Author Topic: CB550K noises  (Read 3749 times)

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Offline SamP

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CB550K noises
« on: December 29, 2013, 02:10:27 PM »
Hey everyone,
New to the forum, though I've been lurking for some time now. I'd like to thank everyone who has contributed to making this place the wealth of information that it is. It's gotten me this far, up to the point where I actually need to make an account to ask my question.
Last year I bought a 1977 CB550K with 18,000 on the clock. It ran when I bought it, but I could tell it needed work. There was a hole in the exhaust on left side which made an awful noise and it ran rough, so one of the first things I did was purchase a 4 into 1 exhaust.
After a top end rebuild (new rings, honed the cylinders, lapped the valves, new slipper in the cam chain tensioner) I put the new pipes on, and started it up and noticed the sound wasn't from the hole in the exhaust, but from something deeper in the case or at the bottom of the crank. The slapping noise from the exhaust was just distracting me from hearing the deeper noise.
Since the primary chain felt a little loose when I had the oil pan off, I figured I needed to see if it needed replacing, and what other things needed to be addressed (for example, the PO had installed the floats in the carbs upside down - don't ask me how it ran, but by some miracle it did, though VERY lean). So I've split the cases. And I can't find anything that stands out as the culprit to why it sounds so rough. The bearing on the tranny countershaft (left side, by the sprocket connecting to the drive chain) sounds like it might be failing, and there is some light rust visible on the casing, but that shouldn't be turning in idle in neutral, right?
Here's a video of the sound I'm trying to track down. At 2:30 it's really pronounced.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJUZ6noxN54#t=138
All shafts, gears, bearings, etc look good, no cracks, chips or anything. I'm going to order some plastigage to check the crank bearings if I can't find anything obvious in the coming days.
I can provide more photos and some other videos of when she was in one piece if it will help you help me.
Thanks again for everything you all have done to help novices like myself learn how to care for their bikes.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 02:26:38 PM by SamP »

Offline LesterPiglet

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Re: CB550K noises
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2013, 02:14:11 PM »
I hear nothing.  :D
This is yours I believe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJUZ6noxN54#t=19
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 02:30:26 PM by LesterPiglet »
'Then' and 'than' are completely different words and have completely different meanings. Same with 'of' and 'have'. Set and sit. There, their and they're. Draw and drawer. Could care less/couldn't care less. Bought/brought FFS.


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Offline LesterPiglet

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Re: CB550K noises
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2013, 02:32:29 PM »
Well it needs the carbs synced. That will eliminate the majority of noise then we can go from there.
Is it running on 4?
'Then' and 'than' are completely different words and have completely different meanings. Same with 'of' and 'have'. Set and sit. There, their and they're. Draw and drawer. Could care less/couldn't care less. Bought/brought FFS.


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Offline SamP

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Re: CB550K noises
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2013, 02:42:40 PM »
I synced the carbs and the noise didn't seem to change at all, seemed independent of carb adjustments. New needles, jets, emulsion tubes looked good, cleaned slow jets with a guitar string.
Brand new plugs as well, all four pipes were hot. Checked the float bowls and all had gas.
Here's another video, in case that helps.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGAiSOyxP2c&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Offline LesterPiglet

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Re: CB550K noises
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2013, 02:46:19 PM »
Yep, that's clunky. What happens if you raise the idle a couple hundred? I don't have a tacho on mine so the needle doesn't distract me.  :)
'Then' and 'than' are completely different words and have completely different meanings. Same with 'of' and 'have'. Set and sit. There, their and they're. Draw and drawer. Could care less/couldn't care less. Bought/brought FFS.


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Offline SamP

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Re: CB550K noises
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2013, 02:54:25 PM »
Here's a video with me cranking the throttle a little (this was before I synced the carbs and futzed with the idle mixture, so you'll notice the lag between the twist and the revs): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyvvQdoPRmw

The clunks don't get anymore or less pronounced, just drowned out by the revving of the engine. The rhythm of the clunks seems to stay constant, which would make me think it isn't crank or cam related? Tranny? Clutch?

FYI, case looks good and solid, no scrapes, scratches, or scoring.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB550K noises
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2013, 02:59:15 PM »
Its probably a cylinder firing imbalance.
Done the entire 3k mile tuneup checklist?

Induction mods? Exhaust mods?

