Author Topic: The most accurate compression gauge...  (Read 17103 times)

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Offline Deltarider

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Re: The most accurate compression gauge...
« Reply #50 on: January 05, 2014, 11:45:42 AM »
Quote
If you guys think that accuracy doesn't matter, then please keep using the $15 gauge at Harbor Freight, and exit this thread.
Here's how I test compression. 1. Remove sparkplug 2. Press thumb over plughole 3. Let helper operate starter. 4. Evaluate. When thumb is blown of the hole: compression is sufficient. When thumbs stays put over hole: compression is bad. All as a rule of thumb ofcourse.
Now if you will excuse me, I'll exit this thread now... gentlemen.
O, and don't forget to ride your bike. Yes, you can.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 11:48:47 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline jonda500

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Re: The most accurate compression gauge...
« Reply #51 on: January 05, 2014, 04:41:51 PM »
Delta you must have extremely long thumbs! Wish my thumbs or fingers were 5 inches long so I could use this rule of thumb method!
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fendersrule

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Re: The most accurate compression gauge...
« Reply #52 on: January 07, 2014, 12:47:51 PM »
I talked to a friend at work. He's insanely smart. Not sure what his role is here at work, but he knows a lot about engines and physics. Here's our conversation which may better help explain the chart that's been posted. My initial email is in green:

I wanted to ask do you believe that we should be making compression corrections being that we are 2700 feet in the air?

“Altitude and temperature also affect the compression readings. Manufacturer’s specifications are almost always given at a specific altitude (14.7 psi at sea level), and 59° Fahrenheit. Both temperature and barometric pressure change as you go up in altitude, so you will need to correct your measurements if you wish to compare it with a factory specification. The following chart provides conversion factors for correctly compensating for changes in altitude:

Compression Test Altitude Compensation Factors

Altitude Factor
500 0.987
1500 0.960
2500 0.933
3500 0.907
4500 0.880
5500 0.853
6500 0.826
7500 0.800
8500 0.773”

The way I interpret this is if I get 150 PSI @ 2500 feet, I would multiply 150 x 1.067 to give me sea level compression. That leaves you with about 160 PSI if you were to test it at sea level. Or, do I have it backwards?


His response:

"Or divide it by the factor and save the subtraction problem, e.g. 150/.933 = 160.7.  Psig is differential pressure between atmosphere and measured pressure.  If you took the altitude compensation all the way into space—essentially vacuum--you’d be reading absolute pressure.  So this helps compensate.

If you’re going for accuracy, then yes.

You are going about it backward, though.  If the mfgr references sea level for their reading, you’ll take their reading times the factor.  Thus, a spec’d 160 psi * .933 = 149.3 at 2,500 feet.

On compression testing, I use both.  The reading per cylinder tells me whether the cylinder meets spec.  The relative readings between cylinders tell me if I have a problem."
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 12:49:22 PM by fendersrule »

fendersrule

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Re: The most accurate compression gauge...
« Reply #53 on: January 08, 2014, 05:40:54 PM »
The 12mm Kawasaki NOS adaptor arrived today.



« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 05:42:59 PM by fendersrule »

Offline LesterPiglet

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Re: The most accurate compression gauge...
« Reply #54 on: January 08, 2014, 06:32:27 PM »
Quote
If you guys think that accuracy doesn't matter, then please keep using the $15 gauge at Harbor Freight, and exit this thread.
Here's how I test compression. 1. Remove sparkplug 2. Press thumb over plughole 3. Let helper operate starter. 4. Evaluate. When thumb is blown of the hole: compression is sufficient. When thumbs stays put over hole: compression is bad. All as a rule of thumb ofcourse.
Now if you will excuse me, I'll exit this thread now... gentlemen.
O, and don't forget to ride your bike. Yes, you can.
That's the way to do it.
'Then' and 'than' are completely different words and have completely different meanings. Same with 'of' and 'have'. Set and sit. There, their and they're. Draw and drawer. Could care less/couldn't care less. Bought/brought FFS.


