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Offline 70CB750

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Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« on: February 18, 2014, 12:00:13 PM »
As I am moving slowly forward in uncharted territory, the time has come to set the camshaft on the F2 engine.

I can set it exactly as it was based on the witness marks, it would seem to be easy just to move it 5 degrees advance relatively to the original settings.

Comments?
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2014, 04:52:49 PM »
So I found TDC tonight and mocked it up just to see. I "scientifically" advanced the cam to the maximum the sprocket would let me file longer hole, set valve lash to 0.004" and turned it slowly around listening.

The missing cam chain tensioner scared the crap out of me, it was making very suspicious clicking noise. 

Question:  if you move a cam from stock position - advance or retard - where do you set valve lash?  See advanced camshaft will have already tension on #1 spring in TDC.

Or am I wrong? Please bear with me, I am trying to wrap my head around this.
Prokop
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Offline thirsty 1

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2014, 05:02:35 PM »
Your valve lash should still be set on the base circle of the cam. Set in the normal sequence.  The valve lash is for thermal growth of the valve stem after it gets to operating temp. In a perfect world, I'd say a half thousands oil film would be plenty for lube oil between the stem and rocker after the engine is at temp. This is the reason for a cold valve adjustment. 

I haven't degreed a cam so I'll be learning too.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 05:20:35 PM by thirsty 1 »
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2014, 05:56:48 PM »
My bad, I meant where as a degree.  Seems to me, that advanced cam cannot have the lash set in TDC.
Prokop
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Offline thirsty 1

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2014, 09:05:05 PM »
TDC Comp. is where to set the valves. Both rockers will be loose (valve closed on the base circle) and the plug will have lit making power. +-10 dgs on the cam shouldn't matter for setting valves. How do you know how far you advanced (deg's.)the cam gear?
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Offline thirsty 1

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2014, 09:08:24 PM »
OH you've met my wife, Quick and dirty advancing F cam. ;D
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Offline Don R

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2014, 09:38:33 PM »
 TDC is still safe, the lobe only goes part way around the circle. There are other ways to determine the base circle, research the IOEC method.
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2014, 01:18:20 AM »
It is work in progress, my understanding that is.

I dont know how far is set now, I will check it tonight if I have time.   Will not be far from 5 deg, the sprocket is the F with holes and it will not let you file too far.

And thanks for your input, gents  ;D
Prokop
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Offline TurboD

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2014, 01:07:39 PM »
I'm not sure what you end goal is? I would first degree it in to see what the start settings are. 

Offline 74750k4

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2014, 07:26:47 AM »
Does "scientifically" moved,  include the use of a degree wheel, and a positive TDC position?

Offline 70CB750

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2014, 07:43:16 AM »
It does now, I am just playing with it, trying to get a hands on experience and understanding.

Speaking of which, is there any advantage in camshaft mounted wheel?
Prokop
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Offline TurboD

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2014, 07:47:47 AM »
I'm confused. Normally when you degree a cam in, you are checking the relationship of the cam to the crankshaft on a completed engine.

Offline 74750k4

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2014, 09:01:17 AM »
Yes. Looks like a waste of time until it's assembled. Openings/closings/overlap center etc., are all based on degrees of crankshaft rotation, without that reference point, of true TDC, what can you really do?

Offline MRieck

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2014, 09:38:22 AM »
I'm confused. Normally when you degree a cam in, you are checking the relationship of the cam to the crankshaft on a completed engine.
That's my limited understanding as well. ;)
   I have bench shimmed heads but that is about it. I'd highly recommend setting cam timing with the actual lash you will be running.....none of this 0 lash....you want to see what you are getting as close to running conditions as possible (even though things are moving all over the place when running).
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2014, 09:51:53 AM »
Ok, I am confused, got it now.  ;D

Crappy picture of my setup:

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/20/4egy5a7y.jpg

« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 09:59:18 AM by 70CB750 »
Prokop
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Online dave500

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2014, 11:45:24 AM »
the degrees quoted in cam timing are crankshaft degrees,install the cam as per the stock marks and zero your wheel,now loosen your cam bolts and rotate the crank counterclockwise from the points side how ever many degrees you want the cam advanced,the cam sprocket will turn half as many degrees while you hold the cam still,lock your cam bolts,check for valve to piston clearance,its best done with some lift happening so you can see if the cam has moved any as youve adjusted it on your dial indicator.

you can assemble it as per marks then turn the crank clockwise with the indicator on any lobe,bring it up to say 50 thou,then do the counter clockwise reset and be sure the dial stays at 50 thou the whole time,now when you set your tappets do it with the crank timing retarded from TDC the amount of degrees you set it to,this will bring the base circles back.

adjusting the crank counter clockwise(from the points side) will advance the cam,the lobes will start work sooner and visa versa.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 12:14:40 PM by dave500 »

Offline Trad

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2014, 03:53:16 PM »
I am now really looking forward to degreeing the webcam for my 550. NOT!
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http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,130575.0.html

Offline 74750k4

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2014, 03:57:17 PM »
Sure you want a Webcam? There's another live thread going that says stock, unless you're making a drag bike motor.

