Author Topic: Project: Over the hill -1971 cb450 (SURPRISE!)  (Read 40430 times)

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Offline cheftuskey121

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Project: Over the hill -1971 cb450 (SURPRISE!)
« on: January 04, 2014, 03:00:30 PM »
alright, its finally here! the cb450. first off. this bike is not for me. it's going to be a labor of love for my dad. I am restoring it for his 50th birthday in august. this1971 model was his first street bike, and he was in a head on collision with it. miraculously he survived but the bike did not. he has not owned his own street bike since the 80s, but that will be changing soon. this is a complete surprise, and he won't be expecting it. the plan is to trailer my 750 and his 450 up to upstate new york to his moms house secretly. I want to get the whole family together to have a surprise birthday party since he will be "over the hill". the first surprise will be me arriving (feigning an absence to attend because of work), and then I want to park the bike in the front yard where it used to reside, and unveil it to him. then it will be time to take the bikes out on the upstate new york countryside in august. it will be a beautiful time!

now the kicker is I know not a single thing about the 450 so I will be learning all over again with this different model, thankfully me newfounded mechanical knowledge will come into play. I plan on doing a full restoration (not museum) just like Yolanda. some upgrades where necessary, replacing all wires, bearings, rubber bits, expendables etc. I also want to freshen the motor with a slight overbore and new rings, chains etc. I want this to be showroom ready for him to enjoy.

here is the only picture I had to start with, and thanks to the forum here for pointing me in the right direction on what it was. I am running a project thread over on the hondatwins forum, these threads will be duplicates.







« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 03:07:06 PM by cheftuskey121 »

Offline FuZZie

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Re: Project: Over the hill - 1971 cb450!
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2014, 03:23:59 PM »
Very cool, so where can I send your adoption papers?  ;D ;D ;D

Offline dhall57

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Re: Project: Over the hill - 1971 cb450!
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2014, 04:04:52 PM »
Chef, members tbpmusic and fendersrule can inform you and give you a bunch of info on the CB450.

Great thing your doing for your Dad by the way ;)

You might have already seen this, but if you haven't check it out its very touching I think. It should give you all the motivation you need to complete this project for your Dad ;D
The Norton Project
1970 CB750KO
1971 CB500KO-project bike
1973 CB350G- project bike
1974 CB750K4-project bike
1974 CB750K4
1976 CB750K6
1977 GL1000
1997 Harley Wideglide

Offline MoMo

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Re: Project: Over the hill - 1971 cb450!
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2014, 04:33:20 PM »
good thing you're doing and a great plan.  I've owned more 450s than any Honda model-you'll find it not much different to work on than any other Honda.  Top end is dramatically different what with the double cams and torsion bar lifters but relatively simple to work on.  Parts are fairly plentiful and inexpensive.   Is the bike a runner?  If so and it has good compression and no valve leakage, why do the top end?...Larry

Offline cheftuskey121

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Re: Project: Over the hill - 1971 cb450!
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2014, 04:42:53 PM »
too funny fuZZie ;)

that's an amazing story right there dhall!

MoMo, nice to have someone else familiar around. it has 24k on the clock. the kick starter does not engage anything so I can't kick it over. it moves but its limp. I used a spare ignition I had (fits the same harness!) and got a battery hooked up to it. all lights work, although the relay is very slow for the blinkers. tried to use the starter with the button, nothing. jumped the solenoid and nothing. switched the solenoid for a working one and still nothing but some smoke at the battery terminals.

Offline cheftuskey121

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Re: Project: Over the hill - 1971 cb450!
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2014, 04:46:43 PM »
I guess I should mention I got the bike from a guy on the hondatwins forum. it was the second bike from the top in the classifieds, and the thread was 3 pages long, and had not been posted in in 10 days....not promising. sent the guy a message anyway with fingers crossed and he still had it! all together too :) ok time for more pictures, you can see all the crud and rust up close now.
















Offline cheftuskey121

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Re: Project: Over the hill - 1971 cb450!
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2014, 04:48:07 PM »













Offline cheftuskey121

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Re: Project: Over the hill - 1971 cb450!
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2014, 04:48:31 PM »


only dent in the gas tank. doesn't look too bad. or at least I am stubborn enough to take it on ;)














fendersrule

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Re: Project: Over the hill - 1971 cb450!
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2014, 04:56:28 PM »
Hondatwins.net is a great place to get info on CB450s. There's some amazing members there. Steve is one of them, and he's literally a phone call away. There's also some great knowledge about them here. The only drawback to HondaTwins.net is that there's not very many people posting, and you sometimes have to sit on questions for days, if not indefinitely. Definitely post your questions here too because there's a few of us around here that can get you an answer faster. I get more responses/posts on my project thread on my twins here than on the Twins forum...figure that.

Like MoMo said, a full maintenance check/adjustment is in order. I would begin by this order:

1) Set your cam chain tension (there's a specific method used for that that Bill Lane and I can provide to you). It's different than the manual states.