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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: The most accurate compression gauge...
« Reply #55 on: January 08, 2014, 08:15:58 PM »
If you guys think that accuracy doesn't matter, then please keep using the $15 gauge at Harbor Freight, and exit this thread.

Thanks.

A compression tester was never meant to be a perfectly accurate test. It gives you a general idea of which cylinder is shot if you have a problem (i.e. if one cylinder tests at half the compression of the other three). This is like searching for the most accurate ruler because you want to measure your cylinder bores. There is no real hard line for compression readings that means it needs to be rebuilt. Nobody would ever say "oh, 140psi is fine, but 139psi means you need a rebuild"...

A leak down test tends to be more accurate, and tells you where you are losing your compression to (which a basic compression test does not). A compression test only tells you good or bad, then if it is bad you need to do a leak down test to find out where the problem is. Because of this, I don't see any reason ever to do a compression test, I just go straight to the leak down test and be done with it.

+1

You will NEVER get the accuracy you crave and there's really no point to it, As your "insanely smart" friend said "The reading per cylinder tells me whether the cylinder meets spec.", those "specs" have a + and - value {within spec}, NO compression gauge is 100% accurate, as has already been said {how many times?} , its an indication of whats going on inside your engine.. Your selective hearing makes you look foolish..... I'm  not the only one pointing this out..... ::)
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Markcb750

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Re: The most accurate compression gauge...
« Reply #56 on: January 09, 2014, 12:11:04 PM »
Will the gauges be more accurate if I use synthetic oil to lubricate it?




 ;) ::)

fendersrule

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Re: The most accurate compression gauge...
« Reply #57 on: January 14, 2014, 05:37:07 PM »
Gauge arrived:




Now I can finally compare. It's a PITA to remove the spark plugs on a SOHC though with hot pipes. I'll probably do this on the weekend when I have more time.

fendersrule

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Re: The most accurate compression gauge...
« Reply #58 on: February 01, 2014, 03:25:39 PM »
I am pleased to announce that I have results using the Kawasaki Service Shop gauge.

And I'm pleased to announce that this is the most accurate gauge I have tested so far. I feel that it is accurate enough to stop comparing gauges at this point. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. This gauge is not cheap, but I'm glad it's in my collection. If you want to know how to get it, you can contact a Kawsaki dealer and they can special order one for you. The adaptors however are out of production so good luck looking. I'm still looking for a 12mm adaptor. The gauge (#57001-221) is about $100 and the adaptors can range anywhere from $40-120 depending on how patient you are.

I used the 14mm adaptor (# 57001-1183) and I'm also happy to announce that it fits all of the SOHC4 cylinders, #2 being the most challenging but still fairly easy.

1978 CB750k. It hasn't been started in a month. I brought the shop fan up to it, and let it idle for 15 minutes while revving it to make sure it gets nice and hot. Worked real fast and removed the plugs faster than I have ever done before. As always, I suffered from one burn. I hate dealing with plugs on SOHC 4s.

Pressure in KPa:

Cyl 1: 1020
Cyl 2: 940
Cyl 3: 993
Cyl 4: 990

Here is a chart showing the comparison showing the Atron gauge which came highly recommended for motorcycles:







Conclusion:

he Kawasaki gauge is likely more sensitive (which means accurate) by reading cylinders 2 and 3 higher and therefor, reducing the cylinder variance. This will in-turn will give you a closer, more accurate reading to what's printed in your shop manuals and possibly save you from having to tear down something that is perfectly fine (make sure to follow this up with a leak down test). It's not hard to leap to the conclusion that this gauge is more sensitive. The hose is shorter. The air volume of the hose is smaller. And this goes without saying, but the gauge is higher quality, and was built specifically for testing motorcycles.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 03:51:37 PM by fendersrule »

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: The most accurate compression gauge...
« Reply #59 on: February 01, 2014, 08:04:30 PM »
How can you blame all the discrepancies on the gauges...?  I bet if you continually replicated these tests you would get varying numbers regularly . If the other gauges were all reading slightly differently the readings should also be consistently out by close to the same amount. I imagine if you keep testing with any of those gauges you will get numbers you like sooner or later, there are too many variables to get compression tests dead accurate as you've been continuously told in this thread....
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Offline dave500

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Re: The most accurate compression gauge...
« Reply #60 on: February 01, 2014, 10:20:00 PM »
the guage itself is still only a pressure guage,so what?

