Topic: "The Big Dog" 1000cc performance engine kit from APE??

[cafeviking]

Has anyone upgraded using this kit? What is the power like? Is it still ridable around the city or does it suffer at lower RPMs? I'm not EXACTLY a commuter but I wouldn't be taking this bike to the track either.

If it performed only at high RPMs, would a turbo w/wastegate (probably fuel pump too) make it more responsive on the low end?

I'm rebuilding my motor and I just don't see the price difference between 835 parts and 1070 parts too terribly different. My make/break is going to be whether I render the thing useless by making its performance "race only"..

Also how does it affect gas mileage?

Anyone have experience with this? 

Thanks

[Powderman]

I believe that kit is a race only kit and the temps it creates won' t last in daily driving.

[Don R]

Maybe big Jay will notice this and answer. Or you could call him and ask. Sleeves for a one liter engine are large OD and sometimes show between the cylinder fins. 
  Come to think of it, the guy that owned the local Honda shop rode one on the street with a turbocharger on it.

[cafeviking]

I believe that kit is a race only kit and the temps it creates won' t last in daily driving.

Hm, I guess I should have assumed as much.

Maybe big Jay will notice this and answer. Or you could call him and ask. Sleeves for a one liter engine are large OD and sometimes show between the cylinder fins.
 
Come to think of it, the guy that owned the local Honda shop rode one on the street with a turbocharger on it.

Oh yeah? Was that enough to cool it or?
I've heard they do show through the fins. My project isn't so pretty it needs to be "restored" but I'm strongly opposed to trashing anything for kicks too.

I could call but I hate wasting people's time on the phone until I pretty much know exactly what I'm talking about.

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

I'm the one that convinced Jay to do the 1000 kit. He says we need 8 orders. I says you'll get em  Mine is still in the basement and will get used this year hopefully. I says we need rods less expensive than the $1200 Carrillos. He says we need 8 orders. I says you'll get em. I have a set of the Crower rods he had made to go along with the 1000. We were trying to get something cheaper than the previously MORE expensive Carrillos. This kinda forced Carrillo to use a different less expensive bolt than the ARP since our Hondas don't need 400+ HP bolts. Now Carrillo has done just that and brought the price down ~ $250.

Anyway, it's a nice looking kit. I had a set of cylinders shipped to him to do for the kit. And yes, they broke through but that's OK because Jay knows what he's doing which is why I had him do the cylinders at the same time. He epoxied up the openings in the cylinders to seal them. The BIG bore will give you more lower end torque and it should be easily streetable. If you also want the high RPM HP you should consider having the head ported too to match. Having the head done and using better rods (a must if you don't want it grenading) is where the money starts to add up. You will generate more heat so you just have to be careful about your around town riding IMO. I wouldn't classify it as a commuter with the 1000. More like ma stealth street fighter   

[bjbuchanan]

I don't think you would be wasting his time given your specific questions. It is pretty rare that people even build these motors that big so you don't have a whole lot to go on.

It sure doesn't seem like you are asking inexperienced questions, like "gee, do you think I would need HD studs with it?"

[Retro Rocket]

I'm the one that convinced Jay to do the 1000 kit. He says we need 8 orders. I says you'll get em  Mine is still in the basement and will get used this year hopefully. I says we need rods less expensive than the $1200 Carrillos. He says we need 8 orders. I says you'll get em. I have a set of the Crower rods he had made to go along with the 1000. We were trying to get something cheaper than the previously MORE expensive Carrillos. This kinda forced Carrillo to use a different less expensive bolt than the ARP since our Hondas don't need 400+ HP bolts. Now Carrillo has done just that and brought the price down ~ $250.

Anyway, it's a nice looking kit. I had a set of cylinders shipped to him to do for the kit. And yes, they broke through but that's OK because Jay knows what he's doing which is why I had him do the cylinders at the same time. He epoxied up the openings in the cylinders to seal them. The BIG bore will give you more lower end torque and it should be easily streetable. If you also want the high RPM HP you should consider having the head ported too to match. Having the head done and using better rods (a must if you don't want it grenading) is where the money starts to add up. You will generate more heat so you just have to be careful about your around town riding IMO. I wouldn't classify it as a commuter with the 1000. More like ma stealth street fighter 

I'm going to run my 1000cc kit with one of Mike R;s billet 1000cc blocks with nikasil bores {no sleeves} so i won't have the heating problems you could get with a big bored standard block. You would get more bottom end power due to the bigger displacement. It sounds like you would be better off going with an 836 kit, to run a "reliable" 1000cc kitted bike you need a lot of hipo parts like heavy duty cam chain, better rods, heavy duty primary chains, Heavy duty studs, different carbs, cam, oil cooler, back cut gearbox and lots more and it will still probably run hot round town.... One more thing, turbo's are not better on low end power....

