Author Topic: ABS Brakes. You're thoughts.  (Read 8009 times)

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Offline HondanutRider

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Re: ABS Brakes. You're thoughts.
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2014, 03:17:37 PM »
Well, what's been said before is somewhat "opinionated" in my opinion anyways. :o

My 2003 GL1800 has over 100,000 Km that I've put on it, has ABS, and truthfully I've never had any sense that it operated.  Once while bedding-in new pads I thought I'd give it a go on our gravel road.  I slammed them on hard at a fairly slow speed...and I didn't notice anything else than a nice smooth stop.  Tried it several times.  Hmm, 900+ lb two-wheeler on loose gravel stopping suddenly - try that without ABS. ;)

Offline LesterPiglet

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Re: ABS Brakes. You're thoughts.
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2014, 03:20:54 PM »
The point I was trying to make was if a rider is only used to ABS and then for some reason rides a bike without, there's going to be tears.  :'(
'Then' and 'than' are completely different words and have completely different meanings. Same with 'of' and 'have'. Set and sit. There, their and they're. Draw and drawer. Could care less/couldn't care less. Bought/brought FFS.


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Offline calj737

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Re: ABS Brakes. You're thoughts.
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2014, 03:53:19 PM »
The latest generation of bikes equipped with ABS do 2 things quite differently: first, they don't deploy unless sever breaking is employed (think panic situation) and second, they allow breaking WITHOUT standing up the bike.

Now, for all purists out there, if you deploy the front brake while turning, the bike stands up. Simple fact. This can result in crashes, road run-offs, path of travel changes. Sometimes the result is good, others not.

The real benefit of the new gen of ABS is that any rider can now brake safely in wet conditions, and under stress/panic situations possibly avoiding a crash. That can only be described as a good thing.

You can't objectively think about ABS as a feature when we are riding 40 year old bikes with carbs, drums, single piston brakes. These types of machines are worlds apart and only share the road, seldom the same owners. For me, I ridden both. Never been in an accident on either. Happy to have it available, but I don't rely on it.

The ONLY safety feature I will rely on to save my life is the grey matter tucked under a new every 5 year Arai. I challenge you nay-sayers to go ride a modern bike with ABS and traction control and then tell me it doesn't improve your ability to ride. Should we condemn new riders who only learn on ABS-equipped bikes or restrict their license because they didn't learn on a 40 year old bike?

A bit too facist for me... Motorcycling is a fraternity of different people sharing a common passion. Embrace what interests you, tolerate what does not. Just my $2 worth-
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Re: ABS Brakes. You're thoughts.
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2014, 04:33:34 PM »
What a bunch of crap.

Can we talk about oil now?

Offline mick7504

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Re: ABS Brakes. You're thoughts.
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2014, 05:28:08 PM »
The latest generation of bikes equipped with ABS do 2 things quite differently: first, they don't deploy unless sever breaking is employed (think panic situation) and second, they allow breaking WITHOUT standing up the bike.

Now, for all purists out there, if you deploy the front brake while turning, the bike stands up. Simple fact. This can result in crashes, road run-offs, path of travel changes. Sometimes the result is good, others not.

The real benefit of the new gen of ABS is that any rider can now brake safely in wet conditions, and under stress/panic situations possibly avoiding a crash. That can only be described as a good thing.

You can't objectively think about ABS as a feature when we are riding 40 year old bikes with carbs, drums, single piston brakes. These types of machines are worlds apart and only share the road, seldom the same owners. For me, I ridden both. Never been in an accident on either. Happy to have it available, but I don't rely on it.

The ONLY safety feature I will rely on to save my life is the grey matter tucked under a new every 5 year Arai. I challenge you nay-sayers to go ride a modern bike with ABS and traction control and then tell me it doesn't improve your ability to ride. Should we condemn new riders who only learn on ABS-equipped bikes or restrict their license because they didn't learn on a 40 year old bike?