Offline seanbarney41

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Re: The most accurate compression gauge...
« Reply #61 on: February 02, 2014, 12:31:03 AM »
Fenders just wants a gauge that has only one number on it... 180psi, 180 psi, 180psi, 180psi...now that's really accurate!
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline martin99

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Re: The most accurate compression gauge...
« Reply #62 on: February 02, 2014, 12:43:52 AM »
Don't know how we ever managed to get any work done on our bikes back in the day without wearing surgical gloves. You see all the kids using them now. Warrafukisatallabout? ;D
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Offline Blasbo

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Re: The most accurate compression gauge...
« Reply #63 on: February 03, 2014, 12:05:57 PM »
Accuracy is not the same as precision.

Offline ZanVooden

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Re: The most accurate compression gauge...
« Reply #64 on: February 03, 2014, 12:27:05 PM »
To actually prove anything empirically, you need to test both gauges (Actron and Kawi) at least 3-4 times under the same condition. One time reading on separate days (assumed weeks apart) prove nothing. 

And if you want to prove one gauge is more accurate than another you need to check them against standards. Apply a known consistent pressure to each gauge and prove that they either do or dont read the same. Do this 3-4 times and check for variance.

You also need to know the tolerances in the gauges. If they are calibrated gauges they should have come with documentation stating the date and calibration pressure and the tolerance.
If they do not have that, then the gauge pressure reading is simply an estimate.
Here is a link to a pressure gauge calibration kit.
http://www.omega.com/pptst/DPG4000-KIT.html

If nothing else, do your compression test multiple times with each gauge, with the same engine and oil temp with in the same day. Then review your numbers.

Offline Bailgang

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Re: The most accurate compression gauge...
« Reply #65 on: February 03, 2014, 12:38:39 PM »
I've got a better idea, why don't we just leave Fenders alone on this? I too think he's being a bit paranoid or having OCD about his compression #'s but he finally seems happy with his new comp gauge so if he's happy with it then hey I'm happy for him too.
Scott


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Offline dave500

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Re: The most accurate compression gauge...
« Reply #66 on: February 04, 2014, 12:32:35 AM »
hook them all into an air compressor all at once,then have it adjusted to 100 psi by someone from the big bang theory,then compare the guages,any two engines of this calibre even with 20 psi difference will make the same power,once that fire lights off any low psi imbalance from any cranking test is small change compared to the peak pressure from the combustion man!if your splitting hairs for power youll find having the ignition timing synced between both cylinder pairs is far more important than having equal point gaps or dwell.

AJK

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Re: The most accurate compression gauge...
« Reply #67 on: February 07, 2014, 06:22:14 PM »
I like Deltariders method, because if you don't like a reading you can just use the other thumb.

Dont you just love #2 spark plug ?

Offline jonda500

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Re: The most accurate compression gauge...
« Reply #68 on: February 07, 2014, 09:37:41 PM »
I don't much like my readings- maybe I need to get #4 its own guage that reads 20-40psi high, would my bike feel faster then?  :D

What's weird though is with the engine hot after an extended period idling while I messed around vacuum syncing the carbs, the centre two plugs still refused to show a rich mixture, but when riding the performance and "crispness" just off idle is only good when the engine hasn't fully warmed up and turns to siht once fully warm- I'm getting mixed signals here...
« Last Edit: February 07, 2014, 09:51:18 PM by jonda500 »
Remember that an ignoramus is only someone who doesn't know something you just learned yesterday!

A starter clutch thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,122084.0.html
1972 CB500K1 original 4 owner bike
1972 CB500K1 returned to complete/original condition
1975 CB550F built from parts - project thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,149161.msg1711626.html#msg1711626
197? CB500/550 constructing from left over parts
1998 KTM 380 (two stroke) recent impulse buy, mmmm...