2) Do your valve adjustments (there's some hints and tips that are necessary to make sure you have a perfect adjustment). Believe me that you want to do this adjustment only ONCE and not have to redo it by working too fast or without the knowledge. We can provide you with better information than the manual provides, so ask us when you're ready.

3) Run your compression check. Let us know your altitude, your gauge, and your method of testing compression. This will give us a simple glimpse of the health of the engine. The CB450's valve system was advanced for its time, but it's finicky and it wears when abused or neglected. I personally think it wears much faster than conventional valve systems. It needs more attention than most other Hondas, but owners didn't really care to adjust valves.

4) Proceed to ignition and check/adjust the timing, clean the points, service the plugs, check the cap resistance. Setting the points on Honda twins isn't as intuitive as you may think...took me awhile to "get it".

5) Go to the carbs last. The CB450s have awesome carbs...awesome as in....so simplistic. Bowls on both sides can be dropped without any tools in less than 20 seconds total. Easy to clean, easy to service.

Biggest gripe about the CB450 is shared with other Honda twins is the damned rear fuel connection on the tank. Requires you to drain the tank almost completely before pulling it. I've gotten lazy and I just pull off the connection and spill a half cup of fuel everywhere, but whatever. Point being, plan out your work so you are not pulling the fuel tank on and off. Service the bike with new cables so you don't have to pull the tank after you decide "hey, new cables would be nice after all".

Also, get in the habit of smelling your dipstick once in awhile to make sure you don't smell gas. Gas in your oil is destruction waiting to happen. I was lucky with my CB450K7 when it was ridden for a few minutes with gas in the oil (smoked like crazy). Luckily, damage was minimal and the engine remained strong but gathered some wear. I was extremely lucky. The lesson learned was to smell your oil once in awhile.

Your dad also deserves a motorcycle that is as easy on his back as possible. I recommend ditching the crappy stock rear shocks and getting sone Hagons.

Chain, sprockets, and a new set of tires are important safety considerations. The CB450 cannot just use "any" chain either....

Your bike looks good and simply needs many hours of arm sweat and steel wool cosmetically. Do you plan on a quick and dirty refurbishment or a full restoration? Lots of things I'm seeing need sandblasting. Frame does appear to have some severe rust (maybe just the camera) and I would be tempted to strip it all down and blast it and inspect.

August doesn't leave you much time to do a full blown restoration.

The CB450 is my favorite bike (no news to anyone around here). I have two so far, and I welcome any others I find. Proportionally, they are one of the most beautiful looking bikes Honda has ever made. They feel quick, and they are a blast to ride. They sound like large bored machine guns and a properly tuned CB450 can feel like a rocket ship. Your dad probably already knows this though!

My dad threw a fit when he was 18 when his father took him to the Honda shop back in 71. He wanted a CB750 SO BAD, but his father only allowed him to get the CB450..."It's big enough". My dad thought the CB450 was just a toy and he reluctantly bought it. That is until the next day he drove it 1500 miles and found it to be one of the most memorable bikes he has ever owned. He eventually wound up with a 750 SuperSport, but he's been thirsting for a CB450 twin due to their eloquence and simplicity that is unbeatable.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 05:11:18 PM by fendersrule »

Offline CBJoe

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Re: Project: Over the hill - 1971 cb450!
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2014, 05:03:17 PM »
Very Cool project!  Looking forward to following along.
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Offline FuZZie

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Re: Project: Over the hill - 1971 cb450!
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2014, 05:22:48 PM »
I Think you can make august, fenders is right some sweat and paint will go along way on that bike.
I've little to offer knowledge wise but want to follow along.

I've had 2 of those offered to me cheap both had no papers so I never bothered, one had really nice chrome and I should have grabbed it but i didn't see any use at the time.   :(

Offline MoMo

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Re: Project: Over the hill - 1971 cb450!
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2014, 06:00:11 PM »
Pull the left cover off and try to turn the motor over, almost sounds as though it is locked up...Larry

Offline ekpent

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Re: Project: Over the hill - 1971 cb450!
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2014, 07:19:27 PM »
Pull the left cover off and try to turn the motor over, almost sounds as though it is locked up...Larry
Or pull the spark plugs and try to roll it in an upper gear like 4th or so and see if the pistons move. Some lube down the spark plugs holes won't hurt anything if its been sitting. Good Luck on the project,sounds like you got some good helpers here.

Offline Carver

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Re: Project: Over the hill - 1971 cb450!
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2014, 08:08:36 PM »
First thing i notice is the ignition is in the wrong place. Should be hanging down on the left hand side.

As fender said an o ring chain will not fit. I believe it rubs on something under the sprocket cover.

Watch out for asbestos gaskets and brakes
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Offline cheftuskey121

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Re: Project: Over the hill - 1971 cb450!
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2014, 09:20:48 PM »
I forgot to mention that the shifter does not engage anything. its quite stuck too. tomorrow I will get covers off and start messing. I just spent 3 hours trying to bleed my 750 to no avail, need new crush washers it appears.

