perhaps 150 degrees apart, again centered on the exhaust side centerline, so i dont have any gaps on the thrust side (inlet side) of the piston.

Others will disagree, and thats cool. Even the manual might say something different?? I just ran in my engine, plenty of compression, plenty of go, and no smoke. Pretty much always done it this way with success.

As for the theory of the rings spinning. How much do they spin? The reason you have dowls is really for two strokes due to the presence of the ports. In 4 strokes, there is no ports, so no reason for dowls, but do the rings really spin?

[bryanj]

Yes, a marine engine firm called Doxford proved in the 60's that in their engine which had a 1.00 meter bore and ran at 110 rpm flat out the rings span round the piston at 5-6 times per hour-----I was at marine college then and we were give the experimental engine so that's how i know

[ekpent]

One of many articles for debate among the tech heads, little bit on ring gap also.    http://www.diagnosticengineers.org/journal_%20articles/Ring%20Gaps%20vs%20Knowledge%20Gaps.php

[Powderman]

The MUST be installed correctly. End of story.

Agreed, however if they are not installed correctly it will not affect your oil circulation. If you install the rings incorrectly you can have low compression and likely burn oil, but it will not affect your oil pump.

+1 with Lucky here. They have to be done right.

If the compression rings are not installed facing the correct way. I.e. If you have the markings faced down, instead of scraping the oil & sealing the gas, it will push the residual oil up into the combustion chamber & aid consumption. The rings have a taper on the ends depending on ring design, for the purpose of not only maintaining compression on the power stroke, but also to scrape the oil.

So the dots must face upwards.

Regarding gaps, i like to have no gaps on the thrust side of the piston (i.e. the inlet side). With the oil control rings, i like to keep the main oil mesh ring with its gap in the middle on the exhaust side centerline, with each oil control retainer gap say 45 deg off that either side.

With the compression rings, i have perhaps 150 degrees apart, again centered on the exhaust side centerline, so i dont have any gaps on the thrust side (inlet side) of the piston.

Others will disagree, and thats cool. Even the manual might say something different?? I just ran in my engine, plenty of compression, plenty of go, and no smoke. Pretty much always done it this way with success.

As for the theory of the rings spinning. How much do they spin? The reason you have dowls is really for two strokes due to the presence of the ports. In 4 strokes, there is no ports, so no reason for dowls, but do the rings really spin?

The rings are in constant movement as the motor runs so they will spin complete circles and more and may change directions and circle that way. That is why alignment of gaps is an old wives tale. Extensive testing was done when some manufacturer/builders were blamed for engine damage that was contributed by the improper gapping of the rings when the motors were opened up and the gaps were in line (by coincidence). The builders swore they had properly gapped the ring spacing. It was proven that the installed ring gap was only spaced that way for a few seconds after firing.

I posted this reply to your post before reading the replies above yours. The attached link is good info and explains exactly what I have learned in the past.

[AJK]

The MUST be installed correctly. End of story.

Agreed, however if they are not installed correctly it will not affect your oil circulation. If you install the rings incorrectly you can have low compression and likely burn oil, but it will not affect your oil pump.

+1 with Lucky here. They have to be done right.

If the compression rings are not installed facing the correct way. I.e. If you have the markings faced down, instead of scraping the oil & sealing the gas, it will push the residual oil up into the combustion chamber & aid consumption. The rings have a taper on the ends depending on ring design, for the purpose of not only maintaining compression on the power stroke, but also to scrape the oil.

So the dots must face upwards.

Regarding gaps, i like to have no gaps on the thrust side of the piston (i.e. the inlet side). With the oil control rings, i like to keep the main oil mesh ring with its gap in the middle on the exhaust side centerline, with each oil control retainer gap say 45 deg off that either side.

With the compression rings, i have perhaps 150 degrees apart, again centered on the exhaust side centerline, so i dont have any gaps on the thrust side (inlet side) of the piston.

Others will disagree, and thats cool. Even the manual might say something different?? I just ran in my engine, plenty of compression, plenty of go, and no smoke. Pretty much always done it this way with success.

As for the theory of the rings spinning. How much do they spin? The reason you have dowls is really for two strokes due to the presence of the ports. In 4 strokes, there is no ports, so no reason for dowls, but do the rings really spin?

The rings are in constant movement as the motor runs so they will spin complete circles and more and may change directions and circle that way. That is why alignment of gaps is an old wives tale. Extensive testing was done when some manufacturer/builders were blamed for engine damage that was contributed by the improper gapping of the rings when the motors were opened up and the gaps were in line (by coincidence). The builders swore they had properly gapped the ring spacing. It was proven that the installed ring gap was only spaced that way for a few seconds after firing.

I posted this reply to your post before reading the replies above yours. The attached link is good info and explains exactly what I have learned in the past.

Thanks Powderman,

On that logic, then what is the point of watching where you put the gaps? If they are going to rotate anyway & it really is an old wives tale.

I think you might have forgotten to attach the link.

I'm not discrediting your info, because every time i've pulled the pistons out of an engine i've built, i've never bothered or remembered to check the gaps position upon removal. So i don't have the answer to it either. If i remembered to check it, then i would have the true answer, not just an internet answer.

So has anyone on this sohc forum, upon pulling out a piston(s), checked if the ring gap positions stayed the same (or roughly the same) position as to how they went in? Hondaman, Twotired, others? Surely someone has checked this in the past.

Anyone can post stuff on the internet. I like to see it for myself, or at least take it from a trusted source.

PS: Valve springs definitely rotate under high rpms and they are meant to as the harmonics are set up due to the springs and frequency, so this is true. But i'm still yet to be convinced that piston rings rotate.