Topic: Toustic's CB550F - A Swiss' first build

[rb550four]

Okay , the bearing guess is a long shot. It's probably casting slag that got loose or perhaps someone put in the cam dirty
(with foreign particles ).Either of these 2 are probable ,the longshot would force you to dismantle everything but ya never know.

[Maurice]

Wow this is getting interesting. Mystery ball bearing, jackpot!

I'd be looking real close at all the oil passages. The rest looks ok, it seems you're lucky with the head gasket it should clean up easily. Mine took days (1-2 hours each time so as not to go insane) to completely remove...

You were right to disassemble the engine, it'll be better than new once put together again

[Toustic]

I'm loving this feedback.
Tomorrow will be the day I either go all the way through, and make it the most thorough hands-on practice I could imagine as a noobie... Or bail and just leave it to a top end rebuild.

I need a way to decide guys as know you all have been through this.

I know I'm not experienced, but what I lack in knowledge, I believe to make up in motivation and dexterity. although I DON'T have any patience in general, let the record show that I've played 12 years of competitive golf at an international level...

Point being, I have all the patience in the world when it comes to things I have a passion for..

Also, would it be stupid from me tho think I can install the Dynoman Stage 1 by myself - while having the 61mm bore and honing done by a professional. I do realize this is greedy, but since I'm trying to decide on splitting it open, I figured it would be good being thruthful about my desire to make this bike as mean as mean can be (I have just received a yearly bonus at work, so I might have shopper's high at the moment).

@Maurice - I haven't posted a pic but that ball bearing traced a groove in the camshaft. The head gasket was down to the metal on the bottom side (cylinder 2 and 3). It actually was worn out all the way to the sleeve. Is that the source of my oil leak?
Thanks for making me feel better about the teardown, man 

@rb55four - the cam has dent and marks all around the mid 2's, but not on the edges, same goes for the "XXX" (I honestly don't know how to call that contact point with the oil where I found the bearing and plastic bit). It was scratched and had numerous noticeable scratches that went through the whole diameter of the "U". I have a manual, and wouldn't dare do all this without one. The only thing I'm worried about, is not having the specialty tools required.
The black bit was hard plastic, not rubber.
The cylinder with the issue didn't look to bad, tho I haven't had a chance to measure it for diam. and ring clearance.
What are my solution to the damage below? I was planning on updating the piston for something lighter and newer, but not sure how to handle:

It's pretty darn deep, even if the picture doesn't show.
And thank you for the support mate, much appreciated.

[Stev-o]

12 years of golf? Better sell this basket case now!   Kidding. 


The bike was riding, no issues with the Trans when you were joy riding around La La land, right?
If yes, pull the oil pan and have a look in there before splitting the cases.  If you find a lot of metal in there you will have your answer. 

[rb550four]

I agree with Stev o, What's in the pan?Do not turn your motor sideways or upside down please. What's in the filter? What's in the  2 drain plugs at the crankshaft ,they are at a low spot and collect loose things.
  If the cam is all torn up at that oil passage, the hope of that tiny bearing-like piece being lead is over. Being a contaminant from last rebuild is still a possibility but how do you know? Could it be from broken or worn pieces sure but which ones? Is it something that could bite you later? If you don't know what piece it may have come from and left unchecked,the chances are pretty good. Wonder what the oil pump looks like now.
  I think that you are looking at a head, at least one piston, if the piston is oversized- don't know where you'll get the rings. I'm only guessing that if that metal was pumped up through the oil pump that it may be damaged. I also believe that you should measure all of your bores to be sure PO didn't just hon the crap out of only that cylinder. A compression test earlier could have clued you into this possible weakness.Even if you could replace the sleeve, you should probably deck it, or go for a different set of jugs, or bore it out,aftermarket pistons and rings....what about the bearings? can it hold with a little more pressure from upgraded piston? Without looking ,how are you going to know?
  So many' What if's' if you don't go all in, and, if you bought and installed new stuff without at least looking first....The choice my friend is up to you.
  Any running 650 engines to' 82 available near you ? It's a direct engine swap but there is some other aspect of a swap like this that will require time and patience. Will your country allow this  legally? Lots of stuff to think about.

[Toustic]

12 years of golf? Better sell this basket case now!   Kidding. 


The bike was riding, no issues with the Trans when you were joy riding around La La land, right?
If yes, pull the oil pan and have a look in there before splitting the cases.  If you find a lot of metal in there you will have your answer.

12 years of competition.. probably close to 17 in total. When your parents raise you on the course they work at and live on, kinda hard not to give it a shot.

