Topic: fmctm1sw '83 GL650 Interstate

[fmctm1sw]

Carbs back on.  I guess I'll check it for spark tomorrow then I have to figure out that clutch.

[MoMo]

Carbs back on.  I guess I'll check it for spark tomorrow then I have to figure out that clutch.

One of Honda's better designs for taking carbs on and off.  How close do you think you are to firing it up?

[fmctm1sw]

Carbs back on.  I guess I'll check it for spark tomorrow then I have to figure out that clutch.

One of Honda's better designs for taking carbs on and off.  How close do you think you are to firing it up?

Momo,  I'm having my first "Oh sh*t" moment with this bike.  The dimming lights and slow turnover I attributed to a low battery isn't a low battery problem.  Today I jumped it off my truck and it did the same thing.  It doesn't seem to be turning over as fast as it should and it gets even worse when the plugs are in.  The starter gets hot too.  If you connect the jumper cable straight to the starter lead, it does the same thing.  Something is making it very hard to turn over.  I took the starter apart and I didn't see anything obvious in there.  I took the clutch out hoping that somehow the clutch issue was related to this but it didn't make any difference. 

I looked at the clutch while I had it out.  I think I had too many plates in it.  I'm going to post something on the technical forum and ask about it.  The way I understand it is the springs are supposed to compress.  If you look at my springs, they are already really compressed.  I'll get the pictures up in a minute.

Not sure what to do next.  I can get the heads off pretty easy to see what difference that may make but not right now.... 

[MoMo]

Try turning it over without plugs to see if you still have resistance

[fmctm1sw]

Try turning it over without plugs to see if you still have resistance

Yeah, it's still way too hard to turn.  I tried it both ways.  I'm trying to think about what I didn't look at when I assembled it.  I set the timing by rotating the engine with the drive shaft, it didn't seem real hard to turn then.  Maybe it was and I didn't notice it.  I put it in 5th gear and tried to turn the tire and it seemed real stiff too.

[MoMo]

and that clutch does not look right, it does seem as though the springs are already fully compressed.  Do you have any movement when the lever is pulled in?

[fmctm1sw]

and that clutch does not look right, it does seem as though the springs are already fully compressed.  Do you have any movement when the lever is pulled in?

The parts fische shows 8 friction disks and 7 steels but if you put all of them in there that's what you'll get.  The clutch lever didn't budge.  From another thread I posted in the technical forums, I think I have the clutch under control now.  I took a friction and steel out of it.  It came with that many plates but when I saw the fische, I assumed the PO messed it up and I bought another friction and steel plate and added them.  I looked at a couple on ebay and I've seen 8 frictions    All that said, I can easily squeeze the lever now but it still won't roll in gear with the clutch disengaged.  That may have more to do with the other problem, I don't know...

[MoMo]

When it is in neutral, spark plugs out, can you turn the motor over through the access in the front? 

[fmctm1sw]

When it is in neutral, spark plugs out, can you turn the motor over through the access in the front?

This one right behind the radiator?  No, but I can easily take the radiator back off.  It may be until the weekend before I can get back to it.

[MoMo]

radiator does not have to come off as it is the access cover for turning the motor over by hand.  If the motor does not turn freely with the plugs out while using the bolt behind the cover you have a problem...Larry

[fmctm1sw]

radiator does not have to come off as it is the access cover for turning the motor over by hand.  If the motor does not turn freely with the plugs out while using the bolt behind the cover you have a problem...Larry

Thanks Larry,
The results are in.  I was thinking I was going to have to take the radiator off but I only needed to remove that little plastic cover on the bottom of it.  I did a lot of research on exactly how much force it should take to turn an engine over, mostly from car guys on hot rod sites.  Most estimates seem to be about 6 ft lbs per cylinder (no heads).  So I got my torque wrench on it and it takes me between 15 and 20 fl lbs to turn it without the plugs in it, heads and all.  I wouldn't think that's excessive for a bike.  Curiously, adding the plugs hardly makes a difference but I'm thinking the starter should be able to turn the motor over.  There are a number of modifications that have been done to the CX/GL starters that are reported to increase cranking so I'm going to look into that.  I'm not going to panic about the compression until I can get the engine spinning over properly.

[fmctm1sw]

I got to digging around in my garage to see what other starters I had laying around.  I found one I think was from a 550.  It was totally different so trying to combine parts was out of the question. So I ended up taking the GL starter out and connecting the battery right to it. It spun up fast. I tried the 550 starter the same way and it didn't turn. I found if I "helped" it get started, it would turn... real slow but it turned. And so weak I stopped it easily with my hand. Then I got to thinking about how much turning force that 650 starter had.  I took a paper towel,  wrapped it around the starter gear and hit it with the battery. I stopped it pretty easily. I didn't think I should be able to stop it so I ended up finding another starter from a 400F motor I was going to put together and tried the same thing. That starter didn't take too kindly to being grabbed. It consistently yanked itself right out of my hand and jerked around on the floor, the last time ripping off a big hunk of the paper towel. It would certainly appear the starter is toast so I can breath a sigh of relief that the motor wasn't fouled somehow.

I came across a source for new starters and I'm noting it here so I don't forget:  http://www.stockers.com/index.php?dt=HS-14  There's starters for old Honda fours too...