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2014, 10:40:24 PM »
if your happy with it set to what ever it is,index the cam and sprocket together with neat sharp prick punch marks so you can reinstall it the same if you ever take it apart,or go the extra mile and have an engineering shop drill another pair of holes about 180 degrees away from the factory ones but say 5 or whatever crank degrees you want different from the tooth(i dont like slotted cam sprocket holes),have it stamped say +5 or what ever it is on the side that faces the points and factory cam marks,if you reverse the sprocket the cam will be retarded that amount!five crank degrees is only two point five camshaft degrees,takes some good accuracy to square it away,a lot of vehicle engines through the smog years had the same cam but the key way or timing marks were moved to retard or advance the cam,this is how myths started about early and late cams etc being better,it was only the timing,some makes even did alter the lobes,mix that with the wrong sprockets marked differently and you can see how guys have bad results with cam swaps?if you expect proper performance this is why you must degree your cam in automobile engines.

be sure to check your piston to valve clearance if you alter the cam timing,the valves come closest to the piston during overlap,you can crush plasticene in the engine and have a look,or using soft springs on the valves(you only have to set up one cylinder with valves and light springs,leave all the other valves out) rotate the engine to overlap,then measure how much further you can push the valves down by hand untill they foul the piston,both valves are open a little here,this is done so at a certain rpm some new fuel flushes the old burnt out,its called scavenging(degrees of overlap),mild cams have less,wild cams have more,wild cams dont idle well because of it.

thats trying to keep it quick and dirty 70CB750,dont you ever change your avatar,i dig it!
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 11:53:06 PM by dave500 »

Offline 70CB750

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2014, 03:54:34 AM »
Thank you, Dave, I have it now together just lightly oiled and without pucks for educational purposes.

I like the idea of marking it together, will probably do that once I establish where I am at.

To check for clearances - well I was not going to take the head off again, but I guess it is better to do it now, than get frustrated later.

I will back off all valves except the #1, reset lash for #1  at TDC and have a go at it again. 

Thanks!
Prokop
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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2014, 01:29:27 PM »
no worries,it pays to mock up engines if your changing pistons for domed or swapping cams etc,does the 750 cam sprocket have 34 teeth like the 500/550s?if so one tooth = 21.18 crank shaft degrees,360 divided by 34 = 10.59 cam degrees,it turns half as fast as the crank so x 2 = 21.18 crank degrees,dont even think in cam degrees.

Offline 70CB750

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2014, 04:58:14 AM »
Yes, 34 teeth on the sprockets.  Made the holes longer to time it 5 degrees in advance per Hondaman book to move the powerband to lower rpms.

It finally makes sense and works now, after I realized the opening movement is 0.04" and not 0.004" :)  - wish my tools were metric  ;D
Prokop
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2014, 03:19:12 PM »
Something is fishy, valves too long  maybe?  Anyway, with the head, cam and rockers in place, there is no clearance between the rocker arm and top of the valve even without the lash adjustment screw.

The valve is pushed in by the rocker arm, when there is no adjustment screw, is it normal?
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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2014, 05:28:33 PM »
yes its ok,the valve wont be opened as much though,so long as its not happening with the rocker on the cams base circle its ok,rotate that cylinder to TDC  compression,both rockers should be on the base circle and you should have miles of clearance at both valve tips now.

Offline 70CB750

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2014, 04:41:37 AM »
Thanks Dave, I took valve out and it measures the same as the old one.

Will do the trick with no springs and feel the valve reach, there are just too may questions I need to figure out - but I got time to do that.

Thanks again.
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2014, 11:16:55 AM »
Sure you want a Webcam? There's another live thread going that says stock, unless you're making a drag bike motor.
I have to say that is an exaggeration....plenty of bikes on the street with stronger cams that run very well. If all you want is torque put some compression in it and use the mildest cam (stock in general) and you will have instant torque but basically stock upper RPM power. For example...on a CB750...put a set of Wiseco 836 pistons and put in a CB750 Automatic cam. It should idle well and have good torque but nothing special on top.
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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2014, 11:23:26 AM »
You have to have some springs in there.  I did it with just the inner springs when I was searching for a good cam advance. 

You don't have to take the head off.  I'm doing my final assembly, and I am able to pry the intake valves to do final clearance check using a tire iron with both springs in there (HD from APE actually).