Where are the pilot screws set?

Are all four exhaust pipes equally hot?

Listening to your latest video, I'd worry about a bent valve from improper cylinder cover installation.   Done a compression check?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline SamP

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Re: CB550K noises
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2013, 03:20:48 PM »
Since I bought it with 18k on the clock, I figured I was starting over from scratch. New oil, filter, gapped points, checked the spark advance, valve clearances with the top end rebuild. Did not do a compression test since the rebuild (wanted to give the rings a chance to seat somewhat before checking) but before that it was 120, 110, 70, 100, and the 3rd cylinder bumped up to 90 with oil, hence the new rings.
Stock airbox with a foam filter, 4 to 1 pipes. No other mods to my knowledge.
Pilot screws at 1.5 turns out from lightly seated.
Didn't check pipes for exact temps, but they were too hot to touch for long.
As for valves, I can check them now since I've got the cases split.

It does sound like an imbalance of some sort....as the RPMs slow down, it seems like it's going 1, 2, 3......4, 1, 2, 3.....4. Just not sure which cylinder or why.

Offline SamP

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Re: CB550K noises
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2013, 07:13:34 PM »
Ok, so I got some work done today. I decided to take a look at the top end since TT mentioned the valves. Noticed a few things I might have overlooked in my hurry to get in and split the cases.

When I rebuilt the top end, I torqued all the bolts to the lower side of spec, but it might not have been tight enough after all (manual torque wrench). Looks like oil was getting into the chamber, though there were no leaks outside. Slick, oily residue that doesn't smell like gas in all chambers except 4 (which was running extra lean due to pilot jet blockage and upside down floats). Valve stem seals were all in place and accounted for, no oil on the valve stems beyond the seal, which is why I think torque wrench malfunction (user error).




In the process of removing the valves, I checked the exhaust valves first, replaced them, then started on the intake. When I flipped it over I accidentally pulled out the #2 exhaust again, and this time it stuck really bad on the way out, wouldn't go back in without a fight so I didn't make it. Not sure if it's galled on the end of the stem, or if I bent it when I reinstalled it, but it did NOT want to go back in. Removed all the valves again and checked that all  were good and seated. Tested the other exhaust valves in valve guide #2's place to make sure it hadn't gouged the inside, and they felt smooth. So now I know I need to replace #2 exhaust valve - don't remember it being like that the first time, but I might have overlooked it.

Took a look at the pistons and noticed a hell of a lot more scoring on the skirts than I remembered during my previous rebuild. I didn't measure their width, nor the bore (no tools), but I ordered digital calipers and will check those. But judging by the scoring on the skirts and the jugs, it almost looks as if the pistons were bouncing around in their respective cylinders - scoring is evident in each cylinder, more prominently on the intake and exhaust sides of each bore, though there is some on each side. Not sure if this is what it looks like for the rings to seat, but this is how it looks. Fingernails don't catch, but you can see and feel that they are there. Lastly, there seems to be a little black splotch on the skirt of each piston on the intake side (visible in some photos). I don't know what that would indicate, but it doesn't wipe away very easily.





I also checked the the clearances of the sides of the piston rods to crank shaft. I could jostle the arms back and forth a bit (enough to make noise), but could not get a .35mm feeler all the way to the crank. It would stop on some part just above where the bearing meets the crank, so while it was technically between it, it wasn't on the shaft of the crank so I think it's ok (Clymer's wasn't very clear on this one).

And finally I made a video of the tranny countershaft bearing. You can see the rust starting to form on it, and you can hear the rattle it makes even when turning and jostling at low speeds when spun manually. But like I said before - this connects to the drive sprocket, and would not be turning or moving at all in idle at neutral, correct? Regardless, I think it might need replacing.
http://youtu.be/xOc173oPysI

Now with all this in conjunction with that rough sounding idle...what else should I be looking for? I still feel like there is something I'm missing deeper in the case.

Offline dave500

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Re: CB550K noises
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2013, 08:16:18 PM »
your letting it idle too low,was that a vacuum sync you did?

Offline SamP

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Re: CB550K noises
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2013, 08:32:47 PM »
I was trying to go by spec, which Clymer's says is 1000. It's at 1100 or so in the video, and it still sounds like it's labored.
Sync was done with a homemade manometer. I checked for vacuum leaks before, sprayed some wd40 around the boots, nothing.

