Topic: Working Toward First Start 78 CB550, Started! - Videos Added

[jason405]

Hey Guys,

so I am in the early stages of my first bike project. It's a 1978 CB550K and at this point I am working toward firing it up for the first time.  It has sat for 3 years since it was last ran.

I want to use this thread for help with the random things I need to do to it before trying to start it for the first time.  Once I get it running and have faith that I can build a nice bike out of it, I will close this thread and start an official project thread.

The first thing I did was a full carb rebuild and I am finishing that up right now.  My dedicated thread on the PD46C carb rebuild can be found here: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=133559.0

The next thing that needs to be addressed before trying to fire it up is the tank.  It had a nice rust line about 1.5 inches up from the bottom where gas/water has obviously been sitting for a couple years. I noticed small bubbling spots in the paint when I first got it, and knowing I was going to repaint the tank anyway, I scratched at those posts and sure enough, out comes nasty 3 year old gassy sludge. 

So I have stripped the tank and identified several more small holes. I plan on putting a liner in it, but decided I wanted to fix it the best I could so I took it to a radiator shop where they soldered the holes shut, streamed out the inside, and pressure tested it to 10psi with no leaks. 


At this point I am ready to pick a liner to put in it. I know there could be other weak areas in the tank so I would like to use a liner that not only seals, but also is known for being able to fill small holes if there happens to be any more show up, and help reinforce the walls of the tank. That is where I would love to here what you have to say.

I have narrowed it down to these three:

1. KBS Tank Sealer Kit http://www.kbs-coatings.com/cycle-tank-sealer-kit.html  I like the price and I like that it comes with other cleaners to help get the best adhesion. I have heard nothing but good about this stuff.

2. Caswell Epoxy Liner http://www.amazon.com/Caswell-Epoxy-Tank-Sealer-Motorcycle/dp/B001PLM5TC  Seems to be known for being able to seal fairly large holes and can be mixed with pigment to be able to see any missed spots in the tank.

3. POR-15 Liner http://www.amazon.com/POR-15-Cycle-Tank-Repair-Kit/dp/B000H9K4JQ  Seems best for adhering to tanks in the worst shape, but seems hit or miss on durability.

I am really leaning toward the KBS kit, but I am not completely convinced it will seal AND add a layer of physical protection around weaker areas like the other 2-parts might.


I would love to here your thoughts on using these liners in my situation to help me figure out which one to order.  I understand, in any case, the tank MUST be completely dry.


Sorry for the long post.  I will post pics of the tank asap.  Once I get tank sealed, I will be really close to being able to fire it up I think, but one thing at a time

Thanks!
Jason

[jason405]

Got my tank back from the radiator shop.

Ok, after doing some more reading, I think I have decided on POR-15.  Going to order the kit and hopefully knock it out next weekend.

Here are some pics of the tank. There is bondo and skim coat left bind that I am going to leave and I will have to add more bondo where the radiator gut brazed some holes shut.

[rb550four]

Cool. Are you going to remove the rest of the rust from the tank before sealing it? There is a bunch of ways/products to do that.
here 's just one thread, I'm sure there is more on the subject in other threads on the search bar
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=91545.0
  if interested.
What's the rest of the machine look like?

[jason405]

I'll post some full body pics soon!

The radiator guy steamed out most of it. The rest I was just planning on attacking with the prep & ready that comes with the POR-15 kit.

I will also be on the hunt for a new petcock. Not 100% sure, but I think the one that was on it is done. Any good ways to test it besides just on the tank?


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[bjatwood]

POR-15 is good stuff! You made the right choice with it. Just make sure you follow the directions to a "T".

[jason405]

POR-15 is good stuff! You made the right choice with it. Just make sure you follow the directions to a "T".

Great! planning on doing just that!

Here is the bike when I got it. It was last ridden in 2010. Bike is pretty clean but the motor is pretty dirty. Oil/dirt mix on the outside. Going to hit with foaming degreaser, then pressure wash it. And that exhaust has got to go. I dont know to what but I'm not loving the current setup. Seat is stock and in PERFECT shape! Not planning on keeping it though so it will be up for grabs at some point.  Carbs off for rebuild, and some electrical taken down.  Tank was painted somewhere along the way. Come to find out, that was most likely due to some denting given all the bondo I found under the "custom" paint job lol. 

