Author Topic: Free money  (Read 5253 times)

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Offline Grnrngr

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Re: Free money
« Reply #50 on: January 23, 2014, 06:24:17 PM »
There is an island called Anuta. Google it, and consider a whole different way of thinking about life for a few minutes.


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Offline kmb69

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Re: Free money
« Reply #51 on: January 23, 2014, 08:08:04 PM »
Portions ..... omitted from the following quote:
.....
1. What I find hard to understand is what I assume are middle class folks defending the wealthy paying a lower tax rate than someone in the middle class. Mitt Romney's 14% vs. my 15%.
.....
2. Welfare and unemployment are also good things if administered properly with a minimum of fraud and abuse. The money gets spent on goods and services especially during economic downturns...it's pure economic stimulus.
.....
3. The money could be used to fix the failing infrastructure of this country for one thing.....think of the jobs that would create.
1. I am no Romney fan but get the facts straight. Romney's 2011 Tax Return is published all over the internet.
Taxable Income $15,205,496.
Taxes  $ 3,226,623.     21.2%
Charity $ 4,020,572.     26.4%

Did you give 26% of whatever your taxable income is to charitable causes? I did not.

2. You are making an erroneous assumption that the folks the money was confiscated from would not have spent it on similar stuff.

3. We recently spent $787 BILLION of "stimulus" money on "shovel ready jobs" supposedly employing 3.5 million. The President admitted in a TV interview, in October, 2010, "they never existed."

Where did that money go?


OXFAM.ORG reported this week that the wealth of the richest 85 people in the world equaled the wealth of half of the worlds population.
Top 85   $1,692,307,692,308.
World Population 7,206,206,694
1/2 of Population 3,603,103,347
If we took it all (100%) and distributed it equally to 1/2 of the worlds population, each would receive $469.68.

Then what?

I love rich people! They spend lots of money on all kinds of stuff that creates demand and subsequently JOBS!


Offline kmb69

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Re: Free money
« Reply #52 on: January 23, 2014, 08:15:32 PM »
Bar Room Economics 101

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100.
If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20." Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share?

They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.

So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay. And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20,"declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, "But he got $10!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I did!"

"That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "we didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, ladies and gentlemen, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up any more. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

Dr David R. Kamerschen
Professor of Economics
University of Georgia

For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.


Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Free money
« Reply #53 on: January 23, 2014, 08:26:24 PM »
oh boy, that is really hitting close to home considering it appears that tenth guy has been drinking his beer overseas for quite some time now...I sure have not seen him around
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline kmb69

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Re: Free money
« Reply #54 on: January 23, 2014, 08:28:12 PM »
Our tax policy sent him there. Tax him less and he will come home!

« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 08:29:48 PM by kmb69 »

Offline JeffSTL

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Re: Free money
« Reply #55 on: January 23, 2014, 09:41:05 PM »
Cute bar story but it doesn't equate to the real world. It's all about spendable income. Let's say it costs $10k to stay alive. If you make $10k and are taxed 20% you are left with $8k and can no longer survive. If you make $100k and taxed the same you are left with $70k more than it takes to stay alive. If you make $20million and taxed the same, you still have $15,990,000 left to live on. So, all taxed at the same rate, the rich guy is still rich and the poor guy is dead(without some sort of assistance)

The real sad part is that in reality the rich guy is paying a lower rate than that and the guy in the middle is paying a higher rate. One of the many benifits of being filthy rich is that you have so much spendable income you can afford to buy legislation that benifits you.

Sorry kmb69,
NEW YORK (CNNMoney)
Mitt Romney made $13.7 million last year and paid $1.94 million in federal income taxes, giving him an effective tax rate of 14.1%, his campaign said Friday.
His effective tax rate was up slightly from the 13.9% rate he paid in 2010.
He "earned" this income despite not having a job. Remember how he used to make those hilarious jokes about being unemployed while out on the campaign trail?

Also kmb69, I know you are a fan of quotes so here's one:
Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.

Abraham Lincoln


« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 10:27:32 PM by JeffSTL »

Offline kmb69

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Re: Free money
« Reply #56 on: January 24, 2014, 08:12:49 AM »
+100 calj737 - Romney's earnings were already taxed previously as ordinary income. Returns in question were mostly Capital Gains.

How did the country grow so well from 1776 to 1913 without an Income Tax?

Oh, the politicians (all parties) realized they could buy votes with "free money" or favored friends with exemptions! An Income Tax invites corruption.

US Companies are moving overseas because the US is second only to the UAE (55%) for the HIGHEST Corporate Income Tax at 40%.

Global average is 24.08% with some, such as the Bahamas, Cayman Islands, Isle of Man, and Bahrain, at 0%. Guess where they are moving?

The Canadians, who are frequently praised, LOWERED their Corporate Income Tax from 2006 at 36.1% to 2013 at 26%. It's WORKING!

Ultimately, the Fair Tax proposal fixes the problem. It taxes consumption instead of production and those below a certain income pay no tax.

Offline kmb69

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Re: Free money
« Reply #57 on: January 24, 2014, 08:27:25 AM »
.....
1. The real sad part is that in reality the rich guy is paying a lower rate than that and the guy in the middle is paying a higher rate. One of the many benifits of being filthy rich is that you have so much spendable income you can afford to buy legislation that benifits you.
.....
2. Also kmb69, I know you are a fan of quotes so here's one:
Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.
Abraham Lincoln

1. Exactly! Stop the corruption! Get rid of the disparate and unequal Income Tax "laws"!

2. Yeah, Old Abe was a real philosophical and economic genius, wasn't he?

Offline JeffSTL

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Re: Free money
« Reply #58 on: January 24, 2014, 08:30:55 AM »
Ugggh. Consumption taxes harm those who have less the most. If you earn less money you are not likely to be able to save and invest and therefore you would be taxed on everything you earn. A wealthy person would only be taxed on a small portion of their earnings.

It's quite clear that we agree on little, even about what the end result should be. This conversation, like most of these, is pointless. It's clear that there will likely be little if any meaningful change to the system, because the wealthy (whom are in the financial position to change the laws and have already stacked the books in their favor) are not going to agree to anything that could possibly adversely affect them. Why do you think the tax code is so huge and such a mess? Because wealthy people and corporations have carved out thousands of loopholes to avoid taxes.

The only reason this conversation started was because some had an adverse reaction to the idea that maybe giving impoverished people money and giving them a choice on how to spend it might be a good thing.

I'm out.

Offline kmb69

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Re: Free money
« Reply #59 on: January 24, 2014, 09:08:21 AM »
1. Ugggh. Consumption taxes harm those who have less the most. If you earn less money you are not likely to be able to save and invest and therefore you would be taxed on everything you earn. A wealthy person would only be taxed on a small portion of their earnings.

2. It's quite clear that we agree on little, even about what the end result should be. This conversation, like most of these, is pointless. It's clear that there will likely be little if any meaningful change to the system, because the wealthy (whom are in the financial position to change the laws and have already stacked the books in their favor) are not going to agree to anything that could possibly adversely affect them. Why do you think the tax code is so huge and such a mess? Because wealthy people and corporations have carved out thousands of loopholes to avoid taxes.

3. The only reason this conversation started was because some had an adverse reaction to the idea that maybe giving impoverished people money and giving them a choice on how to spend it might be a good thing.

I'm out.
1. The Fair Tax would create an unprecedented economic boom! Companies would come back in droves. All that wanted to work could! Wages would increase due to the demand for labor.

2. If one doesn't think he/she can, he/she are pretty much guaranteed failure. A matter of perspective - is the glass half full or half empty? I choose to think we can!

3. I have not heard anyone blaming poor people. It's not their fault the system is corrupt except they are most gullible to keep voting for more of the same mainly encouraged by political election "promises" that are mostly lies whether intended or not.

We should all feel obligated to help the truly indigent and the Fair Tax does not end welfare. It attempts to stop the "gamers" and the "corrupt".

Offline JeffSTL

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Re: Free money
« Reply #60 on: January 24, 2014, 09:27:36 AM »

1. The Fair Tax would create an unprecedented economic boom! Companies would come back in droves. All that wanted to work could! Wages would increase due to the demand for labor.


HaHaHaHa!
You are aware that corporate profits are at an all time high and corporate taxes as a percent of profits are at historic lows, right? They are sitting on trillions of dollars in cash. Literally. What are they waiting for?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 09:34:51 AM by JeffSTL »

Offline JeffSTL

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Re: Free money
« Reply #61 on: January 24, 2014, 09:33:15 AM »
Calh737,

Damn it! I said I was out! :)
Thank you for your civil tone and I guess we can agree that money needs to be taken out of politics.
My point about this being pointless wasn't so much about our conversation as it was that I just think things aren't going to change.

Good day and good luck.
I'm out for real.

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Free money
« Reply #62 on: January 24, 2014, 09:38:35 AM »
Quote
I never hear anyone complain about the lifetime salary and benefits paid to elected a Congress or a Cabinet appointees while dealing with these issues.... even if it's a single term

Might be because it is not true. You might want to do a little more research.   ;)
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Offline kmb69

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Re: Free money
« Reply #63 on: January 24, 2014, 10:01:25 AM »
HaHaHaHa!
You are aware that corporate profits are at an all time high and corporate taxes as a percent of profits are at historic lows, right? They are sitting on trillions of dollars in cash. Literally. What are they waiting for?
Good question. Glad to see you back by the way. They have also paid the highest taxes ever! Should be increasing wages as well, IMHO.

Many are still waiting to discover the unintended (or otherwise) consequences of the ACA since most of their participation has been deferred till later this year. They have an obligation to protect shareholder value. If you have a 401k, that might include you.

A good non-political read: http://www.businessinsider.com/politics-economics-facts-charts-2012-6#


Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Free money
« Reply #64 on: January 24, 2014, 10:08:47 AM »
You're saying after "one term" they are continuing their benefits and salary for life? I think they are jerking your chain.

A pension benefit. People on the federal payroll, including members of Congress, receive a traditional "defined benefit" pension, something that is available to only a small percentage of private-sector workers.

 According to the Congressional Research Service, in October 2006 the average annual pension for a retired member of Congress who served under FERS was $35,952, compared with the current $174,000 salary for active members.

 (Members of Congress won't be affected by President Obama's proposal for a pay freeze for federal employees — Congress sets its own pay scales separately, and in 2009 and 2010 voted to forgo its usually automatic annual pay increases.)

 A member who leaves office before serving five years because of an election defeat or resignation is not eligible for a pension. And any member who is convicted of a crime such as bribery, fraud, racketeering or perjury for acts committed after September 2007 is ineligible.

 But, on grounds that working in Congress means uncertain job security, elected members and their staffs receive a larger retirement benefit from FERS for each year of service than other federal employees. They also become eligible for a retirement annuity at a younger age and with fewer years of service.

 In return, they contribute a higher percentage of their pay to participate in FERS — 1.3 percent instead of 0.8 percent for most workers. As in the private sector, the bulk of the retirement benefit's cost is picked up by the employer, in this case, the U.S. government.

 Members of Congress can begin drawing their full pension at age 62 if they have completed five years of service, at age 50 with 20 years' service, or at any age with 25 years' service. They can collect a reduced pension with 10 years of service at ages 55 to 57, depending on their birth year.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 10:17:53 AM by Bob Wessner »
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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Free money
« Reply #65 on: January 24, 2014, 10:34:02 AM »
oh boy, that is really hitting close to home considering it appears that tenth guy has been drinking his beer overseas for quite some time now...I sure have not seen him around

That damn Cayman Island beer, saves on tax money all the time!
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Free money
« Reply #66 on: January 24, 2014, 03:31:19 PM »
Here's something to think about for those that think the system is just fine...

Quote
85 people—the richest of the world’s rich—hold as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion. That’s half the world’s population. In other words, the top 0.00000001 percent are worth as much as the bottom 50 percent combined. The top 1 percent, meanwhile, control nearly half the world’s wealth, or 65 times as much as the world’s less-fortunate half.

Tell me thats right...!!!  :o >:(
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 06:27:49 PM by Retro Rocket »
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Offline imabass

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Re: Free money
« Reply #67 on: January 24, 2014, 05:00:18 PM »
Just a fyi.  Our corporate tax code and transfer of jobs back to the states is a very short patch.  Million of low skilled jobs will soon be replaced by robots and computers that do not demand higher wages and expendive health care. 

It is just getting started.  When was the last time you went inside your bank to the teller to conduct business.  I frequent mine about once a year.  I use atm and mobile deposit for 99.99% of my banking needs.

When was the last time you used a self checkout?  One worker and computers replaced 8 workers. 

Fast food now has ordering apps for your phone.  No longer need the person taking orders and cash.  One fast food place has a fully functioning kiosk.

I was at a chilies that had s desktop ordering kiosk with credit card machine.  No longer soneone waiting on you to take orders.  Now just filling drinks and bringing food out.  One person can help 2+ the number of tables.

3D printing will cut into general manufacturing.  Just buy the plans online and print at home.  No more shipping and store shelves.


My point is that things are only going to get worse.  Higher unemployment and lower wages for the low skilled workers.  Income gap will only get wider.  The lower middle class are moving toward poverty, middle middle class will move down to lower middle....



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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Free money
« Reply #68 on: January 24, 2014, 05:21:42 PM »
Quote
3D printing will cut into general manufacturing. Just buy the plans online and print at home. No more shipping and store shelves.

Recently saw a news segment about 3D printing a home (the shell I presume). A 2500 square foot home in 20 hours!! Clearly a 3D printer on steroids, but ...
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Offline kmb69

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Re: Free money
« Reply #69 on: January 24, 2014, 07:09:34 PM »
Here's something to think about for those that think the system is just fine...

Quote
85 people—the richest of the world’s rich—hold as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion. That’s half the world’s population. In other words, the top 0.00000001 percent are worth as much as the bottom 50 percent combined. The top 1 percent, meanwhile, control nearly half the world’s wealth, or 65 times as much as the world’s less-fortunate half.

Tell me that right...!!!  :o >:(

Yeah, I wrote about this earlier. However, if you confiscated 100% of the 85's money and equally distributed it to the poorest 3.5 billion, they would each receive $469. Then what?

Splitting the top 1%'s $110 trillion across all 7.2 billion people yields $15,277 per person. Equally divide the TOTAL wealth of the world and each person gets $30,555. Then what?

You think if everyone had $30.5K in their pocket, the drunks would stop drinking? The gamblers would stop gambling? The stupid would be less stupid? No one would squander their money?

A common misconception is that the poor are poor BECAUSE of the rich. Just ain't so. Most of the poor would STILL be poor if there were NO rich.

The biggest problem with the rich/poor desparity is the ability of the UNSCRUPULOUS RICH to BUY our governments' lawmakers and FIX the game even more in their favor.

We need a WORLDWIDE LAW that says if your net worth exceeds, let's say $50K (or some number), you are not allowed to contribute to anybody's campaign! Good luck!

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Free money
« Reply #70 on: January 24, 2014, 08:23:10 PM »
Here's something to think about for those that think the system is just fine...

Quote
85 people—the richest of the world’s rich—hold as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion. That’s half the world’s population. In other words, the top 0.00000001 percent are worth as much as the bottom 50 percent combined. The top 1 percent, meanwhile, control nearly half the world’s wealth, or 65 times as much as the world’s less-fortunate half.

Tell me that right...!!!  :o >:(

Yeah, I wrote about this earlier. However, if you confiscated 100% of the 85's money and equally distributed it to the poorest 3.5 billion, they would each receive $469. Then what?

That wasn't my point at all, its the fact that this small amount of  people are allowed to rape and pillage due to their influence {as you've mentioned below}, Some of these people do absolutely nothing to earn that money simply because when you have that much it accumulates on its own, there is a whole generation of them {rich kids} coming through that didn't lift a finger to get their wealth, they inherited it with a sense of entitlement to everything and no respect {or idea} for the "common" man. You see, everyone in todays society is part of the rich mans machine or system, they think thats what they have to do  and be{thats life} to be a part of "society", I think its all BS, I am multi skilled and in an older world would be far better off than I am today, I can build my own home, grow my own food and live almost completely self sufficient,{amongst a lot of other things} the greedy ones don't want that, can you imagine if we all went back to doing as our forefathers did and did everything ourselves..?  We wouldn't have these massively rich bastards sucking the life out of society...

Quote
The biggest problem with the rich/poor desparity is the ability of the UNSCRUPULOUS RICH to BUY our governments' lawmakers and FIX the game even more in their favor.

We need a WORLDWIDE LAW that says if your net worth exceeds, let's say $50K (or some number), you are not allowed to contribute to anybody's campaign! Good luck!

I don't think anyone should contribute to their grubby little campaigns at all, let them lie and BS out of their own pockets, keep big business completely out of the political campaigning, I'm not real keen on the lobby groups either, they buy common sense and shove it down the toilet......
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