Author Topic: '73 500 - Subframe Fabrication  (Read 142935 times)

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Offline calj737

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Re: '73 500 - Mike Rieck: better than Viagra?
« Reply #175 on: July 03, 2014, 01:29:01 PM »
Who knew fly fishing was a contact sport? Glad you weren't seriously injured and were able to trundle home.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline redrider736

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Re: '73 500 - Mike Rieck: better than Viagra?
« Reply #176 on: July 03, 2014, 01:32:47 PM »
Were did you get the exhaust coating done to your MotoGP werks pipe??
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Offline riverfever

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Re: '73 500 - Mike Rieck: better than Viagra?
« Reply #177 on: July 03, 2014, 01:35:37 PM »
Yeah you gotta watch your P's and Q's on the river. If the flows are up it can get dangerous if you wade out far enough. South Platte is a tailwater (meaning there are dams that control the flows) but on freestone rivers like the Arkansas (about 70 miles west of me) it is not uncommon for flows to get as high as 2000+cfs (cubic feet per second) this time of year when the snow's melting and that's a lot. Great for the kayakers and rafters but not so good for the fisherman. It was weird too because the flows last week were about 650 and I was in much worse spots and last night it was 435. It was really more of a mishap on my part because of some glare on the water more than anything else. But it happens. Quickly. Coulda been worse. 
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Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: '73 500 - Mike Rieck: better than Viagra?
« Reply #178 on: July 03, 2014, 01:41:25 PM »
river,

I just looked up Woodland Park.  You're a stone's throw from Pikes Pike.  It looks gorgeous up there, but you must have some serious alpine lungs from living at altitude.  Any one of us probably wouldn't have had enough lung capacity to make it out of that river if it was moving fast (AND AT NIGHT, TOO!!).  Glad you made it out with just a nasty bump.  I heard they just did the annual PP Climb races.

redrider,
Ask you local powdercoater if they have ceramic PC.  You can ask Cal or Retro about its thermal properties.  I got mine done (inside and out) by a local powdercoater.
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1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
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"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

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Offline riverfever

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Re: '73 500 - Mike Rieck: better than Viagra?
« Reply #179 on: July 03, 2014, 01:47:29 PM »
Yeah they just finished on Sunday and you can hear them run from my front deck. We're just a shade under 9,000 feet at my house. Normally for the hill climb I'll hike up the mountain and watch to avoid the ticket fee and because then you can leave whenever you feel like it) but they changed things this year and you could only watch from like 6 places and I heard they were writing tickets so I did not go. It was a bummer to hear about the guy on a 2014 Triumph (Bobby Goodin) who finished his run but then at the summit, he couldn't get it stopped and went right off the cliff. They flight for lived him to Colorado Springs but he did not make it. 

Sorry for the hijack Cal.
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Offline calj737

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Re: '73 500 - Mike Rieck: better than Viagra?
« Reply #180 on: July 03, 2014, 01:55:55 PM »
Yup, as CB750 said, my powder coater also offers ceramic coating. I always do my exhausts at least on the inside, sometimes in and out.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline Tsunami

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Re: '73 500 - Mike Rieck: better than Viagra?
« Reply #181 on: July 03, 2014, 03:28:39 PM »
Glad your ok, now I understand from all the trout twitter down stream about the guy who came floating threw what they meant? I got them to back off on all the snide jokes or all the SOHC members would come down and fish!
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Offline Tews19

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Re: '73 500 - Mike Rieck: better than Viagra?
« Reply #182 on: July 03, 2014, 07:30:27 PM »
What does ceramic coating do to the pipes? I'm dropping off my frame and bits to the PC'r Monday. Maybe I could give him my motogp set up as well
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Offline calj737

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Re: '73 500 - Mike Rieck: better than Viagra?
« Reply #183 on: July 04, 2014, 07:07:24 AM »
Ceramic on pipes does 3 things: increases corrosion resistance, reduces ambient temperature by trapping more heat inside the exhaust (cooler to the touch) and the most important performance benefit, increases the exhaust gas scavenging.

The last piece is the most important if your goal is some performance benefit. Because exhausted gas is "puffed" by each cylinder into the pipe, it is rather turbulent air, and has a narrow band of heat, with much cooler air on the outside edges of it. Ceramic coating helps raise the temperature of more of the gas so it actually vacates the pipe quicker and more completely with each "puff". Hotter air travels faster than cooler air. Same principle as a river. Faster current is in the middle of the river, eddy currents occur on the edges.

I've observed that shortly after stopping the engine, the pipes are very cool to the touch, say within 10' at the header. That's because the air is trapped and the ceramic prevents the heat being radiated outward through the pipe, and instead helps push it out the muffler/tailpipe.

On this bike, I only did the inside because I wanted the raw stainless finish, but my 550 is coated inside and out.

One thing about stainless pipes- they will fail more quickly than mild steel pipes as exhausts. Stainless is more corrosion resistant, but also more brittle and due to the frequent heat/cool cycles of an exhaust, they will not last as long as a mild steel pipe. Mild steel will corrode more quickly, but tolerate the heat cycles better. Ceramic coating helps either pipe with their "weakness" to equal the other metal.

