Topic: carb cleaning with Pinesol

[KeithB]

I found it difficult to believe that Pinesol would clean carbs but thought I would try it anyway. It's cheap.
I'm impressed!
Soaked overnight in a full strength solution and the results were good. Didn't think to take pics...DOH!
It won't take off the really well aged gas residue but de-greases quite well.
Smells better than chemicals too

[flybox1]

pine sol strips off plating.  dont use it.

stick to carb cleaner or simple green. 

[Magpie]

Soaking the carbs in Simple green will turn the metal dark and even soda blasting would not bring it back to the original colour. Pine Sol worked very well for me on a set of DOHC carbs.
From the DOHC supersport forum,
I heard about this on another forum and tried it - it works. Really well.

 Home Depot - two gallons of Pin-Sol

 Dollar Store - one large plastic rectangular type of container with a lid - large enough for 2.5 gallons

 Disassemble carbs as much as you can. Keep carb parts with their respective carb bodies by placing the bits n jets into small zip-lok baggies. Everything. This will NOT hurt rubber bits. It doesn't hurt anything at all.

 Sharpie marker #1 on the inside of the cap, bowl, inside of body, and on the baggie. Same for #2, #3 & #4.

 Place all carbs n stuff in the container. Poke some holes in the baggies - not big enough for the bits to fall out but enough for the pin-sol to get in.

 Pour the pin-sol over the carbs in the container until the carbs n bits are completely submerged. Shake parts to get trapped air out. Place lid on and leave. Just walk away.

 Go for a long ride on your buddies bike. Come back, make a sandwich, pop open a beer, watch a movie with your legs up on an automan. Relax.

 So, after roughly 5 or 8 hours, you can remove parts and slightly brush with a tooth brush and then thoroughly rinse off with water. If you have an air compressor you can blow out the bodies and jets, assemble carbs and reinstall on the bike. Enjoy.

 Hope this helps, I just did this again to another bank of carbs - probably my 7th or 8th time I've done this. I love it. You will too.

Don't put any steel in the Pine Sol and overnight soaking did it for me.

[TwoTired]

Pin sol has a PH of between 3 and 4  (from MSDS).  Which is pretty acidic.  Sure is cleans well.   It also dissolves the surface of exposed metals.  I can't think of a single good reason to dissolve the metals of antique carbs.

The slides in particular should have a tight fit.  Making the bore larger and the slides smaller won't make them work better.  Same can be said for the various high precision fuel metering orifices.

Cheap ≠ better (or even acceptable)

[Magpie]

Perhaps Keith could post some pics. I have not had any issues using Pine Sol. Simple Green changed the colour of the carb bodies and that pissed me off. Pine Sol brought the metal back to a nice finish and colour. Cliff.

[TwoTired]

Perhaps Keith could post some pics. I have not had any issues using Pine Sol. Simple Green changed the colour of the carb bodies and that pissed me off. Pine Sol brought the metal back to a nice finish and colour. Cliff.

You are not going to see significant metal loss in a posted picture.   You would have to measure dimensions before and after with an accurate measurement device.  Pin sol is more acidic than simple green.  So, it physically and chemically removed the darkened metal, same as if you sanded it off but perhaps a bit less aggressive.  There are now less of your carbs than before you "cleaned" them.  Cleaners specified for carbs have a neutral PH, so they dissolve what you don't want and leave the base metal intact and unaffected.  Simple green does make an aluminum safe variant of the product, which is not the same as what you find in most home improvement stores.  The standard simple green you find in most stores, does not mention cleaning carbs on the label.  Likley this is why they won't pay claims on carbs that were darkened by their product.  They also tell you to dilute the product for degreasing engines (which often have a painted exposed surface).

[BobbyR]

I was one of the early experimenters using Simple Green and posted the results on this Forum.
I used 100% strength and a 1 hour soak took a float bowl that was filled wit Gumout for 3 weeks and did nothing, and cleaned everything out of it other than a tiny lump of crap in a corner.

There was no discoloration of the carb body metal. I did not soak the slides since Simple Green is used by model builders to remove chrome. 

[TwoTired]

From simple green's web site:
Simple Green® is a water-based cleaner with a pH of 9.3 to 9.5.