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Offline dave500

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Re: CB550K noises
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2013, 08:34:05 PM »
bit late now but you couldve just wound the rpm up so it runs smoother,they dont idle cold well anyway.

Offline jonda500

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Re: CB550K noises
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2013, 08:36:39 PM »
sounds like standard primary chain rattle to me(mine sounds worse than that)- does it quiet down when you put it in gear and let the clutch out a little?
Remember that an ignoramus is only someone who doesn't know something you just learned yesterday!

A starter clutch thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,122084.0.html
1972 CB500K1 original 4 owner bike
1972 CB500K1 returned to complete/original condition
1975 CB550F built from parts - project thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,149161.msg1711626.html#msg1711626
197? CB500/550 constructing from left over parts
1998 KTM 380 (two stroke) recent impulse buy, mmmm...

Offline SamP

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Re: CB550K noises
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2013, 08:56:13 PM »
Dave - Yeah, a little late, but judging by the "work" done by previous owners, I felt it was necessary to go big or go home. I didn't want to end up hiding a rattle that needed serious attention (especially when I saw the black sludge that drooled its way out of the oil pan). And now with the pistons looking like they do, there's THAT to contend with.

Jonda - I think it might be primary chain rattle as well, but the chain doesn't look in too bad a shape. Any specs for how much stretch before these chains (primary and cam) need to be replaced? They look alright, but with over 18k miles and dubious POs, I want to make sure that I do everything I can while I have it split. It does/did seem to quiet down a bit under load, but I was riding, so I couldn't really listen well - could have been drowned out by engine revs. I wish I had thought of that before.

Offline dave500

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Re: CB550K noises
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2013, 09:50:06 PM »
mine will sound like that if i start it from cold and let it idle,the early ones like mine have a thumb screw under the throttle so you can hold a faster idle as you gear up and warm the engine,once hot itll idle smooth and quite,videos seem to pick up sound worse and not true?

Offline jonda500

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Re: CB550K noises
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2013, 11:03:18 PM »
One of my 500's primary chain is so worn that it actually slips if you open the throttle too much at low revs, and now has started to slip when you back off from high revs (sounds horrible I don't ride it any more and a new chain($115) is on its way) but I don't know how long it was rattling for before it started jumping around the teeth as I bought it from the wreckers when I broke my fourth gear in my original motor.
   Personally with the chain already rattling I would do my utmost to find the money for a new chain if I had the cases split any way unless you're happy to live with the rattle.
   
Remember that an ignoramus is only someone who doesn't know something you just learned yesterday!

A starter clutch thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,122084.0.html
1972 CB500K1 original 4 owner bike
1972 CB500K1 returned to complete/original condition
1975 CB550F built from parts - project thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,149161.msg1711626.html#msg1711626
197? CB500/550 constructing from left over parts
1998 KTM 380 (two stroke) recent impulse buy, mmmm...

Offline dave500

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Re: CB550K noises
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2013, 11:50:53 PM »
whoa jonda you fair dinkum?sure its not the clutch slipping or the drive chain?i hope your case hasnt worn through where the primary can eat into the main oil output gallery?you might need to post some pics of the primary drive hub and crank drive sprocket once you get it apart,ive/weve never heard of a jumping/slipping primary chain yet?look for wear here in your cases.
sort of mid shot here,that tubular looking bit with the rub mark,thats the main oil pump output,you wear that through and youll get low oil pressure.

itll also hit the cases here.

as i said they all sound crap try to maintain idle when cold or too low rpm,or when they need a vacuum sync,ignore any notions of performing a "good" bench sync,did you connect all the hoses of your homemade manometer SamP to one vacuum source and square them up?if not i think your sync is well out?
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 11:58:11 PM by dave500 »

Offline jonda500

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Re: CB550K noises
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2013, 12:11:36 AM »
Yep serious - the clutch or the drive chain wouldn't suddenly start slipping at the same intance that I changed the motor (I had to use my original clutch and used the same drive chain). I probably should have returned the motor to the wreckers for a refund but having spent a lot of time cleaning and installing it I was happy to learn to be gentle on the throttle at low revs - but now several years later I can't stand the feel or the sound of something slipping/jumping/clunking below when backing off from high revs.
Remember that an ignoramus is only someone who doesn't know something you just learned yesterday!