Planning on building my own wiring harness. Thought is to keep electrical minimal. All LED lights besides an HID up front. 

I'm trying to spend as little money and do as little work as necessary before getting her to run.  That way I'll know I have a good base to work off of.   

[jason405]

Alright so the carbs are done!

Next is sealing the tank and engine prep.   While waiting on the sealer kit to arrive, I would like to get started prepping the motor. 

My thought was to drain oil and drop the pan and clean it out.  Then replace the filter and fill with fresh oil. I have new spark plugs to be installed and I figured I would check the valve clearances.

Does this sound sufficient before attempting a first start in 3 years?  Can anyone offer a cleat course of action that would be better?

Thanks!
Jason

[calj737]

Dropping the pan and an oil swap is prudent. Before you pop in new plugs, shoot some penetrating lube into the cylinders and make sure the cylinders are nice and wet. This too may aide in freeing up anything that has gotten "sticky" in there. if the motors spins freely, add plugs and fuel to fire.

A little prevention can save you heaps later. With the plugs out, motor should spin more easily as an added benefit.

[dagersh]

Jason,

Run through a complete tune up as per the Manual.  Definitely check valve clearances, timing and cam chain tension.  After you change out the oil, be sure you have good flow from the oil pump, you can do this by spinning the starter motor with the kill switch off and checking for flow through the tappet covers.  It also primes the system, so it is oiled up when ready to start.

Gersh

[jason405]

Thanks guys!  It kicks through just fine right now but a couple drop of marvel mystery oil through the spark plug holes would be a good idea still right?

Gersh,  I will do the tune up per the manual for sure, and will remove the outer tappet covers to ensure oil is making it up top just before attempting to start the first time.

Thanks for the info guys! Will report back once I am ready to start to double check everything.


Jason

[paul_D]

If you are dropping the oil pan, check that the primary chain is still tight and not slapping the oil gallery. Too much slack from the primary will chew through the oil gallery and you'll loose all oil pressure and be looking for a new bottom case.

[jason405]

Thanks Paul! Is there some speck for the tension of that chain? I haven't look in the manual yet. Just curious if you knew off the top of your head?

Thanks!
Jason


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[paul_D]

I couldnt find any spec's but I have some pictures.. I think its clear which is the new and which is the old primary chain.  You can see the damage the old one did to my case.

The old chain slipped off easily, the new chain was snug.

If you do decide to change the chain, just know you are in for a huge overhaul tearing the whole engine apart.  But if the inside doesnt look/feel worn like my image, you should be fine.

[paul_D]

BTW, that image is a top down view, you would have a bottom up view going through the oil pan so it would be by feel. the primary chain is at the front of the case linking the crank to the transmission.

[jason405]

Absolutely. I have ZERO desire to crack the cases.

Let's hope it looks acceptable!


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[paul_D]

Should be fine unless the bike is very high mileage or was raced where you get a lot of hard accel/decel and clutch kick that stresses the primary.  Dont worry, just worth looking at.

[jason405]

Cool. Well I appreciate the head up! I'll definitely give it a look!

Thanks again!


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[AintNoEasyWay]

Exciting. Gotta hear how all this turns out!

[jason405]

Alright. Road block.

So before changing the oil, I went to give the bike the first round of degrease/spray down, so I removed the gauges and wiring harness.  Sprayed it down, then dried it off and removed the exhaust. Then pulled the drain plug, and once that slowed, went to pull the pan.  I'm working my way around the oil pan bolts when I notice one is missing. So I think ok, no big deal, I'll keep going. 

So I drop the pan to find the the whole bolt wasn't missing, just half.   Also, there was quite a bit of liquid gasket that had been used AND a homemade paper gasket. Complete with a real estate add and everything! So that has me asking two questions:

1. Why was the liquid gasket and paper gasket used when there is a rubber gasket that makes that seal (which was also in place! And I have a new one.)?
2. How am I going to get that bolt out since it is sheared off flush with the crank case?!


I did some reading on getting the bolt out. What I gathered is avoid the EZ-Out at all cost. Try to drill it out with a left handed drill bit. Any other thoughts here, or suggestions of how to go about it?












Also some little blue silicone type bits in the bottom of the pan. Don't know what that's about but no metal, and the screen is nice and clean.

[calj737]

A couple of options for removing that bolt: if you have access, weld a little stud to it, then use that to turn the bolt out. Generally speaking, sheared bolts aren't that "stuck" in the block, but some ham-fisted PO over tightened it.