A bit too facist for me... Motorcycling is a fraternity of different people sharing a common passion. Embrace what interests you, tolerate what does not. Just my $2 worth
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Offline kghost

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Re: ABS Brakes. You're thoughts.
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2014, 12:25:03 AM »
The point I was trying to make was if a rider is only used to ABS and then for some reason rides a bike without, there's going to be tears.  :'(

And the point I'm trying to make is most riders have no idea when the tire will lock. Especially in a panic situation.

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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: ABS Brakes. You're thoughts.
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2014, 01:22:38 AM »
Here in Victoria, we've had continually lower road fatalities every year for as long as I can remember. In the early 1970's we had a death toll of 1061, whereas the death toll for 2013 was 241, which is amazing considering that the population has at least doubled since the 1970's, and there are many more cars per head of population than there ever was before.

The cops and the public officials like to pat themselves on the back about this, claiming that the speed camera's that they hide everywhere reduce the road toll, but the truth is, improved roads and vastly improved vehicle technology (ABS, Airbags, better brakes and handling etc) are the real hero's, the old cars like Mick's EH or Dave's HQ were lovely cars, but 1960's and 1970's automotive technology was crap at best, and hadn't changed much from Henry Ford's Model T.

I've had ABS on 2 BMW's now, and to be honest, I don't know if it works or not. Both BMW's are fitted with Brembo brakes which are both powerful and provide lots of feedback to the rider. Both systems were BMW's "ABS 1" and as has been said before, it can be problematic. The K1100LT that I had caused me all sorts of headaches when I rode it to Sydney (500 miles) with no front brakes because when applied, my front brakes would lock up (not causing it to skid) and not release until I waited for a few minutes, which was scary on a wet Sunday afternoon on unfamiliar roads.

I rang three BMW repair agencies before I found one who'd take a look at it, he told me that my ABS module was faulty, charged me 300 bucks, and didn't actually repair anything. I rode the 500 miles home again with no front brakes, which might have been a problem if I had to stop quickly because I wound it up over the ton a few times to break (no pun intended) the boredom on the way home.

When I got home I ordered new stainless brake lines and when I fitted them I immediately discovered the problem, the rubber lines were breaking down internally and little bits of black rubber were balling up and blocking the lines. When I applied pressure to the brake lever the hydraulic pressure would force the brake pistons in, but as there was no equivalent pressure to force the pistons apart, the brakes would stay on. I replaced the lines, flushed the calipers and MC, and all was right with the world. I was surprised that a BMW dealer couldn't tell the difference between rotten brake lines and a faulty ABS module.

I've no doubt that ABS works, and saves lives, but I'll go against the tide and say that it's an over-complicated PITA for old farts like me who buy old bikes, often with dodgy electronics and other things that dealers no longer stock.

As much as ABS is great, (I'm sure) I'm more than happy not to have it, because on most bikes designed to have it (BMW's for instance) it's wired into just about every other sensor and module on the bike and hard to bypass. Someone above laughed off the 2000 buck module replacement on a BMW, and that's fair enough on a near new bike I suppose (but I still don't agree) but I only paid 2200 bucks for my 1989 ABS equipped K100RS SE ABS last year, so I'd be pissed if I had to shell out 2000 bucks to repair one small (and in my opinion, unnecessary) function of that bike. Cheers, Terry. ;D

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So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

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Offline toytuff

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Re: ABS Brakes. You're thoughts.
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2014, 02:59:26 AM »
Enjoyed your reply and love that beemer.

tt

Offline azuredesign

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Re: ABS Brakes. You're thoughts.
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2014, 04:48:42 AM »
Ditto Terry,
Nicely put.

