Topic: afganistan

[cbjunkie]

it's because of your family that you should be over there.

[nickjtc]

1) attempt to identify the problem- why are they so hellbent on killing us all in the first place..  Well, that's complex now isn't it? 

How much of the problem was caused by US trade sanctions to countries in the middle east, leading to the deaths of thousands of starving people.... Wouldn't that be a sharp enough stick to prod a group of people into do some unspeakable acts in retaliation.....? Just a thought.

[putnaja1]

it's because of your family that you should be over there.

What exactly do you mean by that?

I'm hoping that we can have a political debate without people telling me to go to afganistan to save my family from me or some kinda #$%* like that.  What's the matter, don't like my point of view?  I told you my idea of what should be done, because you asked.  I notice that you won't post yours, same as in the occupations thread.  Always first to comment, but no real info.

[putnaja1]

1) attempt to identify the problem- why are they so hellbent on killing us all in the first place..  Well, that's complex now isn't it? 

How much of the problem was caused by US trade sanctions to countries in the middle east, leading to the deaths of thousands of starving people.... Wouldn't that be a sharp enough stick to prod a group of people into do some unspeakable acts in retaliation.....? Just a thought.

I got an answer for you:  NONE of the problem is from US sanctions..  Don't try to tell me we are responsible for them feeding their citizens.  How many of you guys are against the US from policing the world (I am too), yet you expect we should make sure everyone can eat?  Not to mention programs that we've started to help them feed their citizens like "Food for Oil", etc, that is abused by their own leaders..  Trying to keep people fed is a problem in itself, as we have seen first hand in Somalia in the early 90's. 

[racing33]

Trade sanctions or not, the act of flying planes into two buildings and killing thousands was and always will be an act of war. When we are attacked like that we had better do something about it. Previously we had an administration that did all that diplomatic candy assed stuff after the Cole, the embassy, and the WTC in 96. All that got us was another even more deadly attack on the WTC in 2001 that killed a whole lot of people in the US. 2nd choice is to make a stand and let it be know that we are not going to stand by and let these attacks happen while we search for some lame ass sanction while more stuff is blown to bits here in the US. Notice how no more of those type of attacks have happened in the US since the last one. The cowardly bastards who did this are to busy trying to keep a friggin missile from being delivered right up their asses.
Now do I believe that we will ever stop terrorism or these fanatical groups.....NO. We can make them understand that if they attack us or help to attack us that they will pay a heavy toll. Just like a schoolyard bully, the bully will continue to be a bully until he stood up to and has his ass kicked a couple of times.
Sorry fellas but my take is if you attack the USA you had better be expecting a resounding ass kicking for it. There are always differing points of view on a subject like this. Basically my view is if you give me a black eye then I in return will give you a few lumps of your own in return for the black eye.
I am sorry if my views do not make others happy, but I as well as you are entitled to my views and thoughts. Why is that? Because I live in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, and not in some friggin cave in the desert hating all the peoples who live in a better and more prosperous land.
Bruce

[gasguzler]

And, also we are a country that believes in freedom of religion, thought, press, and we believe in equality.  Also, we are considered powerful econimically and militarily.  They don't like these things- and so they have decided they must punish us. 

What a load of horse #$%*. My friend. "They hate your freedom!"

Np big words. Horse#$%*.

[putnaja1]

And, also we are a country that believes in freedom of religion, thought, press, and we believe in equality.  Also, we are considered powerful econimically and militarily.  They don't like these things- and so they have decided they must punish us. 

What a load of horse #$%*. My friend. "They hate your freedom!"

Np big words. Horse#$%*.

It's not horse#$%*- they don't have freedom of the press in those parts of the world.  Read up on how Iran is currently censoring university professors, to make sure they are all preaching the party wisdom.  They hate the west because they fear the west and fear freedom of expression, religion, etc.

[ElCheapo]

I just bumped into this thread so I did not get to read all of the posts. And like a typical big mouth a started to type.

Mass force just not work. To us here it sounds pretty cut and clear. But it is not once your are in country. This is more like a "selective" ass kicking. This is very hard to do. This is not like war with the Spartans or Romans where the only way to survive relentless forces was to surrender. Even then you may have been killed for any given reason.

Some examples:

Vietnam -

This was a mess on so many levels. I have friends who were there when Saigon fell and they got the orders to run like hell. So I have heard lots of stories of "Farmers" popping up with a weapon and start bashing a foot patrol killing many soldiers before there could be a response. Or Kids walking into a group of Marines supposedly looking for candy as some Marines would share this from time to time only to find out the little bugger has a grenade with no pin and boom half your patrol is gone or severely wounded.

Somalia: USMC
Another crazy attempt at selective ass kicking while attempting to evacuate the US Embassy. Just did not work. See the movie "Rules of Engagement" to get a tiny peek into the environment these guys had to deal with. Like Nam, everyone was a target and noone was a target.

Mogadishu: US Army
This one I am sure we do not need to get into. Another failed attempt at selective ass kicking. These just not work.

