Topic: Engine ticking or maybe knocking?

[hevykevy420]

I have noticed a slightly disturbing ticking sound coming from the engine when riding.  It happens at two times: 1) When I "lug" the engine a bit, then try to give it throttle to pull up the RPM's & 2)  When I really wind up the engine and get the RPM's up >6K.

I've rebuilt the engine and sorted out most of the carb issues, but now its making this sound.  I'm definitely not running rich, plugs are very clean.  Could this be a lean running condition?

I checked valves around 500miles after rebuild and they were fine.  (Set to .004 intake & exhaust per cam manufacturer's specs).  I now have about 1K miles, maybe a bit less.  What say you oh knowledgeable forum goers?

[nickjtc]

Carbs sync'd?

[hevykevy420]

Yeah, the carbs have been synched recently. I don't think that is the issue.

[eldar]

WHat fuel are you using? You need to use at least the midgrade. You have higher comp now and so the good ol' regular just wont cut it. May be possible you need to retard your timing just a bit too. Having never done the 836, I am not sure about that though. I do know you need higher octane for sure.

[hevykevy420]

I am only using Premium octane, i think its 91 here in TX.  I have the timing set spot on according to the markings on the point assembly and my strobe light.  timing advance is functioning properly.  i checked outer two cylinders for compression and got 100 in #1 and 95 in #4 with the bike warm.  I couldn't get to the middle two cylinders yet, but plan to.  i assume my compression is OK.

i will try retarding, is that moving the points assembly to the left, or the right?  will the mark then fire before the notch? or after?

[eldar]

I think it will fire AFTER. 100 for comp, seems kinda low but since it is a new rebuild and I dont know how many miles you have, things could still be seating.

[hevykevy420]

I thought the comp #'s were low too, but I can't explain why they would be.  I thought maybe it had something to do with my cam, but I do not know if a racier cam would give you lower compression figures    Now I'm worried...

i will check valve gap and retard timing to see if it helps eliminate the ticking...

[hevykevy420]

Well now I'm stumped.  This morning it was quite a bit cooler, and I didn't hear any ticking from the top end.  Is this indicative of anything?

This bike has more personality...

[dusterdude]

I thought the comp #'s were low too, but I can't explain why they would be.  I thought maybe it had something to do with my cam, but I do not know if a racier cam would give you lower compression figures    Now I'm worried...

i will check valve gap and retard timing to see if it helps eliminate the ticking...

you will get lower cranking pressure numbers if your cam has more overlap than the honda cam.

[hevykevy420]

I thought it had something to do with the cam!  The engine seems to run great and with power, so i didn't think compression was an issue unless the machinist botched the bore job or I botched the assembly.  How do i tell how much overlap my cam has?  Here are the specs from the Web cam website:

VALVE LIFT .370
DURATION IN DEGREES 290
DURATION @.050 IN DEGREES  268
GRIND NUMBER  63b

Strong mid and top end power for street-strip. Use with big bore, headers and valve springs.

[dusterdude]

try the cam manufactuer,if they cant help you,find someone that knows how to degree cams,they will be able to help you.

[scondon]

Could it be a exhaust leak where the header connects to the engine?

[eldar]

Good thought there. Many times after you remove the exhaust, you need to get new crush gaskets there to stop leaks.

[hevykevy420]

its not the exhaust gaskets.  i replaced those with new ones after engine reassembly...

[hevykevy420]

I spoke with Web cams, and they think I'm actually having contact between my valves and the pistons because of the added cam duration!!!  This can't be good!!! 

They suggest making sure that when I set the valve gap, I set each valve set where the cam is at the absolute lowest part of the rotation.  Isn't this going to be where TDC is according to the marks on the crank???

Does anyone have a method to check the piston to valve gap with everything assembled, is this even possible???  Could I have damaged stuff already in the engine??

[scondon]

They suggest making sure that when I set the valve gap, I set each valve set where the cam is at the absolute lowest part of the rotation.  Isn't this going to be where TDC is according to the marks on the crank???

Not necessarily, TDC refers to the piston travel and not cam position. Did you degree in the cam when you installed it or just bolt it in the stock cam sprocket? Any milling on the head? Reason I ask is that I have a megacycle cam with similar #'s in my 836 engine and even with .012" milled from the head I still have plenty of clearance. I did degree the cam to insure that valves were opening and closing at the correct point of piston travel.

   I would think that if your valves were hitting the piston for 1,000 miles you would have had engine failure by now but that is just a guess.

[MRieck]

I spoke with Web cams, and they think I'm actually having contact between my valves and the pistons because of the added cam duration!!!  This can't be good!!! 

They suggest making sure that when I set the valve gap, I set each valve set where the cam is at the absolute lowest part of the rotation.  Isn't this going to be where TDC is according to the marks on the crank???