Offline HondanutRider

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Re: ABS Brakes. You're thoughts.
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2014, 06:00:26 AM »
Nicely said Terry.  Now we know why its Hondas and not BMWs that we like to ride. ;)

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: ABS Brakes. You're thoughts.
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2014, 01:20:11 PM »
Thanks guys, the old girl turns 25 this year, so I can get it on the road under a "Club Permit" which means it only costs me $68 per year to ride it on the road including registration and insurance (I can only ride it for 45 days, or 90 if I pay another $68) so I better fix the leaking fork seal and get it in for a roadworthy inspection! Cheers, Terry. ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline kghost

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Re: ABS Brakes. You're thoughts.
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2014, 01:39:13 PM »
Hi Terry.....

All that proves is you're a better mechanic that the shop you took it to.

Part of the price problem is where we live. I was quoted $1200 from the Honda dealer for a Speedo/Tach unit for a CBR600. The same unit brand new from the USA would have been $700.

You would be the first to rail against the parts stock available in Australia vs other parts of the world.

I bought my new (old) Yamaha FJ1200 today, and dropped it before it was an hour old.

I'd done around 40 miles without incident and it was running great, but around 500 metres from home there's a curve with some yellow "ripple strips" on it, and as it was lightly raining it was enough to momentarily lose traction, and I threw it down the road.


Would ABS have helped you there?
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: ABS Brakes. You're thoughts.
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2014, 02:14:32 PM »
Power brakes, Disc brakes, Automatic transmissions, power steering, Windshield wipers, steel belted radial tyres.........

All improvements. Should we learn without them?

Seriously.....ABS Antilock Brake System......Its gonna help you right before the wheel locks up.

Most people can't or won't get close to that except by accident or while having same lol

Sorry Tim but i disagree mate, all the other improvements you mentioned are mechanical improvements to make the vehicle better to drive and don't take anything away from the drivers ability to know his or her limits, brakes,  antilock brakes do, they also give a false sense of security. I agree that there are a lot of people that don't understand braking on a bike {which is more of a problem than anything mentioned here} But properly applied brakes isn't that hard to understand ,  its not just about "hitting" the brakes, its about feel and knowing the limits of your machine, when you actually know what you are doing its quite hard to lock the front. It blows me away the amount of people that have no confidence in their front brake or are scared to use it hard. Everyone should test the limits of their front brakes in a straight line to understand just how much braking force there is available, by squeezing the brake continuously until it feels or starts to chirp, which happens before it locks completely, dirt bikes are great to practice this on, on the dirt of course. Gadgets like anti lock brakes, while they do work well and have their place, do nothing to educate people on proper brake application,  it also increases the likelihood of someone accustomed to antilock brakes only, having an accident the first time they ride on a bike without them because you can panic brake and squeeze them {anti lock} past the point of no return without the dangerous consequences of normal brakes , so my point is , rider education is the safest option of the lot..   ;)
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Offline HondanutRider

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Re: ABS Brakes. You're thoughts.
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2014, 02:31:49 PM »
Power brakes, Disc brakes, Automatic transmissions, power steering, Windshield wipers, steel belted radial tyres.........

All improvements. Should we learn without them?

Seriously.....ABS Antilock Brake System......Its gonna help you right before the wheel locks up.

Most people can't or won't get close to that except by accident or while having same lol

Sorry Tim but i disagree mate, all the other improvements you mentioned are mechanical improvements to make the vehicle better to drive and don't take anything away from the drivers ability to know his or her limits, brakes,  antilock brakes do, they also give a false sense of security. I agree that there are a lot of people that don't understand braking on a bike {which is more of a problem than anything mentioned here} But properly applied brakes isn't that hard to understand ,  its not just about "hitting" the brakes, its about feel and knowing the limits of your machine, when you actually know what you are doing its quite hard to lock the front. It blows me away the amount of people that have no confidence in their front brake or are scared to use it hard. Everyone should test the limits of their front brakes in a straight line to understand just how much braking force there is available, by squeezing the brake continuously until it feels or starts to chirp, which happens before it locks completely, dirt bikes are great to practice this on, on the dirt of course. Gadgets like anti lock brakes, while they do work well and have their place, do nothing to educate people on proper brake application,  it also increases the likelihood of someone accustomed to antilock brakes only, having an accident the first time they ride on a bike without them because you can panic brake and squeeze them {anti lock} past the point of no return without the dangerous consequences of normal brakes , so my point is , rider education is the safest option of the lot..   ;)

All said is very true...except I still doubt that even you couldn't get the be-jeesus scared out of you and unintentionally grab a mit full instead of smoothly squeezing.  Add to that some less than optimum surface (e.g. wet pavement, gravel, or sand) and you'll either be hitting the surface or failing to stop.