Which means it is alkaline rather than acidic.  Since PH 7 is neutral, SG can still react with aluminum, and it's metal alloys.  The number distance from neutral matters. 2.4 (away from 7.0) is less aggressive towards metals than pine-sol's 3-4 distance from neutral.  However, temperature will matter.  Chemical reaction activity will increase with higher temperatures.

If you are using a PH neutral carb cleaner, you can heat the solution to be more aggressive toward the unwanted deposits, yet have no detrimental effects to the subject metals.

With other non-neutral chemicals, you are playing a race game, that all the layers of deposits will dissolve before the insulating deposits are scoured from the metal exposing the base material.  The cleaning chemicals such a pinesol or SG, also lose some of their potency while cleaning, the magnitude of which is unknown and likely variable with the specific deposits encountered.  This is likely the reason why some have had apparent success with the PS and SG, timing of exposure and amount of deposits on which to react upon.  If you do it just right every time...
Changing the metal to dark grey means you converted/lost some metal.  Etching off the dark grey metal, means you lost that layer, at least.

The risks however, are unnecessary, imo, just to save a dollar.  Correct tool for the job.  Yes, you can drive nails with a screwdriver handle, but a hammer works better.

Carb cleaner is safer for the carb's longevity, assuming one cares about that.

[Kickstart]

Interesting thread...

TwoTired, what you're saying seems to makes sense... but then what I don't understand is why the "Aluminium safe" SG has a higher pH (10.9 per the MSDS), Sharpertek's carburetor cleaner has a pH of 10.4 at solution, and berryman's carb cleaner has a pH of 10-11.

http://www.simplegreen.com/products_extreme_motor.php
http://www.getmedonline.com/sharpertek-1220-degreaser-.html
http://www.berrymanproducts.com/products/eco-friendly-products/berryman-chem-dip-carburetor-and-parts-cleaner/

I'm thinking there's more to this than the pH... maybe "aluminum safe" cleaners are adding something to prevent reactions with aluminum?

I'm also interested to know what the best option is for cleaning carbs?

I was debating purchasing one of those large parts washers... and was wondering if I did, what would the best cleaner to put in there that would be safe to use with aluminum.

[Magpie]

In my parts washer I use 1/2 solvent and 1/2 diesel fuel. Works well on aluminium without damaging it to the best of my knowledge. I used this combo on several Honda engines. But then I use Pine Sol too. 

[Kickstart]

Most of the parts washers I see for sale specifically state to only use water based (and non-flammable) liquids as the pump is not designed for it.

What parts washer do you use?

What's the solvent you use?

[KayOne]

I have had success with Simple Green. I use it full strength while I work on other jobs in the shop. Check and scrub often. DON'T leave it unattended, it WILL discolor the carb body. I don't know how it works but it restored the iridescent finish on my round tops, PD42's and DOHC carbs.

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

I load my parts washer with kerosene......

Now back to carb dips........

[Magpie]

I bought the parts washer and solvent from Princess Auto.
http://www.princessauto.com/pal/en/Parts-Washers/20-Gallon-Parts-Washer/8022392.p
http://www.princessauto.com/pal/en/Solvent/20-Litre-Solvent/8047490.p
While it does say to use water based cleaners on the washer, I think the manual says it's okay to use solvent. You can download it from the product listing and read the manual. I think it's page 2 or 3 that describes what to use. Solvents and diesel fuel are okay, gasoline is not.

And who are you calling a dip?

[imabass]

I use vinegar in a ultrasonic cleaner.

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk

[imabass]

Another video. 

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[CoachDoc]

I use Simple Green, but now with an ultrasonic cleaner. 30 minutes cleans carbs INCREDIBLY well, and shorter immersion time lessens the carb body darkening to almost none.

[Kickstart]

I'm pretty sure that's not the most effective way to use the ultrasonic cleaner in those videos, and may potentially ruin the cleaner.

You're not suppose to let parts sit on the bottom of the tub and there should be at least an inch of fluid around all sides of the part (those cleaners are not large enough to clean carb bodies).  Those before an after shots were blurry, and I suspect the same results could be achieved by just using a bucket of vinegar and a tooth brush.