A starter clutch thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,122084.0.html
1972 CB500K1 original 4 owner bike
1972 CB500K1 returned to complete/original condition
1975 CB550F built from parts - project thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,149161.msg1711626.html#msg1711626
197? CB500/550 constructing from left over parts
1998 KTM 380 (two stroke) recent impulse buy, mmmm...

Offline dave500

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Re: CB550K noises
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2013, 12:22:42 AM »
man drop the pan and show us some clear pictures of the chain,maybe a quick vid of the primary chains slop?!if you used the original clutch is it adjusted correctly?was the front drive sprocket swapped with the motor?

Offline jonda500

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Re: CB550K noises
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2013, 01:01:02 AM »
I will, but it may be a little while as I'm working on two other projects too- another 500 and a built from parts 550Fss, but I am sure it's not the clutch and yes I used my original sprocket/chain - chain has stretched unevenly but hasn't done many miles(I already have a new o ring chain (with split link) waiting in the cupboard) so although I don't really know for sure I am betting it's the primary chain! The symtons are similar to the broken fourth gear jumping in the original motor only it does it in all the gears.
Remember that an ignoramus is only someone who doesn't know something you just learned yesterday!

A starter clutch thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,122084.0.html
1972 CB500K1 original 4 owner bike
1972 CB500K1 returned to complete/original condition
1975 CB550F built from parts - project thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,149161.msg1711626.html#msg1711626
197? CB500/550 constructing from left over parts
1998 KTM 380 (two stroke) recent impulse buy, mmmm...

Online bryanj

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Re: CB550K noises
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2013, 01:05:10 AM »
Having worked on thes for too many years to tell I would say that it is impossible to get a primary chain so slack that it can jump on the teeth of either the crank or the primary sprocket unless it has already worn a hole all the way through the cases!!!

Or to put it another way I am fairly certain it's a different problem
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Offline dave500

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Re: CB550K noises
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2013, 02:17:49 AM »
im with bryanj here,also DO NOT use an o ring chain on your 500 or 550!!!they are too wide and will rub the cases,if it doesent rub it will scrape the germs off,try and take it back if its unused still packaged and swap it,99.9% shops will not know the oring chain is not suitable on these engines,dont take any rubbish from them like we sell heaps for 500s or what ever!the o ring chain wasnt invented yet,it clears on most other early makes and models but not these,they are a wider chain,just use a good quality heavy(or standard duty)normal chain,you wont break it ,it wont wear out early.
heres a file photo,this is a 550,that rubber coated seal on the 500s has a hole the clutch rod passes through,this ones a little worn from an oring chain rubbing it,even the case just above has been hit,on the 500s the heavier o ring chain also just clears the clutch rod by luck.

this wear is caused by the wider pins,the plates are also heavier and thicker so try and picture how close it all runs to the clutch rod.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2013, 02:40:17 AM by dave500 »

Offline SamP

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Re: CB550K noises
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2013, 04:44:43 AM »
Mine had an o-ring chain on it when I bought it. After close inspection I could see where it was rubbing and uninstalled it, but lord knows how long it was on there. The rubber part has some wear, but none on the case, thankfully.
I think I read on here somewhere that you can swap out your sprockets for 520s if you want an o-ring chain, but no confirmation here.

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Offline LesterPiglet

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Re: CB550K noises
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2013, 04:53:51 AM »
I was trying to go by spec, which Clymer's says is 1000. It's at 1100 or so in the video, and it still sounds like it's labored.

That's why I said I don't get distracted by the tacho needle.
'Then' and 'than' are completely different words and have completely different meanings. Same with 'of' and 'have'. Set and sit. There, their and they're. Draw and drawer. Could care less/couldn't care less. Bought/brought FFS.


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Offline dave500

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Re: CB550K noises
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2013, 04:55:13 AM »
yeah youll look hard for 520 gear,what for?just run a normal non oring chain,its not the be all and ends all,dirt bikes benefit mostly from them,keep it clean and regular lube and itll last as long,dont buy a cheap no name one though,use rk/ek/did brand,and ignore the tacho,most speak with forked tongue or read wrong anyway,some tell lies,it should have a brisk happy tick over,not a chugg chugg chugg cant get out of bed attitude.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2013, 04:58:55 AM by dave500 »