Once saw a demo by a Honda rider on a ST1200 with linked ABS.  Rider came into a patch of pavement that had been covered with loose gravel and did a very quick stop, without incident.  You could see both wheels pulsing while they continued to rotate and stop on the very slippery surface.  The feat was repeated with the right hand raised and off the bars - both wheels pulsed the same.  It would have been quite a show to have someone try the same stopping on a bike without any ABS!

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: ABS Brakes. You're thoughts.
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2014, 02:45:48 PM »
Hi Terry.....

All that proves is you're a better mechanic that the shop you took it to.

Part of the price problem is where we live. I was quoted $1200 from the Honda dealer for a Speedo/Tach unit for a CBR600. The same unit brand new from the USA would have been $700.

You would be the first to rail against the parts stock available in Australia vs other parts of the world.

I bought my new (old) Yamaha FJ1200 today, and dropped it before it was an hour old.

I'd done around 40 miles without incident and it was running great, but around 500 metres from home there's a curve with some yellow "ripple strips" on it, and as it was lightly raining it was enough to momentarily lose traction, and I threw it down the road.


Would ABS have helped you there?

G'Day Tim, no mate, as I discovered a few days after I posted that, unbeknown to me at the time, the owner delivered it to my place with around 6 psi of air in both tyres, and when I leaned into the corner the tyres just rolled off the rims.

I was in a hurry, it was a rainy Monday and I'd arranged for him to deliver it in my lunchtime. I gave it a quick once-over and gave him his bucks, and took it for a quick ride.

I was actually riding to a gas station to check the tyres but it started to rain heavily, so I turned around and dropped it only a few hundred yards from my place. From memory I didn't even touch the brakes. I've since ridden it with the tyres properly inflated, and it goes around corners really well! ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline toytuff

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Re: ABS Brakes. You're thoughts.
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2014, 03:11:05 PM »
What kind of oil would you use in the engine if the bike had ABS?

 ;D

Interesting topic to say the least.  ;)

tt

Offline LesterPiglet

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Re: ABS Brakes. You're thoughts.
« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2014, 03:48:59 PM »




I must say that I haven't seen any BMW sickles that are attractive to me before this. Nice one Terry
'Then' and 'than' are completely different words and have completely different meanings. Same with 'of' and 'have'. Set and sit. There, their and they're. Draw and drawer. Could care less/couldn't care less. Bought/brought FFS.


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Offline kghost

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Re: ABS Brakes. You're thoughts.
« Reply #42 on: January 10, 2014, 10:03:36 PM »

Sorry Tim but i disagree mate, all the other improvements you mentioned are mechanical improvements to make the vehicle better to drive and don't take anything away from the drivers ability to know his or her limits, brakes,  antilock brakes do, they also give a false sense of security.

If it works its not a "False" sense of security. Its security and safety period.

I agree that one should know how to brake and generally ride a motorbike.

Any safety device is no substitute for brains....you can't fix stupid.

You can however fix the "panic stop" crash, the "Slippery surface" crash, and a couple others.......with ABS
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Re: ABS Brakes. You're thoughts.
« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2014, 10:24:32 PM »
So what you are saying is, if you have ABS you will never fall down, right?

