Author Topic: 71 K1 cylinder head diagnosis, updated with pics  (Read 1989 times)

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Offline setdog

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71 K1 cylinder head diagnosis, updated with pics
« on: December 31, 2013, 11:00:26 AM »
Hello, I'll try to upload some pics asap.

I have cb750 motor, cb750e-106xxxx,
The frame I pulled it from read 23k miles.

The bottom and top ends have some problems, hole in the cases by the sprocket, (replace or weld cases)and a Damaged con rod bolt that came loose and bent severely, and I assume allowed that
Piston to damage the combustion chamber.

The problem is more complex than just a typical valve job, so we can
Ignore basic repairs for now.  Im certain this is a project I would have to
Find an expert for.

I expect valves, guides, seats all need repairs.

The big question now is the damage to the combustion chamber.
The piston deformed the edge of the chamber that meats the jugs leaving a ring about 2-3mm,
Which would likely cause compression loss in that cylinder.  The other 3 seem a-ok.

If you're inclined to ask why bother, the answer is because i like these bikes and
I want to know what I'm up against.

Is this a repairable situation, if I were to rebuild this engine as 836cc.

Thanks

update

Its worse that I first thought.  Got the head of the jugs today.

If you look at the picture CYLDMG, youre looking down from the top, notice those 3 odd marks, those are HOLES filled with some kind of rubber.  Chain wore right through the jugs and created holes right through to the fins.

But at lease now you can see the dmg in the head...

Well hopefull the tranny and head can be saved.  Jugs and cases look beyond repair.  Cases I got an estimate to fix for $300, i dont think the guy wanted the job.





« Last Edit: December 31, 2013, 07:21:15 PM by setdog »
My toolbox consists mainly of hammers.

76 CB 200T. (sold)
75 CB 750 K5. (sold)
74 CB 750 K4. (current rider)
73 CB 750 K3. (build)

https://www.youtube.com/user/setdog100

Offline Vinhead1957

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Re: 71 K1 cylinder head diagnosis
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2013, 01:20:38 PM »
Any damage to the Crank?   

Offline setdog

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Re: 71 K1 cylinder head diagnosis, updated with pics
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2013, 07:43:36 PM »
Haven't really examined crank yet, too busy being disappointed in the rest..
My toolbox consists mainly of hammers.

76 CB 200T. (sold)
75 CB 750 K5. (sold)
74 CB 750 K4. (current rider)
73 CB 750 K3. (build)

https://www.youtube.com/user/setdog100

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 71 K1 cylinder head diagnosis, updated with pics
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2013, 08:32:18 PM »
Well, if you're going big-bore, the edges of the chamber should be cut back, anyway. When doing that, it makes sense to bevel them, and that may be enough to 'erase' the piston-bang marks?

The cylinders: those abound, and are not real expensive (typically $50 or so). For the K1, any K0 diecast through K2 (even early K3, old factory engines) will directly fit. For that matter, any pre-1975 "K" model cylinders will fit, but the locating dowels on top and bottom would have to be shortened or replaced with shorter ones, and you would have to get a set of the 8 dowels and seals for the deck: the dowels are Honda parts about $1.50 each, and the seals come in the Vesrah gasket sets for K3-K6 engines (aka 1973-1976 "K" model kits is what Vesrah calls them).

I may have a set of rods (maybe more than one?). I might even have a K0 or K1 crank, although any of the pre-1976 cranks would drop right in. You will have to change bearings, would be my first guess, because the stress of that rod hit would surely damage the crank journal?

For a reasonable-cost solution that would certainly make all the ends "meet", I'd suggest:
1. Either: Wiseco or similar forged pistons 812cc or 836cc (or any of the 826cc versions, if you can find one) at high compression, with domed tops so you can carve away some of the chamber(s) around the edges to clear the piston crowns while still retaining compression above 9.5:1, or:
low-compression (flat-top) 836cc pistons and mill the head 1.0 to 1.5mm, then bevel the edges of the remaining chamber(s) to smooth out that ridge in the damaged one and make them all equal, not hard to do. Or:
get some oversized post-1974 pistons for the "F" or K7/8 engines, which have domes on top, maybe a step-bore size like 0.5mm or 1.0mm, and then reshape the edges of the chambers to accommodate them. I'd mill the head, too, and end up with 10:1 CR for a snappy K1, those engines like this sort of thing! ;)
2. Valve job: this will recede the seats about 0.5mm or so and ensure plenty of clearance.
3. Replace the valve guides, at least in the clobbered chamber, as those will probably be cracked.
4. Get some new/used valves. Polish them up and use them for the new valve job.
5. Find some cylinders: lots of guys here have them lying around, and eBay sells them every day.

