Author Topic: Camshafts...  (Read 5317 times)

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Offline stikman

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Camshafts...
« on: February 24, 2014, 05:04:52 PM »
I'm looking for a bit of help with choosing a cam for my 77 matic.  I'm putting in the ebay 836cc pistons with some chamber work, which should put it around stock compression.  I'm also doing some port work.  Carbs are '73 K's rebuilt/rejetted.  Pipes are stock 4-2 with all baffles removed, but I'll likely install something for a little back pressure.

I would like to have good low end power for stop light to stop light activity.  I will be doing some touring with the bike as well, but I'm not building it for that.  I figure a bit of gearing should set it up for the times I do take it on the highway.

So I'm seeking advice on camshaft profiles that will suit my needs.  I already have a CX-1 from Cycle X, but I'm not certain it will be right for this application.  I'm looking at ordering a custom camshaft from Web Cam.  Any help is appreciated.
1977 CB750A "High Horse": 836cc, mild porting, custom cam, K5 roundtops, v-stacks...
1973 CB750K D5 plunger frame chopper currently building..

Offline raymond10078

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Re: Camshafts...
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2014, 06:45:11 PM »
At the top of the Hondamatic page is this thread:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=117218.msg1326054#msg1326054

Quoting from that thread:

Quote
The 41 or 41A would be better, but the Dynoman 295 just flat works on mild modified Hondamatics.
1978 CB750A (upgrading very, very slowly)

Past bikes - Honda: SL350, CX650C, CB900C, CB1000C, CM450A; Kawasaki: several 1972 750 H2's; Suzuki: TC90J.

Bikes I want: CX650ED, a mid-sized japanese V-twin with ABS.

Offline stikman

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Re: Camshafts...
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2014, 11:54:14 PM »
The CX-1 is supposed to be equivalent to the #41.  Has anyone had any custom grinds done up for a similar application, or does everyone just refer back to the same information?
1977 CB750A "High Horse": 836cc, mild porting, custom cam, K5 roundtops, v-stacks...
1973 CB750K D5 plunger frame chopper currently building..

Offline raymond10078

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Re: Camshafts...
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2014, 05:14:00 AM »
For custom grind cams, you may have better luck posting your question in the SOHC/4 Bikes or the High Performance and Racing forums.
1978 CB750A (upgrading very, very slowly)

Past bikes - Honda: SL350, CX650C, CB900C, CB1000C, CM450A; Kawasaki: several 1972 750 H2's; Suzuki: TC90J.

Bikes I want: CX650ED, a mid-sized japanese V-twin with ABS.

Offline jweeks

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Re: Camshafts...
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2014, 10:32:45 PM »
Or some of us who hang out in the high performance area reads the stuff here as we compete with Hondamatics.

