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Offline FunJimmy

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Overcoming Modern fork swap issues!
« on: February 13, 2014, 08:39:21 AM »
The modern fork swap craze has become an almost epidemic amongst the cafe crowd (self included) but several are experiencing fitment issues.  I've read in several build threads lately (550 & 750) of wheel to header clearance issues as well as triple offset concerns. Modern fork swaps certainly aren't new and have been a very successful upgrade, but why are some having problems while others don't? Is the problem exacerbated by inverted forks vs conventional forks?

Modern Sportbikes have considerably steeper head angles which require short forks with minimal offset to get the geometry in the sweet spot. Classic old school bikes have relaxed head angles with more offset = longer forks, but does this EVER get factored in when selecting a donor front end?

Correct (optimized) chassis geometry is essential to a well handling and safe motorcycle. There are several good resources on the topic scattered around the internet. Do a search, read and digest this information before selecting an eBay special front end.


Here's a good start that I found.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Art & Science: Fun With Geometry
How your bike handles depends considerably on front-end geometry. Here's how to change it.
From the June, 2010 issue of Sport Rider
By Andrew Trevitt
Illustrators: Andrew Trevitt


Rake and trail are terms often used when discussing sportbike handling.
Manufacturers sometimes highly tout these numbers in their brochures, and we often refer to them in testing.
Trail especially affects how a bike feels, and can determine its stability, steering quickness, and in general, a large portion of the bike's handling characteristics.
Rake is defined as the angle of the steering head with respect to a line drawn perpendicular to the ground.
A smaller angle, or less rake, is sometimes referred to as being steeper, and production sportbikes are currently in the neighborhood of 23 degrees of rake.
Trail is the horizontal measurement from the front axle to the point at which a line drawn through the steering head intersects the ground.
Current sportbikes have 90-95mm of trail.




While the two dimensions are interrelated, trail is the number that mostly changes the steering feel of a motorcycle.
Trail gives a motorcycle stability because of the self-centering effect caused by the front wheel being behind (or trailing) the steering axis.
Too little trail, and this self-centering effect is decreased to the point of instability.
Too much trail, and the effect is so great that steering becomes heavy.
There is a lot more to trail than this (and for more detail, you can refer to the resources listed here), but these are the basics for the purposes of this discussion.
At first glance, most sportbikes appear to have a set rake and trail that cannot be changed, but that is not necessarily the case.
Given a motorcycle's basic dimensions, we can calculate trail as follows.

(equation 1)
Trail=RSinø-0/cosø
R=tire radius
0=triple-clamp offset
ø=rake



As an example, a bike with a front tire having a circumference of 1890mm, a 23-degree rake and 27mm of offset will have 98.5mm of trail.
Note that in the range of variables we are dealing with, using a tire with a smaller radius, increasing offset or decreasing rake can decrease trail.
On most stock sportbikes, you cannot change two of the three variables (tire diameter and offset) without resorting to modifications, but the third variable, rake, we can change slightly by raising or lowering the fork tubes in the triple clamps.
An expert-level roadracer can notice a change in the order of 1mm in trail, and working equation 1 backward, we can calculate the change in rake required as just less than 0.2 degrees.
Using an approximation based on the arc length from the rear axle to the steering head, we can further calculate that a fork-height change of just 4mm is enough to effect this angle change.




 
Many riders refer to fork height or rear-ride height change as "putting more (or less) weight on the front end," but we can calculate the change in weight bias brought about by this 4mm change.

A typical sportbike and rider combination weighing 600 pounds has approximately a 50/50 weight bias, with its center of gravity (CG) at a height 1_2 of its 1400mm wheelbase (figure 3). Front-end weight is calculated as:

Wf=Wt(L-x)/L
Wf=front-end weight
Wt=total weight
x=distance from front axle to CG
L=wheelbase

In this case, the bike's weight is evenly distributed, with 300 pounds on each wheel.
Raising the fork tubes in the triple clamp and changing rake by 0.2 degrees will move the CG forward by approximately 3.5mm (you can use trigonometry to calculate this), resulting in a front-end weight of 301.5 pounds.
This is practically insignificant compared to the change in trail resulting from the adjustment-you would have far more of an effect on weight bias by simply moving your body a little bit forward.
Raising or lowering the front end of your bike changes much more than just rake and trail, however.
It also changes the angle of the swingarm, which can play a big part in handling, especially on more powerful bikes.
We will cover more rear-end geometry in a later issue, but you should know that adjustments in trail are by far the most apparent change a rider will feel when raising/lowering the bike's front end.

Tire diameter is one of the other variables affecting geometry, and we can calculate the change in trail resulting in a switch between two brands of tires.
In our last tire test ("DOT Race Tire Test," Feb. '03), the tallest front tire was the Michelin Pilot Race 2, at 1910mm in circumference.
The smallest tire was the Metzeler Rennsport/Pirelli Supercorsa, at 1878mm.
We always measure tire circumference and change ride heights to make the overall chassis attitude (and rake) the same (see Ask the Geek, Feb. '02), and in this case, the fork tube height would need to be changed by 5mm just to level the chassis.

Even taking that into account, however, the change in trail due only to the change in tire size is 2mm.
Add in the different tire's profile (that changes trail at various lean angles), and you can see why adjusting only to keep the bike's attitude the same when changing tire brands is sometimes not enough.



The last way we can adjust trail is by changing the triple-clamp offset, and you will see that racebikes often have this adjustment.
In this case, a 1mm change makes approximately the same change in trail (but opposite-more offset gives less trail, and vice versa) with very little effect on ride height and rake angle.


« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 10:35:26 AM by FunJimmy »
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Offline KayOne

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Re: Modern fork swap issues
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2014, 08:53:11 AM »
Wow! Great write up. Thanks for the effort you made researching and writing this post.
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Offline FunJimmy

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Re: Modern fork swap issues
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2014, 09:21:15 AM »
My simple, non-scientific survey suggests that Suzuki GSXR forks are the hands down favorite.  Popularity made even more so thanks to vendors that produce hubs specifically for this combination and the sheer volume of forks on eBay which drives purchase prices to near record lows, but not all GSXR front ends are the same.

Triple offset varies from 28mm to 32mm and fork length differs depending on model and year.



There's a lot of good information at: http://www.svrider.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2163049

There is no reason to use a 17" front wheel to get the correct fitment if you select appropriately.  Before settling on a specific frontend, ask the seller a few questions like fork (extended) length and triple offset if possible. 

Fork extenders are also available if a longer overall length is required to get it right and getting it right makes all the difference.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 09:28:00 AM by FunJimmy »
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Offline FunJimmy

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Re: Overcoming Modern fork swap issues!
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2014, 10:48:17 AM »
Here is a fork length comparison you might find interesting and helpful.
From left to right: 00 R1 - 05 R1 - 06/07 CBR1000RR - 04/05 CBR1000RR



Just because you've decided to use a GSXR, CBR of any other front fork doesn't mean you have to use the accompanying triple trees.  Consider mixing triples to get the best results for your specific project.  Ducati standard offset is 36mm as an example of one option that might work with correctly sized forks. Search the clip-on listings to get an idea of the various bikes that use a similar sized fork and ask the sellers to measure tube diameters at the top and bottom triple clamp.

These extra efforts will be rewarded with a (safe) performance upgrade that will surprise sportbike riders everywhere.   
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Offline Don R

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Re: Overcoming Modern fork swap issues!
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2014, 11:08:45 AM »
Very informative and possibly could be saved somewhere?
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Offline dave500

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Re: Overcoming Modern fork swap issues!
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2014, 12:05:15 PM »
yeah funjim has put a good effort into that,very clear and straight forward,tricks and tips section?

Offline 750K

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Re: Overcoming Modern fork swap issues!
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2014, 09:42:46 PM »
Awesom write up Jimmy, there's a lot of this going on over on kzr forum. Lots of gixer and zx front and rear end swaps happening with the old Zeds, with a couple members making custom triples with the proper offsets as well as machining of rear swing arms etc to fit the old z's and kz's
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Offline thirsty 1

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Re: Overcoming Modern fork swap issues!
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2014, 09:47:20 PM »
Good stuff ! Thanks for sharing.  :D
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Overcoming Modern fork swap issues!
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2014, 01:27:21 AM »
Quote
Just because you've decided to use a GSXR, CBR of any other front fork doesn't mean you have to use the accompanying triple trees.  Consider mixing triples to get the best results for your specific project.  Ducati standard offset is 36mm as an example of one option that might work with correctly sized forks. Search the clip-on listings to get an idea of the various bikes that use a similar sized fork and ask the sellers to measure tube diameters at the top and bottom triple clamp.

You are better off trying to get close to the stock offset Jim, CB750k is 60mm, 36 mm offset makes the trail change considerably {more trail,l slower heavier steering} while i haven't measured the trail exactly, I have a set of clamps on a 750 frame with 35mm offset i can measure. If doing this swap and you are really concerned with getting the handling right you should use triple clamps with as close to stock offset as possible and try and retain close to stock ride height, differing wheel heights also change the way the front will feel and how it performs. If i were considering mixing clamps i would be doing the homework to find ones that give trail numbers similar to the stock set up {unfortunately there are none, custom is the only option if you want it right}, small changes are ok, i would not consider a 36mm offset to be a small change at all....  This is a great article, I think it now needs some numbers to accompany it, like , what the trail numbers are with stock GSXR offset, with a stock sized front wheel, an 18 and a 17, all will measure slightly different due to the changes in front ride height, and things like how close does the wheel come to the pipes due to using smaller offsets, 25mm is very close to 1 inch and under full compression that will make a 19 inch wheel on a gsxr front end come very close to any aftermarket pipe on the market....  I see far too many conversions done for aesthetics rather than done properly, hopefully this thread can go a long way to helping people understand how and why motorcycle geometry works when set up properly.....  ;)
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Offline dave500

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Re: Overcoming Modern fork swap issues!
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2014, 01:49:55 AM »
ive never tinkered with altering angles as i dont fully understand it,i do know that the old rear shocks have to go and be sure your front end steering bearings are replaced with modern tapered type along with good condition front springs and whatever oil weight suits you,if your reading this you knew that #$%* anyway.

Offline bwaller

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Re: Overcoming Modern fork swap issues!
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2014, 05:09:15 AM »
Well done Jim bringing this info to light. The whole frame geometry topic is considered somewhat "witch doctory". I'll admit I didn't pay enough attention when I set up my race bike and it eventually cost me. A perfect example of what Jimmy is trying to do.  ::)

I know with the 550 wheelbase a change of 25mm (rear up or front down(18" wheel)) makes a 1 degree reduction in rake, significantly reducing trail. The longer 750 wheelbase will be slightly different, but the point has been made.

It seems the result of reduced steering head angle is probably understood. By Jim supplying this information trail can be better considered. The result of too little trail is potentially a full blown tank slapper. This can ruin your day...

Offline dave500

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Re: Overcoming Modern fork swap issues!
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2014, 05:29:11 AM »
i like mine as it is,play chase me anyone?

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Overcoming Modern fork swap issues!
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2014, 03:13:10 PM »
The result of too little trail is potentially a full blown tank slapper. This can ruin your day...

Not to mention too much trail will give you a bike that just likes going straight ahead, ruining your day either way.... ;D ;)
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If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.