There are Hundreds and hundreds of examples like this. I can tell you as a combat soldier that mass force does not work. Not unless you throw away the rules of engagement and just shoot everything that moves including children. Last I checked this was called genocide and was the very reason we have gone after one dictator after another.

Seeing that the world is run by greed alone and love like some would like to think. I call to training in how governments are overthrown and how to do it. Yes they taught us this #$%*.

1. Create global community with several nations that surround a given adversary. (we have done this and had it done to us)
2. Stop importing or having trade of anything from any country that affiliates with them. (we have done this and had it done to us)
3. Close their borders and severly limit any traffic across the border. (we have done this and had it done to us)
4. Create appropiate taxation of imported items to protect local community and the local work force. (we have done this and had it done to us)

Funny it seems that we are primed to get our asses handed to us here in the states. The only way to get them to change policy and force thier hand is to force them to do everything "in-house" so to speak. But you see greed is like water, it will get in no matter what. You see we handed them our balls as a world long ago with dependence on middle east oil.

Just think of what the world has to offer if they would only Organize.

Africa= Biggest flawless freaking diamonds in the world.
Middle East= Oil, etc

Anyway, look at Japans economy...... They organized or should I say re-organized. They now dominate the electronics market everywhere in the world. Wars did not kill them it made them stronger.

Maybe we should be minding our own biz here in the states. We spend billions a day on war that is BS and children in our own country go to bed hungry because a good 25-30% of the US in considered sub poverty level on thier incomes. We are so big and bad but this continues.

There is no war on Hunger ot Homelessness because no fat cats can get rich off it.

[Ratfink]

They hate the west for the same reasons the west hates them. We are different. Its human nauture. So instead of poking them in the eye with sharp sticks we should be minding our own business.

[ElCheapo]

I think they hate us because we use far more than we contribute to the world. Maybe if we took the time to change things here our lives would be a whole lot better.

Regime change starts at home. 

And Rushoid, no it's not Bush Jr's fault it is the fault of of Sr. I know as I was in his damn military, and he bought jr the election.

One question, "Is our children learnin?"

[ChrisR]

Cheapo, I think you are right in saying that mass force does not work against guerrillas, terrorists or whatever you want to call them. It seems that the only way to defeat them is to play them at their own game - clandestine, psychological and subversive. You quote many examples of how up front force has not suceeded and I can think of only one situation offhand (I'm no military historian) in which a guerrilla force was defeated and that was in Malaya in the 1950's when Chinese backed firghters tried to take control of the country from the British. I believe they were comprehensively defeated eventually by Intelligence and subversion techniques. 'Brain over Brawn',' Know your enemy' type of stuff.
Also changing the political landscape can undermine terrorists as they often seem stuck to one point of view and one cause. The IRA in Ireland have been waging a war to rid Ireland of British control since the 1920's but the rise of the European Union with its control over member states and loss of indivdual states sovreignty (don't want to go into that now - sore point) has meant that supreme power is now being vested in the EU not individual counties and rug has been somewhat pulled out from under the IRA.
They have recognised this by starting disarmament talks etc.
Just some thoughts. Time to put junior to bed.

[nickjtc]

Wow. This is all very interesting stuff. Not that we are going to change anything with our discussions. Glad to see that everyone has made their point without getting too hot under the collar.

It's an interesting world we live in. Just watched the film 'Fail Safe' on the box. Horror brought to life, with decisions that no one should have to make.....if you haven't seen it, do. Just shows how paranoic we have been!

[Rushoid]

And Rushoid, no it's not Bush Jr's fault it is the fault of of Sr. I know as I was in his damn military, and he bought jr the election.

Oh, so being in Bush Sr.'s "damn" military makes you a political expert? Funny, I was in during Desert Storm too, but I don't feel like I'm qualified to run any country, least of all this one. I don't remember seeing any of us on the last ballot (of course, I don't know all of your real names ). As far as Sr. buying Jr.'s election, well I guess that could be. He's a powerful man. Of course, nobody knew who Senator Gore was so he probably didn't have any powerful connections. Right?   I'm sick of everything becoming a "conspiracy" just because things didn't go the way some people wanted it to. Hell, they probably both cheated one way or the other, Bush just did it better.

Yes, we have major problems within our own borders. We have starving people, and drug addicts, and so on. Unfortunately, we can't fix any problem with one broad stroke of the brush. The government gives some aid but how many people are dependent on welfare because they have no other choice, and how many are dependent because they're too damned lazy to get a job? How many kids are starving because mommy would rather spend her money on drugs than food and clothes for her 3 kids from 3 different fathers?

I believe our federal government's biggest jobs are: Protecting us from foreign invaders. Protecting our freedoms. It's job is not to protect us from ourselves. It seems that no matter what we do with our military, it will be unpopular. We can stand up for ourselves by taking the action over there, or we can stay here and try to protect our vast borders (I think of King Kong swatting at airplanes) and hoping nothing gets through. We hear complaints about the U.S. sticking their nose into other countries' business, but if we didn't we'd be criticized for being selfish and uncaring.