[imabass]

Your tooth brush must be smaller than mine to fit in all the small places.  8 minutes per cyle allows me to break down and reassemble the others while waiting.  Complte disassemble clean and reassemble is about 30 minute job.  I have cleaned about 10 racks of carbs from cbs to sport bikes.  Boat engines, generators, lawnmowers, other small engines... I have cleaned a ton of parts in this thing and it has held up and does a great job on carbs.

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[TwoTired]

I use vinegar in a ultrasonic cleaner.

Vinegar is acidic.  It will dissolve metals with association.

[PeWe]

Too high OR too low PH, aluminum will be attacked. Important to not use high concentration in alkaline or acidic conditions. Remove the dirt, not the metal.
I have heard of people cleaning their crankcase in alkaline fluid, left it over night, came back and found nothing left!

I saw the reaction when I cleaned engine covers and hubs in Sodium hydroxide, also known as caustic soda. Max 1-3 minutes when I needed removal of heavy oxide only, not the metal itself. I do not remember the mix, maybe 1dl in 5 liter water.

[TwoTired]

TwoTired, what you're saying seems to makes sense... but then what I don't understand is why the "Aluminium safe" SG has a higher pH (10.9 per the MSDS), Sharpertek's carburetor cleaner has a pH of 10.4 at solution, and berryman's carb cleaner has a pH of 10-11.


I'm thinking there's more to this than the pH... maybe "aluminum safe" cleaners are adding something to prevent reactions with aluminum?

You are correct.  Bear in mind I am not an expert in chemistry.   I do know enough to be slightly dangerous.   
I tried to keep the discussion simple.  But, real answers can be complex.

As I understand it:
pH is a widely accepted term that refers to the Power of the Hydrogen ion in a chemical reaction.  The hydrogen ion generally determines how fast a reaction takes place in the presence molecules that are able to combine.  However, the presence of some chemicals can block or slow the reaction time.  Or, if you chose just the right chemicals, there can't be a hydrogen ion exchange, as there are no places in the chemical composition available for transfer. 

There is also the question of the test method or device used.  If the standardized test material shows a pH indication, it may be because the test vehicle has the reactionary component whereas the actual subject material does not.  In short, the reaction can take place with the test strip, but not when applied to the subject material.  Further, MSDS pages are directed toward material handling and safety for humans.   A chemical safely stored and transported in a conveyance container harmlessly may not be so harmless in free air, or in contact with skin, or contaminated with fire prevention chemicals.

Chemistry is an entire field of education, which has complexities rivaling advanced mathematical concepts, with similarly complex formulas.

The chemists that formulate the product, determine which application it is best suited.  Simple Green makes a special composition variant which is safe for aluminum.
Pine sol doesn't make any such claims.  In fact they specifically state: "Do not use on marble, aluminum, copper or wood that is unfinished, unsealed, unpainted, waxed, oiled or worn."
The disclaimer is there for a reason.  Not only does it absolve them of misuse of product, it also warns buyers about suitable applicability and shifts responsibility to the buyer/user of product.

All three of the following products are different because of their composition.  Their applications also vary.

The MSDS of each product in the simple green line of offerings lists the chemicals within it:
Aluminum safe simple green
Water 7732-18-5 ≥ 78%
Triethanolamine 102-71-6 ≤ 10%
Ethoxylated Alcohol 68439-46-3 ≤ 5%
Propylene Glycol Butyl Ether 5131-66-8 ≤ 5%
Tetrapotassium Pyrophosphate 7320-34-5 ≤ 1%
Potassium Silicate


All purpose Simple green
Water  7732‐18‐5  ≥ 78% 
2‐butoxyethanol  111‐76‐2  ≤ 5% 
Ethoxylated Alcohol  68439‐46‐3  ≤ 5% 
Tetrapotassium Pyrophosphate  7320‐34‐5  ≤ 5% 
Sodium Citrate  68‐04‐2  ≤ 5% 
Fragrance  Proprietary Mixture  ≤ 1% 
Colorant 
 
Compare to:
 
Pine sol
Pine oil 3 - 7%
Alkyl alcohol ethoxylates 1 - 5% 
Sodium petroleum sulfonate 1 - 5% 
Glycolic acid 1 - 5% 
Isopropyl alcohol