So it's a great treatment for any pipe, regardless of the metal used. I even did the exhaust on my other boy's GS500 which is a Vance/Hines. The factory coating (like a Mac) is crap and within about 6 months, began to fail. Had it shot inside and out, and not only is the damn thing cooler, but now the coating is extremely durable, and is much cooler to the touch.

On this bike (CB500) is treated the exhaust collars inside and out as they will be directly against the head, and I will install and leave them attached. Should also help keep them lasting longer.

Tews, I know you've already buttoned up your motor, but next time you install pistons, have the done treated with thermal reflective coating and the skirts with Dry Film Lubricant (DFL). The purpose of the reflective coating is to bounce the heat occurring in the combustion phase back upward into the combusted air, raising the temperature of the combustion stroke. Hotter air is more HP. You can also achieve the same or better "power" in that combustion event with less fuel. Less fuel equals leaner fuel mixtures, and "Lean is mean" as they say...

The benefit of the DFL treatment is 2 fold. It aides in the life span of the piston by impregnating the skirt with a lubricant, less friction equals more life and more energy as a result of the combustion, and perhaps most importantly, the DFL helps prevent the engine oil from adhering to the underside of the piston. Think of it this way;

With the thermal coating on top, the heat is not transferring through the piston dome to "touch" the engine oil, reducing the oil temp. The DFL helps further by wicking the crankcase oil off the surface very quickly, again, reducing the heat transference to it. If you can lower the engine oil temperature, then you have a cooler running engine, longer bearing life, less friction, more energy, and so on.

I'm not a racer or pro engine builder, but I've paid enormous attention to and researched these things an awful lot. I've seen studies done (on car engines) and the "with" and "without" pictures of pistons and valve seats is pretty damn remarkable for those engines that use these simple coatings. And the coatings are dang cheap! $60 to treat my pistons. Considering I paid nearly $500 for them, it's a very good investment.

This picture doesn't have them treated with the DFL, as my coater had to order the product and was going to be several weeks before getting to them. But they are shot with it, and now they're at the shop with the jugs for boring and fitment.

I think both Mike R and Brent commented somewhere earlier about their experience with DFL being very impressive too. Due to the nature of these older air cooled engines, I think any little thing you can do to "treat" or "manage" the air temp is a plus. Again, not trying to extract every last HP out, but thinking about the long term lifespan of an expensive engine build. And I fully expect my 20 year old to be "hard" on this bike... :-\

Sorry for the novella
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline Stev-o

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Re: '73 500 - Mike Rieck: better than Viagra?
« Reply #184 on: July 04, 2014, 07:35:09 AM »
Great info there, Cal.  If/when I buy the MotoGP exhaust, I'd do the same, coat the inside only. The SS finish is fantastic as is.

My powdercoater says ceramic scratches easier, true?
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Offline calj737

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Re: '73 500 - Mike Rieck: better than Viagra?
« Reply #185 on: July 04, 2014, 07:36:41 AM »
It's not as durable as powder coat, but it's more durable than paint and raw metal. My hubs are coated with ceramic and I've no complaints.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline Tews19

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Re: '73 500 - Mike Rieck: better than Viagra?
« Reply #186 on: July 04, 2014, 03:39:03 PM »
Ceramic coating the inside of the exhaust it is! Just the header or the entire thing and remove the baffle? Thanks for the great write up!
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Offline calj737

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Re: '73 500 - Mike Rieck: better than Viagra?
« Reply #187 on: July 04, 2014, 04:34:58 PM »
I did the whole thing. Was a bit of a pain to remove the baffle as the logo plate is riveted on, and interferes with removal. I drilled the rivets, left the plate on this one, then replaced the rivets after coating.

On my 550, since it was done inside and out, I got Chris to send me a new plate after a while and did the same.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline Tews19

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Re: '73 500 - Mike Rieck: better than Viagra?
« Reply #188 on: July 04, 2014, 08:01:24 PM »
Thanks bud! I think I may do the header only. Up here in Minneapolis we were on our way to the casino and I heard a distinct sound. I look in the rear view mirror and I can tell there is a vintage bike. The rider had it semi café d and as it zoomed by it was a 550... Kid got cute and dipped into a nice turn and I started thinking why am I driving this Rav4 when I can be riding my K1. Better yet finish my 550 build!

Sorry for the hijack. Your thread is making this a long weekend!
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Offline calj737

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Re: '73 500 - Small steps ahead
« Reply #189 on: July 14, 2014, 02:04:25 PM »
Dropped by the machine shop and picked up my pistons now that the bores are done. Dropped the pistons to the PC man who is shooting them with DFL and an Oil-shed coating.

Also, picked up my trans. Sending that out for undercutting based upon the recommendation of the bwaller, who was kind enough to provide me some excellent and detailed info on drivetrain configs for this bike. Many thanks, Brent.