Offline Carver

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Re: Project: Over the hill - 1971 cb450!
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2014, 09:27:15 PM »
I forgot to mention that the shifter does not engage anything. its quite stuck too. tomorrow I will get covers off and start messing. I just spent 3 hours trying to bleed my 750 to no avail, need new crush washers it appears.

also the kickstart does not engage until its parallel to the exhaust. Iv'e seen a couple threads where people think its broken because their not used to one having so much freeplay.
Cb 750 k3
Cb 450 dohc k4

Offline cheftuskey121

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Re: Project: Over the hill - 1971 cb450!
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2014, 09:35:38 PM »
I forgot to mention that the shifter does not engage anything. its quite stuck too. tomorrow I will get covers off and start messing. I just spent 3 hours trying to bleed my 750 to no avail, need new crush washers it appears.

also the kickstart does not engage until its parallel to the exhaust. Iv'e seen a couple threads where people think its broken because their not used to one having so much freeplay.

good to know, but its definitely not engaging. I swung it all the way down as far as it would go and nothing. I'll get to it tomorrow though and update. really irritated with my 750 brake...of course tomorrow is sunday so the honda shop is closed.

fenders thats great stuff. I will be asking all sorts of questions here. anywhere I can get a manual? I am sure I can make it happen by then. I got my 750 in december and was done restoring it by april, and I did a FULL frame off restore. everything was replaced and updated, soda blasted and painted/polished. it will be done, its all going to depend on this engine first though.

fendersrule

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Re: Project: Over the hill - 1971 cb450!
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2014, 12:53:35 AM »
Make sure you are properly torquing the banjo bolts with a torque wrench. Hand tight will not seal a brake system. Those crush washers need to crush. You may/may not need new ones, though getting new is always recommended...slightly used ones should still seal just fine. Crush washers can be found at any Japanese motorcycle shop...Honda isn't the only one. I think the torque value is somewhere in the 20s or even slightly above for banjo bolts.

Manual:
http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=14403.0

Projects always go longer than expected I find. I wish you fast luck getting this done by August!

I've had weird instances where the kickstarter wouldn't engine for some reason on some of my twins. Roll it around a little bit, see if you can get it to engage in any gear on the center stand.

Offline Stev-o

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Re: Project: Over the hill - 1971 cb450!
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2014, 08:01:53 AM »
You got it quick, Chef.  Where is it from, the coast?   Pretty rusty....
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Offline cheftuskey121

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Re: Project: Over the hill - 1971 cb450!
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2014, 03:34:21 PM »
You got it quick, Chef.  Where is it from, the coast?   Pretty rusty....

yes its from Massachusetts! its got a good amount of rust. gonna be fun.

fun stuff learning how to take it apart....foot pegs off, then pipes, then covers....haha. it appears the motor is locked. got the stator cover off and the 14mm bolt isnt moving. I also took the tranny cover off and the shifter shaft isn't moving. I've soaked everything in pb blaster. like the entire bike.put 50/50 acetone and ATF inside the spark plug holes. not really sure where to go from here. debating just stripping the whole thing down and rebuilding the engine. unless someone has any suggestions to proceed? this is my first stuck motor. it wont beat me though.

Offline Stev-o

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Re: Project: Over the hill -1971 cb450 (stuck motor)
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2014, 06:15:25 PM »
Pull the plugs and put a 50/50 mixture of ATF/acetone in the cylinders, then just let it set for a day. 
Then try rocking in in forth gear to break it free.  Repeat as necessary.

Most likely, the rings are rusted to the cylinder. 
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline Carver

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Re: Project: Over the hill -1971 cb450 (stuck motor)
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2014, 06:56:35 PM »
the 450 top end is actually really simple to take apart and you can manhandle the engine out of the frame solo, just grab the kickstarter and stator buldge. but you need to break the cam chain to get it off. i tied a wire coat hanger to each end of the chain so that It wouldn't fall in to the crank case.
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Offline cheftuskey121

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Re: Project: Over the hill -1971 cb450 (stuck motor)
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2014, 09:10:05 PM »
Stevo check my post I have done the mixture already. Can't get it into gear the whole shifter shaft is seized. I've tried getting it out of neutral but it won't budge. I should get the motor unstuck before I take it out right? Otherwise it won't come apart?

Offline MoMo

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Re: Project: Over the hill -1971 cb450 (stuck motor)
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2014, 02:23:43 AM »
Recollection is the clutch unit has to come off to get the shift shaft out, and you will need to take the clutch drum and oil pump/slinger off as a unit or you''ll damage the oil unit-that is to split the cases, which seems as though you'll need to do anlong with top end...Larry

Offline ekpent

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Re: Project: Over the hill -1971 cb450 (stuck motor)
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2014, 05:32:18 AM »
Hmm - with the shifting issues and locked engine you have to wonder if maybe there is a little more going on than just some stuck rings. I would play with your 50/50 mix  and the 14mm bolt along with some good heat on the cylinders for awhile simply for the reason its easier in the frame. Be nice to get it broke free before yanking it.
  Did your seller have any history on the bike or is there an old owner on the title you could track down ?  More info for you the better.