If no welder, then you can apply heat to it (often loosens any corrosion) and attempt to left hand drill it out. If not, I have had success drilling the center of the stud with a quality bit, cutting fluid, and keeping centered on the shaft. This essentially vibrates the bolt loose, and then allows a left hand bit to spin it out quite easily. Or, you can use the hole you drilled, to perhaps get a small needle nosed plier inside and turn out the bolt.

Last resort: EDM at a machine shop.

Blue stuff in oil pan looks like sealant used elsewhere in valve train or inside crank case. A pretty good indication that your PO wasn't very informed not he Do's-Dont's so often found on this Forum by the really experienced builders that keep the rest of us away from mistakes.

[jason405]

Thank Calj.

Can I use a torch to heat it since it is right next to the exposed oil cavity in the crank case that has still got oil all over it?

Also I guess I will just have to lay the bike down to be able to drill at it with a reverse bit?

Thanks!

[calj737]

Use some practical care when heating, and you'll be fine. Yup, lay bike down on its side cover (protection for the bike obviously) and drill carefully. Take your time, use lots of fluid, and be sure you stay centered.

I'd use a bit equal to about 50% of the diameter of the sheared shank.

[jason405]

Got it. So I got a bolt extractor set and tap handle. The small size I believe will fit and needs a 7/64 hole.

My plan is to hear from the outside and use a 7/64 left hand bit first to see if that will get it out. If not I'll have my hole ready to try the bolt extractor.

Sound good?




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[calj737]

Sounds like a great plan. You'll be fine- these bolts aren't generally a major problem to get unstuck.

[jason405]

SUCCESS!!!!

So we laid the bike over on its side,  and I got a punch on the sheared bolt right in the center. 

I decided I would start with the 1/16" in left handed bit to make a pilot hole so the 7/64 bit would have a really positive area to follow.  The saw the bolt move with the first bump of the drill and smiled really big LOL! I guess it wasn't stuck much at all. 

Ended up backing right out. That is up there with the best $10 I have ever spent at Harbor Freight haha!

Alright.  Got the gasket surfaces clean and I am going to put the pan back on with just the rubber o ring right? (I have a new one) No liquid or paper gasket needed correct? These bolts had some anti seize on them so should I go ahead and put them back on with some fresh anti seize on them?

Primary chain looked fine to me.

Once I get the pan back on, I am going to try to get as much grime off the motor as I can. Maybe employ the soda blaster for some of that. 

I got the POR15 tank sealer in so I will be starting that whole mess soon.  I am going to need a new petcock.  This bike used the 5/8" single fuel line 90 degrees out type petcock.  Anyone know of a solid replacement?

Thanks again for the help getting the bolt out!!!
Jason

[bjatwood]

Good work Jason! Last spring I was putting my Goldwing back together to take a spin on it from the winter maintenance I had done. And the last seat bolt I sheared it off putting it in. The bolts for the seats on the Wing are about 5 inches long and quite frankly a #$%* to get started correctly. So I take the seat off and basically do the same thing you just did but the bolt wouldn't come out! So I gradually increase the drill bit size to the point the bolt was just shavings. Tapped it out with the original size tap and installed hardened seat bolt's with quite a bit of anti-seize on the threads. Glad yours came out easily for you. I've yet to drop my oil pan on my K3 but am thinking this year might be the year. 

[jason405]

Thanks Brian!

I guess I am going to order this petcock unless there are any objections?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/170788799300?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648
Seems like he has sold a bunch.  Mine is totally shot.

I am waiting for a day where I know I will have the time and some warmer weather to tackle sealing the tank.  Thinking about using prep and etch from HD before doing the formal sealing process.  Just want to get as much rust out as I can before beginning the sealing process.

In the mean time, I am going to do some soda blastig on the motor to clean some stuff up.  It really needs to be pulled and put on a stand to be cleaned properly, but I will wait to do that until after we hear it run

[jason405]

Alright guys, a little update.

I got the POR-15 kit in and went through the whole process yesterday afternoon.  As far as I can tell, it all went pretty smooth.

I do have one question though.  Even after having the radiator shop braze the pin holes shut, after using the metal etch to remove the rust, a couple more opened up.  I know POR-15 is know to be able to seal those pin holes and I taped them up during the sealer process, but I wondering if I can put in a second coat of POR-15 tank sealer?