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: ABS Brakes. You're thoughts.
« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2014, 11:18:37 PM »




I must say that I haven't seen any BMW sickles that are attractive to me before this. Nice one Terry

Thanks Les, I'd only ever seen one of the blue and white "SE"s before, back in 1991 when I went for a ride with the BMW club and the owner threw it away around a corner on a wet road (ABS doesn't stop bikes from sliding out of control on wet roads when the tyres just lose their grip, sadly) and went over an embankment.

The bike was pretty much undamaged, and he was OK as he was wearing full leathers, but as the embankment was about a 10 foot straight drop into blackberries, he had to call a towtruck to winch him out. The tow truck driver allowed the owner to hook up the winch cable and walk beside the bike as he winched it up, but didn't hear him screaming to stop when he fell over and the bike was being dragged up the embankment on it's side.

I thought it was hilarious at the time because the owner was a smartarse and threw the bike away because he was riding like and idiot and had no respect for a wet road, but I've never seen another one here in Melbourne, so I wonder if I've got the same bike? It did have some previous crash damage when I got it, so maybe? Anyway, this one's a keeper, I like the old K bikes, they're easy to work on, and cheap to fix. (if you don't have any problems with the ABS............. ) ;D

So what you are saying is, if you have ABS you will never fall down, right?

Yep, you don't even need a sidestand mate, you just apply the brakes and get off, and it'll stay upright until you're ready to ride again! Oh wait, sorry, that's a Segway, I get mixed up, a lot.......... ;D

I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline kghost

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Re: ABS Brakes. You're thoughts.
« Reply #45 on: January 11, 2014, 12:23:01 AM »


Yep, you don't even need a sidestand mate, you just apply the brakes and get off, and it'll stay upright until you're ready to ride again! Oh wait, sorry, that's a Segway, I get mixed up, a lot.......... ;D


Or a Side car rig......

Of course motorcycles fall over....As I said you can't fix stupid.

Some people should not ride motorcycles.....we all know someone like that.

I have no aptitude for the piano.....so I stay away from them and do not attempt to be Jerry Lee Lewis.

The other half of falling over on a wet road is traction control......but the grey haired Xenophobe's amongst us will not like that either.

Hell when the first car or motorcycle hove into view on a dirt road in the 1900's....there was probably a smart arsed troglodyte that said horses were better.............

Electronics are bad screams the Hoi Pollie....who do so from their computers...... ::) ;D

For the love of mary....most motorcyclists can't tell you how a gyroscope works.

Gryoscopic precession? Nah too much science.

They can tell you how to steer and half of them will tell you wrong.

I love the argument that ABS is bad because people should learn to brake without it.

Its an argument that's proven so effective with cars............

Its a bit like saying you should jump out of an airplane without a reserve 'chute. After all you should learn to use the main one properly.........

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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: ABS Brakes. You're thoughts.
« Reply #46 on: January 11, 2014, 12:33:14 AM »
Ha ha, good to see that you're passionate about the subject Tim, as I said in my first post, I think ABS is a good thing and it saves lives, I just don't want it.

I don't know how much parachuting you've done, but I'll tell you from experience, you wanna hope your main deploys, because your reserve might save your life if you have the presence of mind to open it nice and early, but if you're like most folks you'll only open it in the last couple of hundred feet, so you'll hit the ground (or trees, roads, fences, houses, sheep etc) hard. Cheers, Terry. ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline kghost

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Re: ABS Brakes. You're thoughts.
« Reply #47 on: January 11, 2014, 12:38:42 AM »
My parachuting experience is rather limited. Only a couple.

I've thrown far more folks out of airplanes then leaving them myself......Perhaps if I didn't ride motorbikes I'd have a different hobby.

Terry when are you coming to visit the Gold Coast? I'll lend you a bike and Dave will lend you the beer.

 :D ;D 8)
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Offline dave500

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Re: ABS Brakes. You're thoughts.
« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2014, 01:30:21 AM »
are you having a lend of me?

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Re: ABS Brakes. You're thoughts.
« Reply #49 on: January 11, 2014, 11:52:31 AM »
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