Our military is having a tough time over there right now. They don't know who's a good guy or who's bad. It's not an easy "kill 'em all" scenario and I doubt any of them want to anyway. It's amazing how so many people claim to know how to resolve the issue except for the people who have all the facts. I, for one, support every man and woman fighting for freedom - be it our own or someone else's. To simply pull out and let the natives do it themselves is not the answer. If they had the means, and the knowledge, I think they would have done it themselves.

I never should have read a political thread. I hope political differences don't alter the kinship we've grown into on this board. After all, wouldn't it suck for everone to think exactly alike?

Peace. Victory.

[Terry in Australia]

I never should have read a political thread. I hope political differences don't alter the kinship we've grown into on this board. After all, wouldn't it suck for everone to think exactly alike?
Peace. Victory.

Don't worry about it mate, the good thing about us being mostly old farts is we have short attention spans, and even shorter memories................. Ok, now time for my nap.

[Bob Wessner]

What were we talking about? 

[ElCheapo]

No conspiracies, they screw us in the open, most just do not care and some like it.

Lets not fix our country, lets go kick someones ass.

[cbjunkie]

i'm with you il heepo...

let's start with rocketbikestan

[ElCheapo]

i'm with you il heepo...

let's start with rocketbikestan

Lets all get stink drunk with power and kick thier ass, YEE HAAAWWW!!!!   

Give it to us or we will take it.  That is the American way.

We dont have democracy, how the hell will we give it to another country, and NSA and all the other paraniod ass hole organizations can kiss my ass.

[Rocking-M]

NSA, oh no cheapo we're on their list now, you mentioned them why didn't you just keep them out or it.
I just happened to watch "Enemy of the State" last night

[nickjtc]

Maybe it's time to just talk about the weather...........

[ElCheapo]

Weather is good. Atleast until it rains 

[seaweb11]

NSA, oh no cheapo we're on their list now, you mentioned them why didn't you just keep them out or it.
I just happened to watch "Enemy of the State" last night

No need to get paranoid all.....
I believe Cheapo was referring to the  "NEW singleoverheadcam ASSOCIATION" although I'm not clear why he's pissed at them

[cbjunkie]

f it...i hereby declare il heepo the ruler of Singloverhedcamistan!

(pssst...I want the ministry of the harem interior - wessner you give the oil ministry...)

[Noel]

I just want to take issue with the "They hate us for our freedom, way of life, religion, Britney Spears" etc. business. Bin Laden has repeatedly explained to us his rationale:

"The events that affected my soul in a direct way started in 1982 when America permitted the Israelis to invade Lebanon and the American Sixth Fleet helped them in that. This bombardment began and many were killed and injured and others were terrorised and displaced.

I couldn't forget those moving scenes, blood and severed limbs, women and children sprawled everywhere. Houses destroyed along with their occupants and high rises demolished over their residents, rockets raining down on our home without mercy. 

In those difficult moments many hard-to-describe ideas bubbled in my soul, but in the end they produced an intense feeling of rejection of tyranny, and gave birth to a strong resolve to punish the oppressors.

And as I looked at those demolished towers in Lebanon, it entered my mind that we should punish the oppressor in kind and that we should destroy towers in America in order that they taste some of what we tasted and so that they be deterred from killing our women and children." Source: http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/79C6AF22-98FB-4A1C-B21F-2BC36E87F61F.htm

I usually get called an "America hater" or somesuch for this statement, but the simple historical fact is that America is an aggressor nation and has been since the early 19th century. We enforce our will on the world through force, and I don't mean that as a value judgement -- there are worse things than spreading democracy at gunpoint -- but as historical fact. The list of American military interventions around the world -- and especially in the Middle East -- is long and not always defensible. Take a look here, if in doubt: http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html

Bin Laden says 9/11 was a response to American military intervention in the Middle East, and I see little reason to disbelieve him. The idea that they didn't attack us in retribution for our attacks on them, but did spend their own lives attacking us because they don't like blue jeans or pop music strikes me as kind of silly.

None of this, however, should be seen as a defense of terrorists. If Bin Laden & Co. magically appear in my study right now I'd gladly start adding holes, and with a light heart. But I do believe we need to think a bit further than just "Kill them". We need to take a hard and honest look at the motivations of terrorists and take reasonable steps to avoid being targeted again -- and that, IMO, means butting out of the Middle East. Let them go back to killing each other, and leaving civilized nations alone.

[Terry in Australia]

That's an excellent post Noel, although a little unfair using actual facts to support your point, and not just uninformed popular "lets get in there and kick some camel jockey ass" trailer park rhetoric, shame on you.

As much as I agree that it'd be great to walk away from the current mess in the middle east, the problem of course is that we created that situation when we (the coalition)  threw out the then legitimate governments of Afghanistan and Iraq, so regardless of how much they might hate us, it's our responsibility to establish new governments and replace the infrastructure that we destroyed, then we can walk away knowing that we left them better than we found them. Cheers, Terry.