Does anyone have a method to check the piston to valve gap with everything assembled, is this even possible???  Could I have damaged stuff already in the engine??

the wiseco's have large and deep valve pockets but you could have piston to valve issues. Dusterdude and Sean are correct in regard to having to time the cam. Falicon sells the necessary sprocket. I machined a ring out of a tappet cover (cut the inside out) to check valve to piston. You screw it in the tappet hole and pry down (carefully) on the rocker arm @ about 10 degrees before and after TDC. You can use a dial indicator off the retainer. I can take a pic but not until tomorrow evening.

[scondon]

I machined a ring out of a tappet cover (cut the inside out) to check valve to piston. You screw it in the tappet hole and pry down (carefully) on the rocker arm @ about 10 degrees before and after TDC. You can use a dial indicator off the retainer. I can take a pic but not until tomorrow evening.

   Frickin GENIUS!! :    I would not have thought of that.

[mutters]

Is the ticking or knocking ?, maybe pinging (sounds like a lot of little pings ! ), you might need to change timing to adjust for the new cam
just trying to cover all the bases

[hevykevy420]

Not necessarily, TDC refers to the piston travel and not cam position. Did you degree in the cam when you installed it or just bolt it in the stock cam sprocket? Any milling on the head? Reason I ask is that I have a megacycle cam with similar #'s in my 836 engine and even with .012" milled from the head I still have plenty of clearance. I did degree the cam to insure that valves were opening and closing at the correct point of piston travel.

   I would think that if your valves were hitting the piston for 1,000 miles you would have had engine failure by now but that is just a guess.

I did not degree the cam, I'm not sure how to do this.  There is no milling on the head.  I just bolted the new cam in and lined up the slot on the cam according to the manual I have.  I asked the Web person about this, and she said it was unecessary as long as I installed the cam properly. 

I also was thinking that if the valves were hitting, my engine would be toast, but its only started happening recently

[hevykevy420]

Is the ticking or knocking ?, maybe pinging (sounds like a lot of little pings ! ), you might need to change timing to adjust for the new cam
just trying to cover all the bases

How am I to know where the ideal timing to be set if I can't use the marks on the points plate assembly?  If I understand correctly, I'll have to pull the engine to install the adjustable cam gear which I really don't want to do unless I have to.

[MRieck]

I've seen engines run OK with exhaust valves kissing the reliefs. I've also seen pistons kiss the head and run OK.....in fact make a lot of power secondary to tight squish. I don't believe either is mechanically sound though. It sounds like your engine was just knocking from to much throttle at low RPM knocking. It happens to my FJ if it gets hot (oil temp about 280 or 290) and to much throttle (flatslides). It happens on my CB too though the oil never gets anywhere near that temp. As for cam timing.....every aftermarket cam(s) I've seen supplies LC's. It's a good idea to follow them

[hevykevy420]

I've seen engines run OK with exhaust valves kissing the reliefs. I've also seen pistons kiss the head and run OK.....in fact make a lot of power secondary to tight squish. I don't believe either is mechanically sound though. It sounds like your engine was just knocking from to much throttle at low RPM knocking. It happens to my FJ if it gets hot (oil temp about 280 or 290) and to much throttle (flatslides). It happens on my CB too though the oil never gets anywhere near that temp. As for cam timing.....every aftermarket cam(s) I've seen supplies LC's. It's a good idea to follow them

I thought too that it was just throttle position, but it would make the same sound when i would really rev up the engine, which is why I'm concerned.  I must say, when i took it out the next day, and it wasn't 100 degrees F, it sounded much better, and no ticking when cooler...

Sorry- stupid question, what is an LC???

[hevykevy420]

I checked the valves last night and it seemed like the valve gap was a bit too large.  Could this have caused my problem???

I have a new problem though, I accidentally dropped the feeler gauge tip inside the valve cover!!!  I had been using just the tip of the .004 gauge which snapped off a long time ago.  STUPID!!!!  It was still long enough to use, and was a bit more convenient as I could slip it in there, but now its somewhere inside the valve cover and i can't see it or get it out.  i tried to get it out with a magnet, but that didn't work.  should i just leave it in there and keep fingers crossed...getting frustrated...

[DammitDan]

No, you need to find it.  Leaving a piece of metal that thin inside there will block something somewhere deeper inside the engine.  Manipulate a magnet and get a grabber tool that you can bend around.

Anyways, I was going to say...  Is it possible his low compression reads are due to piston/valve contact?  He may still be getting some compression, but the seats are starting to wear away.  I would try a leakdown test on your compression.  Those number do seem awfully low (although I've never seen proper numbers for a big bore kit).

And yes, valves do easily get out of adjustment, especially if you go for extended high-temperature rides, and especially if it's been a while since you adjusted them.  I just rebuilt the top end on my bike on Saturday, tuned the tappets on Sunday (it sounded like smooth churned butter!) and went for a 300 mile ride.  Now the bike sounds like a bunch of crickets at idle.  It's normal to have to re-adjust several times after a rebuild.