     Improving midrange torque is what you're seeking. Unless you really know the formulas, cam theories, and your exact motor specs including cylinder head airflow, you won't be able to make a noticeable improvement with a custom grind over an off the shelf cam. Web Cam doesn't have a Hondamatic knowledgeable salesperson to guide you to the "right" cam profile. I've talked with Web Cam in the past and had them make a "custom" Hondamatic cam based on the profile number that I requested. They gave me about 4 different part number profiles for me to chose from. Did my "custom" web cam grind make a lot more power than the commercial standard 295 grind? It made a little more top end, but the ET differences were minor. (It was worse) Could I have found a little more with cam timing changes? Possibly, but it wasn't worth my time. Use an adjustable cam sprocket, advance the cam to bring the powerband down. Only with a chassis dyno or passes on a dragstrip will you be able to tell the difference. Your butt won't know the difference.
     Torque increases make the bike quicker in the midrange of rpms which is where it will spend most of it's time. The two speed transmission limits the rate of acceleration. If you gear it for say 40 mph at 10,000 rpm in low gear, the 295 cam advanced about 5 degrees will be quicker than any other cam I know of. The bike will be very, very buzzy running around on the street. No, it will not be keeping up with most clutch modern 4 cylinder bikes you find. (If they know how to drive them)
     Two things that will make a noticeable improvement in acceleration: More compression and or more stroke. Neither comes cheap. Both have practical limits. The only other thing that can help you travel quicker is to reduce the overall weight. Stock wheels are very heavy by today's standards. Less wheel mass will give you quicker acceleration.
     Getting the fuel/air ratio correct across the powerband is a challenge with the carbs that you'll use. Some dyno time can really help smooth it out. If you put in a bigger main jet for the cc increase and power improvement, you may have a good top end. The idle circuit will be very rich. Yes, it can be corrected, but do you know just what the idle circuit needs for correcting the issue? Needles need to be in the correct slot for the midrange to be right. To get it exactly right, you may need modified or different needles.
     With a budget build like you're proposing, you won't know a 2 ft/lb torque improvement at 5 grand without a dyno or ET slip. I helped a member with an 836cc, 10.5 to 1 compression, well ported head with good valves and valve springs, and a 4 to 1 open exhaust. Dyna ignition. It started out with a -75 cam which is what the clutch bikes like. They used the adjustable cam sprocket to advance the cam when it was installed. Then they opened up the valve lash to make it act more like a smaller cam. We put the 295 cam in as the replacement, advanced it 5 degrees, and ran it down the track with stock valve lash for that grind. The 295 cam was over a half second quicker in the quarter mile vs the -75 one. That's on a 12 second Hondamatic. It was refined to 12.3's best in that combination. It runs high 7's in the 1/8th mile. Your bike may run middle 8's in the 1/8th mile if you get everything right. That's low 13's in the quarter mile.
     There's several videos of that bike mentioned above on you tube. The oldest video was it's first time out where it ran 13.2's. You can see and hear how sluggish it was in the lower rpms. (-75 cam). We got it into the high 12's with refinements. It ran 12.3's with the 295 cam swapped in. (no other changes) The mph fell off from about 116 to 112, yet the bike got a lot quicker. That's midrange improvement at the expense of some top end power.
     If you want stoplight to stoplight automatic acceleration, you don't want a 4 cylinder Hondamatic. Find a Suzukimatic twin, put in bigger pistons, tune it right, and you'll beat a 4 cylinder Hondamatic to 40 mph every time. You're starting with a much lighter bike with a longer stroke. It could run middle 8's all day long in the 1/8th mile at around 81-82 mph. The Hondamatic may catch it at the end of the 1/8th mile, but the Suzukimatic will be ahead for most of the track.
     Having raced Hondamatics for over 25 years, I don't refer back to someone else's postings. The quote that kandrtech used was mine from last year. I've also raced Hondamatic twins and own a Suzukimatic twin.
     Here's the Hondamatic 4 cylinder performance bible:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=61876.0  Most people on here know Sam Green and his bike.
The most viewed topic on the high performance forum.(over 149k views) Lots of junk in there, but some very good information found within. I recommend reading it in small chunks to prevent unintended sleep. ;)
     Good luck with your build. Come over to the high performance forum if you want other opinions.

Offline stikman

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Re: Camshafts...
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2014, 01:49:44 AM »
Cheers, jweeks.  Lots of good advice.

Yeah, I've been following the progress on Sam's bike and I've seen the videos.

As much as I love a big cam, I was hoping not to go too extreme with this engine as it will need to be reliable for long trips.

Is it pretty much a requirement to use heavy duty valve springs and do some modifying work to the valve cover when using the DP295?  Also, looking at the cam card for the 295, are those lift numbers seriously at the cam (382/357) or is that multiplied by the rocker ratio?
1977 CB750A "High Horse": 836cc, mild porting, custom cam, K5 roundtops, v-stacks...
1973 CB750K D5 plunger frame chopper currently building..

Offline jweeks

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Re: Camshafts...
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2014, 05:08:07 PM »
Here's Mike R's specs and comments:
"Specs: 295
Total Duration:
306° in   296° EX
Lobe Centers:
105°
Lift:
.390" IN   .360" EX
Lash:
.004" IN    .006" EX

the DP cam is ground by Web which means the lift/duration #'s are meaningless (aren't even close to advertised) and the cam is relatively mild."

total lift is at the valve.

Better valve springs are never a bad investment if you plan on revving the motor above stock rpms. I like the new beehive ones (personal preference)

No valve cover mods needed. An adjustable cam gear does help to correctly dial in the cam. I like a 5 degree advance on the DP295 from the spec card. That helps bring down the power band a little more to where we use it most.

Do me a favor and report on your results. This is typical for a modified street Hondamatic. Readers want to know if the parts do work together... ;)



Offline stikman

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Re: Camshafts...
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2014, 08:11:54 AM »
Again, jweeks, great info.  Cheers for that!  Finally starting to get somewhere.

I will be happy to report my results when I get them.

I sent my stock '77 CB750A cam to Webcam and they threw it on their cam doctor.  I was really curious to know the specs on it as I have had zero success in finding that info anywhere else.  Here's the specs (note, engine had about 45,000kms on it):

Intake:

Lift @ the cam: 0.287

Duration:
@ 0.010" - 267*
@ 0.020" - 238*
@ 0.040" - 224*
@ 0.050" - 219*
@ 0.080" - 201*
@ 0.100" - 192*
@ 0.150" - 161*
@ 0.200" - 126*
@ 0.250" - 82*

Ramp: 46

Exhaust:

Lift @ the cam: 0.269

Duration:
@ 0.010" - 278*
@ 0.020" - 249*
@ 0.040" - 234*
@ 0.050" - 228*
@ 0.080" - 208*
@ 0.100" - 196*
@ 0.150" - 162*
@ 0.200" - 124*
@ 0.250" - 64*

Ramp: 53


As expected, much smaller than a stock CB750K.  Nice to finally have some numbers for a Hondamatic cam.
1977 CB750A "High Horse": 836cc, mild porting, custom cam, K5 roundtops, v-stacks...
1973 CB750K D5 plunger frame chopper currently building..

Offline stikman

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Re: Camshafts...
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2014, 08:49:53 AM »
For the record, the cams offered by Cycle X are quite literally the same cams as offered by Webcam.  I was never sure (until I spoke to a Webcam rep) what it meant on Cycle X's site where it says "Equivalent to...".  The few numbers Cycle X provides there are lift at the valve and duration at 0.020", as per Webcam's lobe specs.

It's to be expected that the advertised numbers for any of these cams is not exact.  That's been an ongoing issue with every cam company since time immemorial.  Just par for the course really.  The challenge is trying to decipher the numbers, which I'm neck deep into atm.

That's very helpful info about the 295.  On Dynoman's cam card it specifically says the lift is at the cam (incorrect?), which multiplied to account for rockers would make it just massive.  But if it's lift is at the valve, extracting the rockers from the equation actually puts the lift around 0.345" Intake, 0.322" Exhaust (give or take with rocker variables).  Certainly not an extreme cam.

Do you mind me asking which cam profiles and lobe centers you went with on that custom cam, jweeks?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 05:38:20 PM by stikman »
1977 CB750A "High Horse": 836cc, mild porting, custom cam, K5 roundtops, v-stacks...
1973 CB750K D5 plunger frame chopper currently building..

Offline jweeks

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Re: Camshafts...
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2014, 09:24:56 AM »
Too long ago, sorry. It was a Web Cam #88 grind. Better top end than the 295 and a very good upper midrange. When you have the cc's, it makes very good 6-11k powerband. You'd need a thousand cc's plus to take advantage of it. I've already gone 124+ mph in the quarter with that cam on a 625 lb bike and rider. Great idle and very smooth powerband. A big lift (compaired to stock) and moderate duration with a good head and it's an impressive ride. There are dyno charts on Sam's 915 cc Hondamatic in his topic on the high performance section using the 295. The throttle response is so good that you just want more gears to enjoy it. Good luck with your build.

                                                         Jon Weeks

Offline stikman

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Re: Camshafts...
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2014, 05:30:02 PM »
So I asked Buzz @ Dynoman Performance about the DP 295.  He was light on info, but what he did tell me was this:

"The numbers are taken at the cam. With the rocker arm ratio they will be close to 420 in and 389 EX."

So the cam card says 382 intake and 357 exhaust lift at the cam, and he's multiplying by the rocker ratio to get 420/389 lift at the valve.  That does not seem like a mild cam to me at all.  It would make sense, if this really is the case, that Sam's bike would make more power with the 295 over the 125-75 because, at the very least, the lift is simply more on the 295.

Jon, you said that the total lift that Mike gave for specs was at the valve.  Buzz is contradicting that.  What's the truth of the matter here?

Cheers!
1977 CB750A "High Horse": 836cc, mild porting, custom cam, K5 roundtops, v-stacks...
1973 CB750K D5 plunger frame chopper currently building..

Offline jweeks

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Re: Camshafts...
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2014, 11:21:10 AM »
working on it. Have a 295 cam that I'm measuring.

Offline stikman

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Re: Camshafts...
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2014, 03:14:10 PM »
Right on.  Looking forward to that.  Cheers!
1977 CB750A "High Horse": 836cc, mild porting, custom cam, K5 roundtops, v-stacks...
1973 CB750K D5 plunger frame chopper currently building..

Offline jweeks

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Re: Camshafts...
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2014, 05:20:40 PM »
Just using basic verniers. DP295 camshaft brand new unused.

Intake - .373" lift

Exhaust - .355" lift

I hope that helps  ;)

Offline stikman

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Re: Camshafts...
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2014, 02:09:00 PM »
Thanks Jon.  Looks like the lift numbers on the DP 295 cam card are indeed at the cam then.
1977 CB750A "High Horse": 836cc, mild porting, custom cam, K5 roundtops, v-stacks...
1973 CB750K D5 plunger frame chopper currently building..

Offline MRieck

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Re: Camshafts...
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2014, 02:03:12 PM »
Thanks Jon.  Looks like the lift numbers on the DP 295 cam card are indeed at the cam then.
So I borrowed the tools needed to get my cam degreed in, and thanks to this forum I got things figured out. However, I am confused with the numbers that I got and was hoping to get some clarification of expected tolerances with a new Hi-Po cam. I documented everything in my K4 build thread (starts at post #417) but will give some cliff notes here. I am hoping you guys with lots of aftermarket cam experience will chime in to help me out.


I have read that aftermarket cam specs will vary a bit from the advertised specs. Even Megacycle states in their catalog to split any differences to come within 2-3 degrees of specifications. I will type out the printed specifications of my cam and show you what I came up with.


Is this considered to be within acceptable tolerances?



Megacycle 125-60 cam


advertised specifications:                                                  My specifications:
INTAKE:
lift = .375"                                                                         lift= .380"
open= 25 btc                                                                     open= 22 btc                                                                   
close= 52 abc                                                                    close= 55 abc
lobe center 103.5 deg                                                        lobe center= 106.5 deg


EXHAUST:
lift = .354"                                                                         lift = .347"
open = 50 bbc                                                                    open = 51 bbc
close = 23 atc                                                                    close = 19 atc
lobe center = 103.5 deg                                                     lobe center = 106 deg

This post by another member using a Megacycle 125-60 says it all. Actual lift was taken at the retainer. .420 (or .410 with lash incorporated) lift at the intake valve with that 295 cam is not going to happen....that is a lot of lift! My Megacycle cam has advertised intake lift of .407 but came up .398 with the lash. Web...Megacycle....Yosh...it doesn't matter.
 I am always more concerned with how far the valve is actually be pushed down which is measured at the retainer.
 The 295 cam produces better torque because it is milder than the 125-75....both in lift and duration. The valves close earlier and torque increases.
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline stikman

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Re: Camshafts...
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2014, 12:27:15 AM »
Not that I'm throwing my lot in with the 'guys with lots of aftermarket cam experience'  ;D , but I'd say those lobe centers are not within acceptable tolerances.

As for the rest of the numbers being taken at the valve spring retainer, that means the numbers will vary depending on rocker arms and valves... ie: manufacturing tolerances and/or wear and tear.

Megacycle's advertised lift numbers are at the valve.  I personally find this useless for anything other than giving the consumer a very rough idea of what to expect when they toss it in and run it as is.  For real apples to apples comparison, measurements at the cam are most accurate, imo.  From there, particular usage in a specific engine with it's particular rockers will produce measurements at the valve that are specific to that engine; albeit likely within a general range.

Seeing as there are a fairly small total number of camshafts available for our engines, I would really like to see a thread that comprises real life at the cam measurements made by members for each camshaft available.  Of course, even then there will be an amount of 'human error'.  But it would clear the fog that lingers over the world of sohc cb750 camshafts in a big way.

Megacycle doesn't advertise the 125-75, but based on their advertised specs for the 125-70, the 295 seems to have higher lift.

Mike, what did you mean when you said 420 (410) lift at the valve is not going to happen with the 295?  Do you think the number is embellished/wrong in some way or physically impossible within the bounds of the rockers and towers?

Really nice to see some interchange on this subject.  And if anyone else has any more specs for any of the aftermarket cams, please feel free to post up the info.  It's very helpful.  Cheers fellahs.
1977 CB750A "High Horse": 836cc, mild porting, custom cam, K5 roundtops, v-stacks...
1973 CB750K D5 plunger frame chopper currently building..

Offline stikman

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Re: Camshafts...
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2014, 11:57:36 PM »
Got my custom cam installed and degreed in that I had WebCam grind for me off my stock '77 CB750A core and I pulled the specs off it.  Should be an interesting cam as it uses the stock lobe sep of the matic cam and has no overlap at 0.050" lift.  I'll share some practical real world results when I have them, hopefully before the snow flies.
1977 CB750A "High Horse": 836cc, mild porting, custom cam, K5 roundtops, v-stacks...
1973 CB750K D5 plunger frame chopper currently building..