Another can is $20 shipped and I would wait at least 5 days before going in with it.  I am confident the whole tank is coated, but it just looks kind of thin and I am just wanting some extra peace of mind before putting in all the labor of painting just to have it ruined by leaky pin holes.

Can POR-15 take a second coat over the first?

Thanks!
Jason

[jason405]

So just an update.

I called POR-15 and they said not to attempt a 2nd coating because it will not bond to itself well at all. 

He said if I was worried about the pinholes, I could reenforce them by painting a little POR-15 on the outside of the tank over the pinholes.  (Remember my tank is stripped of paint.)

The problem is, I don't have any left over and I really don't want to spend another $20 for more POR-15 just to use a tiny bit on the outside of the tank. 

If the tank is now water tight due to the first coat of POR-15, which it should be but I'll test it, could I just skim some JB weld over those areas to reenforce them before starting the bondo/filler work?

Thanks!
Jason

[calj737]

Spend the $20 to protect your paint. You need to double check that JB Weld is fuel tolerant. Painting holes with it may not last as gas eats thru then spoils your paint.

1 oz. of prevention...

[jason405]

True. The more I think about it though, the more I just want to test it with gas, and if good, just trust the liner and go strait to body filler.

Maybe still JB weld but only to reenforce the metal. Not to act as a sealer.

I'll see how it does with a gas test then decide.


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[calj737]

Use water, not gas. If it does leak, then cleaning the gas from your tank is yet another step! Liquid is liquid. Save the $ and use tap water. Then pour into the drain or garden 

[jason405]

Good cal Calj! Will do!


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[jason405]

So I'm working through the 3K tune up and so far everything is checking out. 

1. I gaped and installed new plugs.
2. Checked the points gap - they checked out and looked good and clean.
3. Checked the cam chain tension - the screw didn't move. Safe to assume it was fine and didn't need to move?
4. Started on checking valve clearances and cylinder 1 seemed fine with the feeler gauges. Will check the rest tonight.

This thing ran 3 years ago so I guess its possible that a lot of things are setup properly already? I'm just not finding things I need to adjust. At least not yet

Still need to check the timing (which I'm not sure how to do, or if I really need to since it WAS running), check/adjust the clutch, mount the carbs, cable up the new throttle and clutch cables, wire for spark, fill with oil and gas and give her a shot!

Getting excited to try to start it up!

 

[jason405]

Well... SHE'S ALIVE!!!

I adjusted the built out a new set of bars (new throttle, and clutch lever, as well as new cables), mounted the carbs, wired up the ignition and starter, filled with oil and gas.

Looks like at least the lower portion of the tank is sealed! No leaks so far but I only put about a 1/4 tank worth of gas in.

Turned the petcock on to my newly rebuilt carbs for the first time, the bowls filled up, AND crap! There comes gas out the #3 overflow tube. A couple taps on the bowl with a screwdriver handle... All is good.  No leaks since.

Took the tappet covers off #1 and #4 and ran the starter with no spark to make sure oil was getting to the head. Everything was wet with oil. All looked good. OK, ignition on. Hit the starter for a few seconds, nothing. Hit it again - heard it sputter. OK, thats promising. Repeat this a few times with a buddy giving a little throttle and holding the choke closed (choke able rusted and won't pull) and finally it started up!!!

Let it run a bit, and dialed up the idle screw so we could let go of the throttle. And there it was, purring away. 

Killed it and started it a few more times and after the first start it fires off FAST with no issue.  Also kicked it with ease.

So two initial questions.

1. The kick start would not catch with the clutch pulled in.  Only with the lever out. Thoughts on this? Is that normal? Doesn't seem super safe to me.

2. This is less comforting.  As we back down the idle screw to see if if would hold a nice 1200 RPM idle (which it did very well), it got quite enough for us to hear a rattle coming from the transmission area inside the crank case.  I need to do some more trouble shooting but any thoughts on this? What to check and in what order?

I will try to get the noise on video and post it.


Overall I am thrilled! First bike first project and its running!!  Can't thank everyone enough for all the help and support!

Jason

[jason405]

Here are a couple videos.

This one is starting it once it was warmed up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x94DTTDvTAY&feature=youtu.be

This one is just it running. Not sure if you can pick out the rattle noise or not. I will try to do another video focusing on that sound.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af58THIDfDg