Author Topic: 78 550K Battery Amperage Question (yes, this again)  (Read 1716 times)

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Offline mknbklyn

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78 550K Battery Amperage Question (yes, this again)
« on: November 07, 2013, 05:40:15 PM »
Hello all,

Trying to get some information about the lowest amperage I can rely on for a replacement battery for my 550K. I am running all stock electrical minus the following: no electric start (kick only), dyna ignition, and a new era regulator/rectifier.

I have also read TwoTired's breakdown of the 550's listed below which as always is good intel...though I don't claim to fully understand the implications of what I'm looking at.

How low I can go with amperage? I have been looking at the Bikemaster 12v TrueGel 4A (Capacity 10HR (AH)) due to size constraints with my seating configuration. If I understand correctly based on below this configuration would drain my battery in ~3 hours of city use not 10?

Anybody who genuinely knows electrical, your advice would super helpful.

TwoTired's breakdown:

Stock CB 500/550 electrical budget.
Alternator output - 110 watts at 2000 RPM , 150 watts peak

50 W -High beam   Headlight
3.4 W -High beam indicator
8W    -tail light
27W    -Stop light
16 W  - 8 W x 2 Front run lights
13.6W    - 3.4 W X 4 Instrument lights
49.4W     -23 W X2 turn signals plus 3.4 w indicator
28.8 W - maximum for ignition  (when points closed, one at a time)
28.8 W – for the alternator field coil (Only when battery low)
225 W -total maximum drawn from battery

600W  -Starting motor

--- Minimum lighting ---
40 W -low beam Headlight
8W    -tail light
16W  -8W   x 2 Front run lights
13.6W   - 3.4W X 4 Instrument lights
15W  - ignition estimate  (points aren’t always closed)
28.8 W – for the alternator field coil (Only when battery low)
121.4 W -total  (normal electrical draw from battery)

Battery capacity is about 12v x 12 AH or 144 Watts
.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2013, 05:44:35 PM by mknbklyn »

Offline scottly

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Re: 78 550K Battery Amperage Question (yes, this again)
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2013, 06:50:16 PM »
According to TT's breakdown, the 550 charging system is draining the battery at a rate of 11.4 watts at 2000 RPM. In other words, a 10 AH battery would be discharged after about 10 hours of continuous operation at 2000 RPM, with the minimal lighting. However, at normal operating RPMs, the output will exceed demand, keeping the battery charged. The main purpose of the battery on a kick-start bike is to provide enough power to allow the bike to be started and supply excitation to the alternator field coil to allow the charging system to "boot strap" itself. A larger battery will allow the bike to run longer at low RPM than a smaller battery, but this is not normally an issue. Led signal and instrument lights can significantly reduce the load at low engine RPMs.
I have been using very small batteries, 3 AH or less on my 750 for many years now, with no electrical problems. YMMV...
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline bryanj

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Re: 78 550K Battery Amperage Question (yes, this again)
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2013, 10:57:49 PM »
Most electronic ignitions require a higher voltage to spark than points
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

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Offline Bru-tom

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Re: 78 550K Battery Amperage Question (yes, this again)
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2013, 12:29:38 PM »
well, i have done some mods on my bike:

--- Minimum lighting ---
40 W -low beam Headlight
5W LED   -tail light (5 x 1W LED's and damn, they are bright! running them at 40% for tail light)
5W SMD LED's (like 15 of them)   -  Instrument lights
15W  - ignition estimate  (points aren’t always closed)
28.8 W – for the alternator field coil (Only when battery low)
93.8 W -total  (normal electrical draw from battery)

Battery capacity is about 12v x 8 AH or 96 Watts.

My indicators are also LED and draw 5W max (original was around 40W :o)

So i will be getting away with a 8Ah battery.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 12:32:56 PM by Bru-tom »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 78 550K Battery Amperage Question (yes, this again)
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2013, 01:57:34 PM »
Try to make a prediction on how you are going to use the bike.  All freeway driving won't be a problem.  All city driving might be.  Project how long you expect to operate below 2000 RPM, or what percentage of key switch on time.  At idle speed, the alternator makes about 1/3 of full output, about 50W at 1000 RPM for the 550 which is 4 or 4.5 amps.

Remember, a battery ought to have at least 12.6 V.  Higher voltage means the alternator is keeping the battery from depleting. Lower voltage means the battery IS depleting.

Be aware that the Dyna-s almost doubles the coil's power consumption.  If you are aiming for efficiency, the Dyna-s will not provide that and works at cross purposes to having a smaller capacity battery.

Most 550s, suck about 10 Amps when key switch and lighting are on.  Yours will draw about an amp more than a normal 550.


Battery ratings are made at a 10 hours depletion rate.  A 4Ah battery will keep above 10V with a 0.4A drain over 10 hours.  Increasing the load drastically shortens the capacity.  You will not get 0.8A out of that same battery for 5 hours, for example. It is probably more like 2 hrs. for this example.  And higher discharge rates make for faster depletion.  It's all about chemistry and chemical conversions take time to complete.

Also note that the recharge rate should be limited, to lessen battery "fatigue".  A safe charge is about 1/10 C where C is the discharge rating.  Yes, you can stuff 4 amps into it to recharge when depleted, but the battery won't reach full capacity without overheating it.  A 4Ah batter should be charged at 0.4A to safely make it reach full capacity.  The bikes regulator will not not care about this.

One strategy would be to buy two small batteries and change them daily, putting the alternate day battery on the battery tender to restore it to peak.

What price style?


« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 06:12:46 PM by TwoTired »
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline scottly

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Re: 78 550K Battery Amperage Question (yes, this again)
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2013, 06:00:52 PM »

Battery ratings are made at a 10 hours depletion rate.  A 4Ah battery will keep above 10V with a 4A drain over 10 hours.
That would be a 40AH battery: 10 hours times 4 Amps= 40. ;) You dropped a decimal point. A 4AH battery means .4 amps for 10 hours; at a 4 Amp draw, it may only maintain 10V for less than 1 hour. If the bike is always kept below the RPMs required to achieve the break-even point of the charging system, the battery, no matter the size, will eventually become depleted.
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 78 550K Battery Amperage Question (yes, this again)
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2013, 06:11:36 PM »

Battery ratings are made at a 10 hours depletion rate.  A 4Ah battery will keep above 10V with a 4A drain over 10 hours.
That would be a 40AH battery: 10 hours times 4 Amps= 40. ;) You dropped a decimal point.

Quite right, my apologies.  Distracted by other projects.  I have never multi-tasked well.  ::)

Now for edit mode...
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline mknbklyn

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Re: 78 550K Battery Amperage Question (yes, this again)
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2013, 01:36:20 PM »
Thanks to everyone for getting back to me on this and teaching me about amperage/hr in the meantime. I just temporarily rigged up a full size battery that a friend had extra for the time being for the last couple months of rideable weather (doesn't look awesome but gets me on the road). I'm exploring options for a PMA as a project for the winter.