[bjbuchanan]

You are usually pretty on your stuff Retro but bottom line is turbo's make torque. Now if you size them incorrectly large (which most people do) or put a high winder one on there you get no appreciable torque. Turbos are perfect for torque, thats why you see manufacturers using them on baby motors to produce more power and reap the gas mileage i.e. ford ecoboost, audis, lexus, volkswagen

Cafeviking,

It sounds more like you would be better off with a HIPO 836. Get a wiseco kit and have the head worked over. No heating issues (that could be resolved $$$) and less expensive supporting mods

[cafeviking]

I had a set of cylinders shipped to him to do for the kit. And yes, they broke through but that's OK because Jay knows what he's doing which is why I had him do the cylinders at the same time. He epoxied up the openings in the cylinders to seal them. The BIG bore will give you more lower end torque and it should be easily streetable. If you also want the high RPM HP you should consider having the head ported too to match. Having the head done and using better rods (a must if you don't want it grenading) is where the money starts to add up. You will generate more heat so you just have to be careful about your around town riding IMO. I wouldn't classify it as a commuter with the 1000. More like ma stealth street fighter   

lol definitely a street fighter in stealth mode. Vintage japbike pulls up next to you rocking an incognito litre.. Well, one might see a dedicated turbo set up and get to guessing. Hah! So I'm starting to think if I have to do any kind of work to secure sleeves like, say, epoxy — and don't get me wrong, epoxies are found on my "one helluvu material" leaderboard — but I might have to graciously bow out of incorporating them into my motor. Not that other guys aren't made of complete balls to do so. I want that block-on-sleeve-friction-golden-ticket all the old guys are always yakking about over whisky.

I'm going to run my 1000cc kit with one of Mike R;s billet 1000cc blocks with nikasil bores {no sleeves} so i won't have the heating problems you could get with a big bored standard block. You would get more bottom end power due to the bigger displacement. It sounds like you would be better off going with an 836 kit, to run a "reliable" 1000cc kitted bike you need a lot of hipo parts like heavy duty cam chain, better rods, heavy duty primary chains, Heavy duty studs, different carbs, cam, oil cooler, back cut gearbox and lots more and it will still probably run hot round town.... One more thing, turbo's are not better on low end power....

This is helpful, I was under the impression that I could use my stock keihins jetted out with these components. I'm not going over another grand for carbs.

You are usually pretty on your stuff Retro but bottom line is turbo's make torque. Now if you size them incorrectly large (which most people do) or put a high winder one on there you get no appreciable torque. Turbos are perfect for torque, thats why you see manufacturers using them on baby motors to produce more power and reap the gas mileage i.e. ford ecoboost, audis, lexus, volkswagen

Cafeviking,

It sounds more like you would be better off with a HIPO 836. Get a wiseco kit and have the head worked over. No heating issues (that could be resolved $$$) and less expensive supporting mods

Cool, thanks guys. I'm probably going to put a tiny little turbo on it in line with exactly what you're saying about keeping it modest and enjoying the torque in appropriate/relative application. There are tons of them on ebay for cheap for ATVs and jetskiis and stuff at great prices like $150 (same products on performance moto parts retailers for $600-700 wow).

So how thick are sleeves? Can I push 836 through my existing sleeves or do I bore the block and resleeve? I feel like the answer may be "yes, both" but heat distribution could become an issue on a sleeve-bore-hone alone. Or something like that.

With the wiseco 835 pistons do I need new rods? I believe their kit is 10.25:1. I assume valves and springs are a necessary replacement with this. Cam?

I bet I can increase the performance quite to my liking with this kit and maybe the extra pinched pennies can go toward other speed technologies like angle-grinder refills and drill bits for 86ing unwanted frame goodies : )

[bjbuchanan]

Stock block accepts 836, I know personally as well as many others. Only real recommendation is HD studs with an 836 because HIPO will leak, just a matter of time

The other stuff I am bowing out, too many opinions and routes to take. I suggest you peruse the race section of the forum, you will probably get a lot of ideas fast. The general tech gets diluted by cafe dreamers for turbo and cam stuff

[Retro Rocket]

You are usually pretty on your stuff Retro but bottom line is turbo's make torque. Now if you size them incorrectly large (which most people do) or put a high winder one on there you get no appreciable torque. Turbos are perfect for torque, thats why you see manufacturers using them on baby motors to produce more power and reap the gas mileage i.e. ford ecoboost, audis, lexus, volkswagen

When i referred to torque i'm talking about from no throttle rolling on without clutch, cubes win every time, turbo's take a little time to wind up, then there's plenty of torque, think about it compared to bigger capacity engines like the ones we are talking about here....

[cafeviking]

When i referred to torque i'm talking about from no throttle rolling on without clutch, cubes win every time, turbo's take a little time to wind up, then there's plenty of torque, think about it compared to bigger capacity engines like the ones we are talking about here....

Your sig says you're running a litre K2. What's your set up!?!?

[Retro Rocket]

When i referred to torque i'm talking about from no throttle rolling on without clutch, cubes win every time, turbo's take a little time to wind up, then there's plenty of torque, think about it compared to bigger capacity engines like the ones we are talking about here....

Your sig says you're running a litre K2. What's your set up!?!?

Unfortunately its the 3rd in line in my garage as far as builds go Viking, but what i have so far is a Billet aluminum block with Nikasil bores, 1000cc forged pistons, megacycle cam, Big port head with over size Kibblewhite valves and springs with all the good stuff {Mike R has my head ATM}, heavy duty primary chains, carillo rods, back cut gearbox, fuel injection off a gsxr600 modified to suit, custom billet engine case covers and a pile of other 1 off stuff, including suspension and swingarm and wheels. Its your classic money pit but its a keeper and the other 2 i have are helping finance it, slowly ....

[cafeviking]

Unfortunately its the 3rd in line in my garage as far as builds go Viking, but what i have so far is a Billet aluminum block with Nikasil bores, 1000cc forged pistons, megacycle cam, Big port head with over size Kibblewhite valves and springs with all the good stuff {Mike R has my head ATM}, heavy duty primary chains, carillo rods, back cut gearbox, fuel injection off a gsxr600 modified to suit, custom billet engine case covers and a pile of other 1 off stuff, including suspension and swingarm and wheels. Its your classic money pit but its a keeper and the other 2 i have are helping finance it, slowly ....

Sounds A+. Do you have a thread about it on here?
Where'd you get a milled block?

I wonder how hard it is to mill a block or new jugs or something. I have access to a CNC shop (my pops). Haven't cut a SINGLE part on it yet, waiting for him to cut his teeth. Been waiting my whole life to get him on two and I enrolled in the MSF class with him this weekend after I heard he was taking it. Gotta renew my endorsement anyway. I want to be milling parts ASAP.......

[Retro Rocket]

Unfortunately its the 3rd in line in my garage as far as builds go Viking, but what i have so far is a Billet aluminum block with Nikasil bores, 1000cc forged pistons, megacycle cam, Big port head with over size Kibblewhite valves and springs with all the good stuff {Mike R has my head ATM}, heavy duty primary chains, carillo rods, back cut gearbox, fuel injection off a gsxr600 modified to suit, custom billet engine case covers and a pile of other 1 off stuff, including suspension and swingarm and wheels. Its your classic money pit but its a keeper and the other 2 i have are helping finance it, slowly ....

Sounds A+. Do you have a thread about it on here?
Where'd you get a milled block?

I wonder how hard it is to mill a block or new jugs or something. I have access to a CNC shop (my pops). Haven't cut a SINGLE part on it yet, waiting for him to cut his teeth. Been waiting my whole life to get him on two and I enrolled in the MSF class with him this weekend after I heard he was taking it. Gotta renew my endorsement anyway. I want to be milling parts ASAP.......

Member MRieck has the billet blocks, they are a work of art, if i remember correctly he still has a couple for sale....

Here's a pic of the block on an engine



another




and one more