I am a cheapskate by nature, and like to keep rebuild costs as low as practical - but, reliable, too. Whatever you choose, use GOOD gaskets. Have the deck of the [new] cylinders milled flat, and the head at least this much, if not milled back some, so they will match and not leak.

How is the rest of the bottom end?
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline setdog

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Re: 71 K1 cylinder head diagnosis, updated with pics
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2014, 07:42:11 AM »
The rest of the bottom end appears good.  I have not found any broken gear teeth, but I suspect
debris in the bearings.  Which I think with multiple rounds of kerosene bathing
Could resolve.

Now there are several directions one could go with this.  Sell parts or re build.
If I choose to rebuild, then its repair or replace.  The replacement route would
Require new cases, new cylinders, at least.  Plenty of money too.

I'm in the frame of mind of repairing tho.

The hole in the cases and cylinder, might be able to be repaired.  Choices are to
Hire a welder or an epoxy patch solution and file to shape by hand.

I'm leaning towards epoxy because its a low cost solution and these are not
Tensile or shearing areas.  The hole in the crankcases is just compression and the holes in the
Cylinder are also compression.  Both areas just need to hold up to heat and contain oil.

Epoxy is obviously the riskier choices, but having the parts welded can be extremely
Expensive.

Of course a better engine would be nice...but where is the challenge in that.  And
If I choose to repair with epoxy, I don't think big bore is a good idea as the increased
Power would only add to engine stress.

But having said all that...simply trying to sell the tranny would relieve me of all these issues.
My toolbox consists mainly of hammers.

76 CB 200T. (sold)
75 CB 750 K5. (sold)
74 CB 750 K4. (current rider)
73 CB 750 K3. (build)

https://www.youtube.com/user/setdog100

Offline ekpent

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Re: 71 K1 cylinder head diagnosis, updated with pics
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2014, 08:38:43 AM »
Frankly because of the holed lower cases and other broken bits and other problems I would probably be shopping for a used engine and put money into a better starting candidate if it did need attention.

Offline setdog

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Re: 71 K1 cylinder head diagnosis, updated with pics
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2014, 12:05:44 PM »
here is a pic of the crank bearing for the #2 con rod, the one with the bent con rod bolt.



My toolbox consists mainly of hammers.

76 CB 200T. (sold)
75 CB 750 K5. (sold)
74 CB 750 K4. (current rider)
73 CB 750 K3. (build)

https://www.youtube.com/user/setdog100

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 71 K1 cylinder head diagnosis, updated with pics
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2014, 08:52:25 PM »
here is a pic of the crank bearing for the #2 con rod, the one with the bent con rod bolt.





Yeesh! That's pretty beat up. The whole bearing 'range' is only .0012" from biggest to smallest, so I don't think you'll be able to polish that out and still have a large enough journal to install, say, a Black shell set.

But, cranks are plentiful: I may have one from a K4 that is good. I have a K4 bottom end that was parted out to get the top end. It's snowing out, or I would volunteer to go look at it: it's nice and warm at the computer just now. :)

Maybe tomorrow?
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline setdog

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Re: 71 K1 cylinder head diagnosis, updated with pics
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2014, 10:03:45 AM »
Sure, no rush either.

Regarding this engine, its pretty much a lost cause, except maybe to someone
With access to some significant machine tools.

The crank really can't be repaired without losing to much material.
The crankcase have a hole in it across the split.
The combustion chamber is damaged.
The jugs are toast.
Con rod is damaged.

All thats left are the gears and shifter parts.  Not much of an engine.

Ahhh...the bittersweet relief of reality has finally set in.

But...ever the optimist, this is still a great learning device.  And I'm OK because I'd
rather tear apart an engi e like this than the one on the 75 that's running well.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2014, 10:07:32 AM by setdog »
My toolbox consists mainly of hammers.

76 CB 200T. (sold)
75 CB 750 K5. (sold)
74 CB 750 K4. (current rider)
73 CB 750 K3. (build)

https://www.youtube.com/user/setdog100