Passion is contagious my friend, I wouldn't be on here if it wasn't (taking a giant wild guess and assume you wouldn't either  )
Will pull the oil pan today, and see what it tells me. Thanks man.

@rb550four - Engine swap is not an option given the registration issue (engine and frame need to match). As much as I have a few tools handy thanks to my dad, I do not have any specialty measurement tools but I'm working on finding them at the moment.

At this point I'm pretty certain that, Yes...I'm going to go all in and assess the darn thing through, and it'll give me a chance to get acquainted as I should.

Oh, and don't worry, I would not buy new gear without knowing I can trust it to work. As much as I'm willing to spend money, I'm not willing to throw it away (I'm waiting for the cosmetics' part of the build for that  )

[rb550four]

That, sounds like a plan.

[Toustic]

Happy Holidays guys,

I've gotten a chance to get my hands greasy today, so I went ahead and dug a bit deeper into the engine.
The oil pan was rather clean, with the exception of more black plastic bits (smaller this time), which I believe to have figured out the origins of. I'd like to do the same as last time, and just post a bunch of the pictures I took, to get a raw feedback from those willing to step up to the plate (which I thank you for in advance).




hadn't noticed it before, but I think that's the source of those black plastic bits.


Another cheap homemade stand


Still gotta take a look at the screen and get the oil through a mesh strainer to see if I find another one of these "bearing-shaped" balls.



It smelled like deadfish when the cover came off.


This looks too corroded.





There was at least 3mm worth of wiggle on the sprocket, don't know how normal that is.

Big question... What are my next moves based on what you see, in order to split the case.
I think the primary shaft needs to come off, or something in that vein. The manual doesn't reflect that and I'm trying to do it the right way without having all the gear in the world..

Additionally, what part of the engine should I NOT clean with gasoline/kerosene except for the obvious seals/o-rings.
I know it's slow but I promise I'm putting my heart into it 
Just slowed down by having to order tools, parts, and basically all I need.

Thanks in advance guys,
Seb

[strynboen]

the front sprockets are normal sloggy..no problem..

[Stev-o]

the front sprockets are normal sloggy..no problem..

+1 no prob.   Oil pan and pump screen look clean, I see no reason to split the case. 

[rb550four]

The two plugs at the bottom of the engine normally collect debris, especially if the engine hasn't been on it's side or upside down.
  You could ,if you are pleased with your findings and have found no reason for the bearing like metal to be in the head except perhaps it was picked up from a dirty bench during assembly, you could blow the insides out with compressed air and see what comes out. If anything. You could run some kero down the bottom of the crankshaft case to clean it up some.
  The primary will not be coming out without splitting the cases. You still could zip this up now if you think it's a waste to check everything.
   
Bt the way , there is almost never anything in the strainer, I would be more interested in brushing through what is in the oil pan to see what is hiding in the crud.

[JoeP]

Wow! You're making excellent progress. I'll have to take a day off from my build just to process all the great info from this thread.

[Stev-o]

BTW, what paint to you plan to use on the cases? Is VHT available??


http://www.vhtpaint.com/products/engineenamel/

[Toustic]

The two plugs at the bottom of the engine normally collect debris, especially if the engine hasn't been on it's side or upside down.
  You could ,if you are pleased with your findings and have found no reason for the bearing like metal to be in the head except perhaps it was picked up from a dirty bench during assembly, you could blow the insides out with compressed air and see what comes out. If anything. You could run some kero down the bottom of the crankshaft case to clean it up some.
  The primary will not be coming out without splitting the cases. You still could zip this up now if you think it's a waste to check everything.
   
Bt the way , there is almost never anything in the strainer, I would be more interested in brushing through what is in the oil pan to see what is hiding in the crud.

Thank a lot man, you're always of great help in my constant despair.

Truth is, I'm having second thoughts now 
I don't have many tools, much less specialty ones, so I don't think I can handle going deeper.. I guess I just really wanted to go through it all to best learn.

You're completely right, I think at this point I would be happy with a top end rebuild, with at least a good de-gunking and greasing at the bottom (without splitting the case). I can live with not swapping the primary and cam chain.

[Toustic]

An update per day as it seems.
Can you tell I'm staying in the city for the holiday, with 30degres and pouring rain daily?

Today I got to use the big boy's tools, thanks to my dad's buddy/resident mechanic at the golf club (and the fact that I only get to use it cause he's on holidays).

Have you ever been into a chef's/restaurant's kitchen when it's not running... you wonder how they even make food and what with? That's how his shop is... took me 5 minutes to find a flathead screwdriver



This thing is a plain old beast. it's in the building next door because of the noise.




Used it to clear the insides of the engine, and de-gunk most of the crap, as well as clear all bolt threads from old dried up thread lock. I have pulled the crankcase bolts as well, as I'm going to swap all engine bolts with polished stainless steel allen heads.

Then I got to use something even better...


Cleaning station... Keeps flowing right through the brush.. meanest degreaser I've ever seen (Yes, I have to wipe out the grill and pick up all the scraps when I'm done  )


took me about 15 minutes to do all these..

Out of curiosity, since I have the compressor handy. Would it be sufficient to just purchase the add-on below in order to sandblast my parts? Thanks
http://www.toolatelier.com/TOA_UO10487_FR_Pistolet-de-sablage-pour-sac---qualite-pro---Michelin----.htm (I know it's in french....time to infer from context  )

Cheers

[Toustic]

To sandblast, you really need a cabinet. You could buy a soda blast unit and use the compressor. Soda media is "lost" during use where "sand" is recirculated. If you were to sand blast without a cabinet, you'd have a newly formed Pete Dye bunker where it shouldn't be...

For the golfer in you!

Haha, Pete Dye.. That's no beginners' reference, real impressive

I can't really get a cabinet, but I sure as hell have a lot of dry sand handy... I'm literally going to do it facing a pile of it (where we stock the fine stuff we put in our traps, very fine stuff).
I can't get a cabinet for now, especially since this is not my compressor, and the cheapest quote I was given for Baking soda, was a bag of 25kg for over 130$... So... Sand it is

Messed around a bit more today..

Before:


Afer:



Everything gets washed in the solution, and immediately dried up with compressed air, with WD40 added to all bearing, and basically anything else that needs bare minimum lubrication.



Told you that place was clean... Especially considering he works mainly on heavy machinery



Getting happier and happier with the seat and the matching lines with the frame and tank, but I'm still going to build another one with the foam blocks, as getting the symmetry just right from a big blob of sealing foam is way harder than it looks.

Going to buy the sandblasting nozzle tomorrow, let's see what happens.

I'm going back and forth with splitting the case but now that I have cleaned up the inside, I noticed that there quite a bit of slack on the primary chain. The way I see it... I'm not gonna tear down this engine anytime soon, and since I'm considering blasting and the bolts are off... might as well.

Should I lean towards splitting it, One question: The seal makes it feel like it's welded shut, so should I try my luck with an electric heat gun (trivia: in golf we use it to melt old glue from clubheads when switching shafts, it has very little dispersion) ?

Cheers

[Stev-o]

That shop looks amazing

[rb550four]

 Nice shop, all that room, handy toys,always good to be friendly with the neighbors.
Never used heat to split a case , comes apart easy enough. I use an aircraft  gasket/sealant for mating surfaces when zipping it up,easy brush on twice, way better than silicone and excess doesn't squish out everywhere.
  Heck man , you might as well split it now (you're just about there anyways) and change that primary chain and cam chain too.
Some things that can make your life easier when you split the cases.... remove the rest of your generator, remove the top bolts first, flip it over on a box or something so the weight doesn't mess up the head rods, remove the crank bolts in cross pattern from center out. then the case bolts and the one inside the oil screen area.
bump the cases with a rubber hammer should show some separation , pry up gently and evenly, leave a 1/4 in thick shim in the split as you go because the weight of the crank will want to close it up again. when you lift the bottom case the crank will come with it. turn it over onto a clean surface.
  Leave the top case and gears alone until you are ready to inspect it , This is important, do not remove the gears and expect to be able to hold them with one hand, use two hands like a on a corn cob, grab both ends of it , rock it 'spin it upward and continue to hold both ends of the shaft and place it on a flat clean surface.....second shaft same way. The reason for this is if you hold the shaft with one hand ,it usually spins out of you hand , dumping the entire rack of gears and needle bearings on the floor in no particular order... much time can be spent with flashlight on your knees hoping you can find the escaped pieces.  So Both hands.
  The primary shaft in the bottom case  can be removed with one of the threaded rods from top engine mount or  foot peg rod (forgot which right now) , thread it into the end of the shaft , use a wrench the size of the shaft but smaller than the bolt on the end, tap the wrench with a hammer and the bearing and shaft assembly will slip out , watch the other end on the inside as you do that so you know how it's put together.... Look for the needle bearings in a basket at the end of the shaft these can fly. inspect the bearings ( Because that was my guess for the bearing in the head)slip the shaft out and release the primary chain. the crankshaft is free now , be careful and weasel both primary and cam chains off the crank (inspect crank and bearings) slip new chains on the same way the old ones came off.
    Check the condition of the shifting forks, look for wear everywhere. Clean everything , reassemble, oil everything and have fun....and don't forget to take pics.