Something to note: If you had your head or deck milled, using the factory cam sprocket will now cause your cam timing to be delayed slightly (depending on how much you had milled off).

Here's a thread I started a while back when I was having some troubles:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=117206

Here (In the same thread) is where I finally got the hang of it:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=117206.msg1327897#msg1327897

I used 0.04" lift to determine "official" valve opening - I believe this is what Honda used, but some cam manufacturers use a different lift measurement.

Also, remember that advancing your cam to open 5 degrees earlier, is 5 degrees earlier on the crank... so the cam is only 2.5 degrees ahead from stock. (I think someone mentioned that earlier above).

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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2014, 04:04:00 AM »
Thank you, Chris.  It is a learning curve, I had two major "duh" moments:

- when I realized which way to move sprocket against camshaft to advance and which way to retard.

- that the opening starts at 0.04" and not at 0.004"  - that accounts for some big difference in numbers, let me tell you  ;D

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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2014, 06:21:49 PM »
I measured all valves, the intake opens at 1 and closes at 40, exhaust opens at 4 and closes at 35.

These are average values from cylinders 1 to 4 as close to original setup as I could get based on the wintesa mark on the cam sprocket.
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Offline Kickstart

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2014, 06:49:41 PM »
I measured all valves, the intake opens at 1 and closes at 40...
I assume that's 1 degree before or after TDC, and closed at 40 after BDC

That sounds about right for stock (I think) - at least that's what my F0 was.  I think the F3 was similar.  So it sounds like you've got it close to stock.

... exhaust opens at 4 and closes at 35. ...
That sounds like you swapped the open/closed numbers.. what is that in relation to After/Before TDC/BDC?
But if you got the intake set right then the exhaust is set correctly by default.
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2014, 02:59:25 AM »
Sure I did, lol.

No, just checking if somebody pays attention :)))

Thank you, Chris, now I will go for clearance and advance. Will be able to run the hed tightening sequence in my sleep pretty soon. But this is one of the coolest things I ever worked on.

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Offline Kickstart

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2014, 03:28:18 PM »
Funny... I've got the torquing sequence memorized as well now.  :)
I lost count how many times I bolted the head on and then took it back off (fooling around with clay on the pistons and measuring clearances).

Did you leave the inner springs on for measuring the clearance?  I thought about buying some weaker springs at the hardware store - but ended up just using the inner springs.

I was able to get a clearance measurement with both springs installed during my final assembly (as mentioned above), but that was only for the intakes, as it was easier get the tire iron in there at a good angle.  I was too nervous to try and pry up the lifters for the exhaust with both springs in, as it seemed like it could crack the towers.  It worked fine with only one spring... just scared me too much to try it with both springs in there.

I found that my intake valves had the least amount of clearance around 5-8 degrees ATDC.  And the exhaust around 5 degrees BTDC - but your engine may be different.

Good luck!
- Chris
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2014, 03:20:45 AM »
I am sure your valves have the least amount of clearance at TDC, I verified it by experiment last night  ;D

Brain fart made me do few full cycles with playdoh on top of the piston and after taking it apart, I started fretting about literally 0 clearance on the valve.

Luckily at that moment I dropped and lost my 10mm socket and I decided to quit - makes no sense to work on CB750 head without 10mm socket.

The full truth and related self evaluation hit me by 3AM, I will try again, this time the leverage method from the top. 

Unless I will be building wind tunnel for my oldest - high school science project.
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Offline Kickstart

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2014, 04:40:54 PM »
I've lost countless minutes (well, probably hours), looking for the 10mm socket I keep on misplacing.

That's interesting that your least amount of clearance is at TDC.  I measured mine at a lot of different degrees to determine the exact spot with the least amount of clearance.  It was between 5-8 degrees ATDC for the intake (depending on how much I advanced the cam), and pretty consistently at 5 degrees BTDC for the exhaust.  I guess that's not too far from TDC.

Hmm... I've got everything set-up right now... maybe I'll double check

- Chris
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2014, 06:31:00 PM »
Well of course it is at TDC, but that does not count, the valve is fully recessed in the valve seat - I guess my joke was not that transparent, sorry.  I meant to say I squished the clay/playdoh, because I pushed it through the compression cycle where valves and piston come closest but completely safe.

Made some progress, see my built.
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Offline Kickstart

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Re: Quick and dirty advancing F cam
« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2014, 07:54:53 PM »
Ahh... sorry I did miss that... I'm not the quickest :)

But, you should be able to cycle the crank a couple times and still get valve clearance impressions... at least I did that when I was fooling around with the clay.  Where the valve "sticks out" (or comes closest to the piston) should be a couple mm from the edge of the piston, so the valve will squish the clay more than the dome of the head/chamber at that spot.

I'll check out your thread.
- Chris
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