[fmctm1sw]

Starter should be here today or Monday but the clutch still has me confounded.  I did verify that both the clutch outer and center spin freely in and of themselves so the issue is definitely this clutch.  I'm going to see what he cx forum thinks.  I'm starting to wonder if I have the right parts.  The outer has a "ME2" stamped on it which is correct for the middle numbers of the part number.  The clutch center and pressure plate are stamped 390 though despite the same ME2 numbers on the fische.   

Hmm, according to this:  http://oldmanhonda.com/MC/HCodes.html 390 is for the 550F.  I've probably been chasing my tail on this with wrong parts...

[fmctm1sw]

Well, I got my starter today.  It spins much stronger then the other one but still won't crank the motor with the plugs in.  I did manage to do a compression check though, both around 120.  I may just take the plugs out and spin it to get oil pushed through it, I imagine it's pretty dry.  I'm going to get the clutch figured out and back in first though for now.  I did some work on the tank.  I'm pretty happy with the inside, but I may let it sit with evaporust.

[Mcwilliams570]

I enjoy watching your progress on this build. I picked up a 81 gl500 silverwing a few months ago had a bad oil leak got that fixed bike runs great now. They are fun bikes does everything alright I enjoy the luggage the best can pick up beer and whatever crap the wife wants from the store on the way home

[MoMo]

Looks good all cleaned up Matt!

[fmctm1sw]

Looks good all cleaned up Matt!

   That's Mcwilliams' bike!  I'm not quite out of the woods with mine yet.  I think I have the clutch figured out but the no start situation has me concerned.  Like said though, I'm going to get the clutch in and spin it up with oil before I freak out about it.

And thanks Mcwilliams.  You have a real nice one.  This bike was a train wreck when I got it.  I had a CX500 a while back and liked it so much I bought this pretty much site unseen.  If I knew how neglected it was I may have passed.  Just once, I'd love to find something I can just clean up and throw gas in...   just once...

[hoodellyhoo]

I don't recall if you covered this or not but are you powering this new starter straight from the battery? I'm wondering if the contacts in the starter solenoid are corroded....

[fmctm1sw]

I don't recall if you covered this or not but are you powering this new starter straight from the battery? I'm wondering if the contacts in the starter solenoid are corroded....

Yep , both ways and in the bike, on the floor, powered by a little 12VDC deep cycle battery, and jumped off my truck...  I'm going to make sense of the clutch, then get the oil back in it and spin it up with no plugs until I get some oil pressure.  I have a GL650 clutch basket on the way.

[fmctm1sw]

Now I have the verdict on the clutch pack.  I received it today expecting to see a different pressure plate and different clutch center.  I was right on one of those counts.

The clutch center has (as I expected) the ME2 marking on it and it is quite different but the pressure plate was stamped 390 though just like the one I have.  The springs were also different on the pack I got off ebay.

There were also four washers under the springs on the one I got today.  Upon closer inspection, they were definitely hand adapted.  The springs from my old pack are actually far closer to the service numbers I see in my manual.  It looks like someone added some longer clutch springs then put washers under them for even more lift.  What were they doing, drag racing?   

The "new" pressure plate also has gouges from what looks like the springs so I'll use the one I have.  I'll need to painstakingly file down the grooves on the center (again) but I should have all the proper parts in order now.

[fmctm1sw]

Here's some work on the petcock.  Someone just blasted the inside of the vacuum parts with atv.  I'm not averse to having it if I can find a rebuild kit.  I opened all the passages back up too, they were all sealed.

[grcamna2]

Here's some work on the petcock.  Someone just blasted the inside of the vacuum parts with atv.  I'm not averse to having it if I can find a rebuild kit.  I opened all the passages back up too, they were all sealed.

Man,that bikes been a tough one for you! it hasn't given you much of a break lately    That's the roughest vacuum petcock I've seen ever 

[fmctm1sw]

Here's some work on the petcock.  Someone just blasted the inside of the vacuum parts with atv.  I'm not averse to having it if I can find a rebuild kit.  I opened all the passages back up too, they were all sealed.

Man,that bikes been a tough one for you! it hasn't given you much of a break lately    That's the roughest vacuum petcock I've seen ever 

Exactly, never a dull moment with this thing.... 

[grcamna2]

The bike is going to be a Great 'Before and AFTER' I'm Sure ! when it's complete,but 'what a Journey'  I don't need to watch scary movies lately... just have a look & see what you've been working on      You're taking on a HUGE restoration project man.

[fmctm1sw]

It's amazing what happens when the proper components are installed.  The steel plates in the pack I got off ebay were in better shape, so I used them along with the new frictions I had.  I also filed the grooves out of the center.  Now that the correct components are in, the clutch works great. 

I'm still concerned about the starting problem.  I got the oil back in it and cranked it over with the plugs out of it.  I was expecting to see the oil light go out but it does not.  I know the oil pump works because I put it in a bucket of oil and spun it when I was putting the bike back together and oil burped out of it.  Putting the plugs in it and trying to crank is a no go. 

With the plugs out, I can put the bike in gear though, pop the clutch and turn the motor but I can feel the clutch slip a little at first.