[Toustic]

Warning! Do NOT sand blast your cases UNLESS you are taking every last metal gear, bearing, seal and component out. The sand must be thoroughly, thoroughly, thoroughly (and completely) rinsed out. It will get into every nook and cranny and ruin your engine upon re-assembly.

The only time I know people have their motors blasted with sand is when they are completely disassembled, prior or powder coating. And that sand is aluminum oxide, 80-150 grit or even glass beads. Gold course fine sand is not necessarily a very good idea just because it's available. It may be far more destructive to the aluminum case than you realize. Also, the amount of pressure being applied by the compressor is a major factor.

If you proceed and damage this motor, please remember this post. The appeal of a clean motor does not equate with the the risk you are taking. Hope this helps dissuade you to DIY blast it.

Thank you for the heads up man, I wouldn't have been so careful.
The sand that golf courses get is actually made specially for that purpose and has specific density so that they can use it all around and still match European Tour norms. The kind we get at the club is matching the values for silica, hardness and density of the abrasive use for sandblasting - Unless I missed something and in that case, I need some light to be shed on this 
I can dial-in the pressure to the nozzle. 8 Bars for a start sounds about right?
I will have the case stripped prior, submerged after, and then air-pressure dried thoroughly (twice).

@RB550FOUR - Even if I'm  in over my head, I'm going to split them just to honor that walkthrough 
Thanks a lot my man, that was very selfless and helpful of you.

[rb550four]

Calj737 is right about sandblasting those cases, you can ruin more than you have hoped to improve.

Some members have used oven cleaner to strip the  paint down others use paint stripper . Was the sand blasting idea only for cleaning up the cases? Stripper and a brass brush could accomplish that without  the risk.

Getting the rust off the gears can be done with a 6 in wire brush mounted on a bench grinder , a solvent rinse and a good blowing off is always a good idea for every part.

Check your crankshaft seals  or change them while you still can, The parts do not come up under the 500/550 from most Honda places, so you should do a search for the part numbers.The 650 had the same crankseals ,those parts were still available last year when I bought mine, Don't forget to pick up a shifter seal  and a kick start seal while those are still available.
  The clips for your wrist pins, Honda says never reuse, some guys do, I buy new,still available. 

[Bankerdanny]

You can sandblast without a cabinet. I did it with 2 frames this summer. However, it is VERY messy. Make sure you have a proper hood that covers your whole head down to your shoulders and I highly recommend a set of disposable painter's coveralls.

[Toustic]

So, here is how thing evolved.

I will be sandblasting myself the frame, stand, swingarm, bottom and top triple trees, and give the more fragile parts to someone I know who can bead/soda/sand blast anything, and powdercoat as well. I should be able to be there and watch him work, which to me is the most important aspect... no point in doing all this if I don't learn more about the fun stuff.

@RB, @CALJ - Thanks for warning me about mishandling my crankcase, I didn't take into consideration the heating factor of the sandblast, and how it would mostly mess it all up. I was too focused on the abrasive factor, thinking a wire brush wheel didn't sound much smoother than sand. My bad, that's how you learn (at least before messing s*** up).

So I pulled that sucker of a flywheel/magneto, and opened the case, thanks to RB's walkthrough. Not gonna lie I had butterflies in my stomach seeing that sucker through. The primary chain had major slack as anticipated. I will soon be placing an order for all the oil seal, primary and cam chain. Do you guys suggest replacing all ball bearings? What about the crank bearings?
The idea is that now that the engine is open, I might as well replace parts that need be. THanks in advance for feedback.








Is that the time I'm supposed to start getting doubtful, and realize I might not be able to put it back together?

[rb550four]

Yeah , that's about the time alright.
  I doubt that you will have any problems putting it back together,you have a nice shop to work in and,people here to give support if you get in a jam.

How do those crank bearings look up close , how much side to side play do you have at the crank /piston rod? if those are not sloppy don't take them apart , no real benefit, unless you must.
  A taste of crankbearing talk.....
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=126080.0

Hit search with your question  about it  if you need a better idea or understanding of how to deal with things like no longer available parts and where one might get aftermarket parts, there is lots of info in past threads.
There are answers there and you don't have to go in blind . No worries , You'll be fine.

[rb550four]

other recent talk
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=133078.0

That's what I mean about feeling slack on chains and things that ware, usually if it feels good ,it is  and some things are not available.

[rb550four]

  Still there?