Received a delivery from a few sources with my new cam chain, primary chain, HD studs, adjustable cam sprocket, and an OEM sump gasket. Waiting on delivery of the exhaust and intake studs, then much of the engine is off to machine shop for preliminary assembly. Gotta wait until the trans gets back for final assembly. Geez, seems only yesterday that this piece of rust rolled into the shop... Cant tell which goes faster; time or budgets.

Still gotta order a clutch, ignition (leaning heavily toward the C5/PowerArc) a R/R from Ricks, rebuilt starter, and tires. Indicators, head light, tail light, Gauge, etc...

Fab work left to do:
Weld and brace frame
Fab subframe and seat hoop
Fab swingarm (mono shock)
Rearset bracketry (need to order them too)
Make seat
Make tank
Make fenders

Did I forget anything?
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline Tews19

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Re: '73 500 - Small steps ahead
« Reply #190 on: July 14, 2014, 02:25:40 PM »
I went with a taillight with the turn signals built in. I can program how they flash as well. Ever think of a 1 piece set up Cal?
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Offline calj737

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Re: '73 500 - Small steps ahead
« Reply #191 on: July 14, 2014, 02:36:55 PM »
That's what "he" wants: LED strip with programmable indicator segments. I said, "show me the design that benefits from it, and then make a decision. Don't decide what you want, then design around it". Am I a harda$$ or what?
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline Tews19

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Re: '73 500 - Small steps ahead
« Reply #192 on: July 14, 2014, 02:45:22 PM »
Let me look for mine. It's comes ready to plug in.
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Offline calj737

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Re: '73 500 - Small steps ahead
« Reply #193 on: July 17, 2014, 04:21:19 PM »
Picked up the pistons today. Tops were done prior, but now the skirts have the Dry Film Lubrication applied, and the underside has the same Thermal Dispersion coating as the jugs. It also sheds the oil to help keep everything as cool as possible inside.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline calj737

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Re: '73 500 - Small steps ahead
« Reply #194 on: July 17, 2014, 04:37:56 PM »
I'm going to hijack my own thread... But only because it's relevant  ::)

For this bike I am planing a custom tank made from either fiberglass, aluminum, or heaven forbid, carbon. So I've been trying to devise a custom fuel cap, all the while I've been pretty stoked on the Rizoma quick fill plug.

Meanwhile, I'm working on my 74 BMW that I'm redoing, and putting on the Atkins diet. So I've used that tank to prototype the custom filler.

Here's the stock piece:



So I don't much like the heavy collar, as it's used to install these caps in modern sport bike tanks, in a recessed mode. But I need the "female" receiver to interlock the plug, and since this part is made from alloy and my tank is steel, off to the lathe-

Stock part



After a few hours on the lathe, a 2.5" piece of stainless 303 bar stock became this:



Underside:



And what the final product looks like now:



This weekend I will silver solder this "plug" into the tank after I finish opening the stock neck. It should make the stock BMW tank much cleaner, and less bulky visually. This will also allow me to paint right up to the collar with no weld bead visible. The collar has a 10 degree bevel, so it's much more subtle all the way about. A good polish on the SS sitting beside the paint should be super clean and a nice custom touch.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: '73 500 - Small steps ahead
« Reply #195 on: July 17, 2014, 06:07:16 PM »
Trick bit for the air head.
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline calj737

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Re: '73 500 - Small steps ahead
« Reply #196 on: July 17, 2014, 06:08:16 PM »
Gonna use it in this one too in the end...
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: '73 500 - Small steps ahead
« Reply #197 on: July 17, 2014, 06:17:40 PM »
Looks very much like the Rizoma cap.
http://www.rizoma.com/universal/gas-caps/tf/en
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline calj737

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Re: '73 500 - Small steps ahead
« Reply #198 on: July 17, 2014, 06:24:23 PM »
It is the cheap knock-off.  Wasn't buying theirs for a prototype piece! You can see how nicked up it gets knocking it around SS in the shop. And dropped. And knocked. And dropped...

I like the design of that cap. The "key" is not truly required, but is non-standard. So it is a bit of a safety cap. Since both of the bikes will use the M-Key, I wanted to avoid the metal keys on the paint. This will work out nicely with the fob for the remote start.
'74 550 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=126401.0
'73 500 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132935.0

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

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Re: '73 500 - Small steps ahead
« Reply #199 on: July 18, 2014, 02:22:35 PM »
It is the cheap knock-off.  Wasn't buying theirs for a prototype piece! You can see how nicked up it gets knocking it around SS in the shop. And dropped. And knocked. And dropped...

I like the design of that cap. The "key" is not truly required, but is non-standard. So it is a bit of a safety cap. Since both of the bikes will use the M-Key, I wanted to avoid the metal keys on the paint. This will work out nicely with the fob for the remote start.

Maybe you can get this "real deal" one on the cheap:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rizoma-Ducati-Monster-Gas-Cap-/231283759879?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item35d9961b07&vxp=mtr#ht_329wt_1362
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold