Author Topic: Vintage Speed Part Mashup - 1976 CB750F  (Read 68293 times)

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Offline Tintop

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Re: Vintage Speed Part Mashup - 1976 CB750F
« Reply #175 on: June 30, 2016, 01:26:42 PM »
754, I was thinking along the lines of doing the holes in the top triple close to the master.
1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
1980 CB750F (project)
Whittaker GBF Vintage Racing Sidecar (XS750 power) - ITG / 151's / CMR Racing Products (SOLD)
1976 CB400 SS - stock / BOTM 04/11 (SOLD)
1973 CB750 K - basket case (SOLD)
77 CB550 Cafe build
550/750 Filter Thread
Sidecar Rebuild Thread

Offline slikwilli420

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Re: Vintage Speed Part Mashup - 1976 CB750F
« Reply #176 on: July 01, 2016, 08:23:40 PM »
Another update. I guess I'm on fire, huh?

Working toward getting the clutch slave mounted. The plate I'm using has been sitting around for almost 10 years waiting for prime time. Got the mounting holes drilled and counter sunk as well as the holes that hold the slave on. Going to 1/8" quarter round the edges of the plate so it looks more seamless with the rest of the cover. The Magura slave is NOS and is the same used by others whom have done this mod.
All you gotta do is do what you gotta do.

Vintage Speed Parts Mashup: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=133638.0
Rickman CR Parts Kit Refresh: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,154837.0.html
AHRMA CB750 Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,158461.0.html
AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173120.0.html
'76F CB750 Patina Redemption: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,174871.0.html

Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Vintage Speed Part Mashup - 1976 CB750F
« Reply #177 on: July 01, 2016, 11:47:12 PM »
 :-\not stoked on this mod at all...the cable works fine, hydro clutch on the vf500 has been nothing but trouble
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Vintage Speed Part Mashup - 1976 CB750F
« Reply #178 on: July 02, 2016, 12:03:37 AM »
:-\not stoked on this mod at all...the cable works fine, hydro clutch on the vf500 has been nothing but trouble

Gday Sean, what problems mate..? I've owned a pile of bikes with hydraulic clutches and never had a problem... ;)
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: Vintage Speed Part Mashup - 1976 CB750F
« Reply #179 on: July 02, 2016, 07:04:15 AM »
Have always liked the hydro clutch on my RC51.
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Vintage Speed Part Mashup - 1976 CB750F
« Reply #180 on: July 02, 2016, 08:22:25 AM »
:-\not stoked on this mod at all...the cable works fine, hydro clutch on the vf500 has been nothing but trouble

Gday Sean, what problems mate..? I've owned a pile of bikes with hydraulic clutches and never had a problem... ;)
yeah I guess I don't mind the light lever pull...I think the design on the my vf500 is crap, the slave cylinder gets roasted and  inundated with chain sludge resulting in frequent rebuilds and the friction point at the lever is always wandering around depending on engine temperature and god knows what else.  Just extra complexity that really improves nothing.
     But then if I had that set up, I would want to use it too.  And it would definitely be cool if you are planning on running some monster clutch springs.  Rode a built XR400 with a Magura set up, the slave cylinder was amazingly tiny and really helped manage the lever pull on a bike with a beefed up clutch.
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Vintage Speed Part Mashup - 1976 CB750F
« Reply #181 on: July 02, 2016, 04:53:26 PM »
:-\not stoked on this mod at all...the cable works fine, hydro clutch on the vf500 has been nothing but trouble

Gday Sean, what problems mate..? I've owned a pile of bikes with hydraulic clutches and never had a problem... ;)
yeah I guess I don't mind the light lever pull...I think the design on the my vf500 is crap, the slave cylinder gets roasted and  inundated with chain sludge resulting in frequent rebuilds and the friction point at the lever is always wandering around depending on engine temperature and god knows what else.  Just extra complexity that really improves nothing.
     But then if I had that set up, I would want to use it too.  And it would definitely be cool if you are planning on running some monster clutch springs.  Rode a built XR400 with a Magura set up, the slave cylinder was amazingly tiny and really helped manage the lever pull on a bike with a beefed up clutch.

Generally i don't think they have as much "feel" as a cable clutch, but you get used to it quickly... ;)
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline slikwilli420

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Re: Vintage Speed Part Mashup - 1976 CB750F
« Reply #182 on: July 22, 2016, 08:02:33 PM »
I've been hitting it pretty hard the last few days trying to get back to roller status and made a huge dent in the process. A few overall pics and the front end in process.



« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 09:52:40 AM by slikwilli420 »
All you gotta do is do what you gotta do.

Vintage Speed Parts Mashup: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=133638.0
Rickman CR Parts Kit Refresh: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,154837.0.html
AHRMA CB750 Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,158461.0.html
AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173120.0.html
'76F CB750 Patina Redemption: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,174871.0.html

Offline 754

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Re: Vintage Speed Part Mashup - 1976 CB750F
« Reply #183 on: July 22, 2016, 08:40:43 PM »
Looks great, I think shorter headlines ears may look sweeter...
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline slikwilli420

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Re: Vintage Speed Part Mashup - 1976 CB750F
« Reply #184 on: July 22, 2016, 08:43:09 PM »
I spotted some ceriani ones at a recent show and now I see that I should have picked them up! They are at least an inch shorter. I'll run these for now until I come across another set.
All you gotta do is do what you gotta do.

Vintage Speed Parts Mashup: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=133638.0
Rickman CR Parts Kit Refresh: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,154837.0.html
AHRMA CB750 Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,158461.0.html
AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173120.0.html
'76F CB750 Patina Redemption: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,174871.0.html

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: Vintage Speed Part Mashup - 1976 CB750F
« Reply #185 on: July 23, 2016, 07:10:07 AM »
I spotted some ceriani ones at a recent show and now I see that I should have picked them up! They are at least an inch shorter. I'll run these for now until I come across another set.

Man, you must go to some good shows. I don't see vintage Ceriani parts ever.
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline 754

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Re: Vintage Speed Part Mashup - 1976 CB750F
« Reply #186 on: July 23, 2016, 08:02:13 AM »
Ebay lots on ebay.. But usually. Pricey.
 Picked up two sets of short ears last month.. Finally..Used to get out bid always.
 And a nice billet damper set.
 
 I set though the bolts on one got run in too far and started a tiny crack or little bump on the outside.  Pissoff Cuz the ears were polished.
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline slikwilli420

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Re: Vintage Speed Part Mashup - 1976 CB750F
« Reply #187 on: July 24, 2016, 06:33:14 PM »
I spotted some ceriani ones at a recent show and now I see that I should have picked them up! They are at least an inch shorter. I'll run these for now until I come across another set.

Man, you must go to some good shows. I don't see vintage Ceriani parts ever.

The really crummy part is seeing stuff you NEVER see and not having the cash to make it yours.
All you gotta do is do what you gotta do.

Vintage Speed Parts Mashup: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=133638.0
Rickman CR Parts Kit Refresh: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,154837.0.html
AHRMA CB750 Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,158461.0.html
AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173120.0.html
'76F CB750 Patina Redemption: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,174871.0.html

Offline slikwilli420

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Re: Vintage Speed Part Mashup - 1976 CB750F
« Reply #188 on: July 24, 2016, 06:35:06 PM »
Thanks to JLeather for the primo work on the Joker ignition cover. Awesome customer service from him. Another great piece is now in place.
All you gotta do is do what you gotta do.

Vintage Speed Parts Mashup: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=133638.0
Rickman CR Parts Kit Refresh: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,154837.0.html
AHRMA CB750 Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,158461.0.html
AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173120.0.html
'76F CB750 Patina Redemption: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,174871.0.html

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Vintage Speed Part Mashup - 1976 CB750F
« Reply #189 on: July 24, 2016, 06:40:00 PM »
Thanks to JLeather for the primo work on the Joker ignition cover. Awesome customer service from him. Another great piece is now in place.

I just commented on that cover in John's thread...beautiful... ;)
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: Vintage Speed Part Mashup - 1976 CB750F
« Reply #190 on: July 24, 2016, 09:57:33 PM »
Wow. That takes the Joker cover to a new level.
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline slikwilli420

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Re: Vintage Speed Part Mashup - 1976 CB750F
« Reply #191 on: July 25, 2016, 08:19:06 PM »
Thanks to JLeather for the primo work on the Joker ignition cover. Awesome customer service from him. Another great piece is now in place.

I just commented on that cover in John's thread...beautiful... ;)

Thanks RR! It's always good to have you stop by and check out the progress.

Wow. That takes the Joker cover to a new level.

Thanks Don! I'm super excited to see it in person later this week when it arrives. Even something as cool as the Joker cover can have a special touch added. I want everything on this bike to be mine, my own interpretation.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 08:20:59 PM by slikwilli420 »
All you gotta do is do what you gotta do.

Vintage Speed Parts Mashup: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=133638.0
Rickman CR Parts Kit Refresh: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,154837.0.html
AHRMA CB750 Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,158461.0.html
AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173120.0.html
'76F CB750 Patina Redemption: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,174871.0.html

Offline slikwilli420

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Re: Vintage Speed Part Mashup - 1976 CB750F
« Reply #192 on: July 25, 2016, 08:24:38 PM »
Still plugging along getting more of the front end wrapped up. I'll mount brakes next then I can get a measurement fir new brake lines from the splitter in the lower tree. You can see the line coming from the brake master but I'm really close to talking myself into black lines instead of the silver ones I had before. Thoughts?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 09:21:32 AM by slikwilli420 »
All you gotta do is do what you gotta do.

Vintage Speed Parts Mashup: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=133638.0
Rickman CR Parts Kit Refresh: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,154837.0.html
AHRMA CB750 Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,158461.0.html
AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173120.0.html
'76F CB750 Patina Redemption: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,174871.0.html

Offline knottedknickers

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Re: Vintage Speed Part Mashup - 1976 CB750F
« Reply #193 on: July 26, 2016, 08:10:59 AM »
Black would provide some contrast on a fairly chrome-heavy front end... From the 'head' back, it's all pretty black, so anything to tone down the front a bit so there's not so much contrast might help? My thoughts.
Still plugging along getting more of the front end wrapped up. I'll mount brakes next then I can get a measurement fir new brake lines from the splitter in the lower tree. You can see the line coming from the brake master but I'm really close to talking myself into black lines instead of the silver ones I had before. Thoughts?

Close up of the front


Full body shot

CB750 K6 http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=141388.0

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data" (Borgmann 2002:5).

Offline slikwilli420

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Re: Vintage Speed Part Mashup - 1976 CB750F
« Reply #194 on: July 26, 2016, 08:39:43 AM »
I should mention that the plan is to have some body color on the fender as well as have the headlight bucket body color too. I am really leaning toward the black lines.
All you gotta do is do what you gotta do.

Vintage Speed Parts Mashup: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=133638.0
Rickman CR Parts Kit Refresh: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,154837.0.html
AHRMA CB750 Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,158461.0.html
AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173120.0.html
'76F CB750 Patina Redemption: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,174871.0.html

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: Vintage Speed Part Mashup - 1976 CB750F
« Reply #195 on: July 26, 2016, 09:17:38 AM »
I personally like black braided steel lines.
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline 754

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Re: Vintage Speed Part Mashup - 1976 CB750F
« Reply #196 on: July 26, 2016, 09:49:12 AM »
Contrast is nice to a point, but consider the flow of the bike.
 Painted headlight color of bike works because the color does not get sliced of at the steering neck, so that works. Your lines however are not the focal point of the polished front end, so stainless or silver will  blend in and not detract from the forks. But black sticks out and pulls the eye away from the stronger feature.

 Its a problem when judging bikes at shows.. Do the parts bend in and fit and go with the flow..or doesvit look like a wheelbarrow. Of parts was added to the bike , which then looks like stuff piled on top of stuff, piled on top of more stuff..
 Its all about the flow.. Look at each part and think, does it compliment everything around it, or is it clashing.
I vote silver lines..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline slikwilli420

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Re: Vintage Speed Part Mashup - 1976 CB750F
« Reply #197 on: July 26, 2016, 10:16:15 AM »
I personally like black braided steel lines.

Contrast is nice to a point, but consider the flow of the bike.
 Painted headlight color of bike works because the color does not get sliced of at the steering neck, so that works. Your lines however are not the focal point of the polished front end, so stainless or silver will  blend in and not detract from the forks. But black sticks out and pulls the eye away from the stronger feature.

 Its a problem when judging bikes at shows.. Do the parts bend in and fit and go with the flow..or doesvit look like a wheelbarrow. Of parts was added to the bike , which then looks like stuff piled on top of stuff, piled on top of more stuff..
 Its all about the flow.. Look at each part and think, does it compliment everything around it, or is it clashing.
I vote silver lines..

You guys are killing me. I can see the merits of both points of view. There is a lot of silver tone going on up front and I thought black would curb that a bit. On the other hand, to 754's point, it may be distracting. This part is tough since I really only have a vision for the color and graphics, which right now is a deep blue with silver tank graphics. That blue will carry to the headlight and part of the fender, but that will be it for color up front. I have debated back and forth between black or silver wheels and black or silver rotor carriers as well.
All you gotta do is do what you gotta do.

Vintage Speed Parts Mashup: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=133638.0
Rickman CR Parts Kit Refresh: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,154837.0.html
AHRMA CB750 Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,158461.0.html
AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173120.0.html
'76F CB750 Patina Redemption: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,174871.0.html

Offline 754

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Re: Vintage Speed Part Mashup - 1976 CB750F
« Reply #198 on: July 26, 2016, 10:45:22 AM »
Wheels same color as tank always looks good, will frame be same as tank , i agree carry it through to headlite and front fender. Gold can look good for rotor carriers, but its so common these days. Tank color might work for carriers.
Also brake lines, if routed right should not need plastic covers, a -3 line looks the business..naked..imo.
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My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

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73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline slikwilli420

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Re: Vintage Speed Part Mashup - 1976 CB750F
« Reply #199 on: July 26, 2016, 10:53:01 AM »
I thought about wheel color matching the body color and also thought about having one spoke body color and the other ones silver or black, but am leaning away from that now, although I might try it just to see if I can live with it everyday.

I really want to do the frame silver since that will be the body accent color and you dont see nearly as many silver frames as you do black, but then I go back to having too much silver. Still no clue what color the engine will be.
All you gotta do is do what you gotta do.

Vintage Speed Parts Mashup: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=133638.0
Rickman CR Parts Kit Refresh: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,154837.0.html
AHRMA CB750 Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,158461.0.html
AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173120.0.html
'76F CB750 Patina Redemption: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,174871.0.html