Author Topic: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?  (Read 7860 times)

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Offline simon#42

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #50 on: March 11, 2014, 04:54:52 PM »
yes it is , but is still interesting . excuse my ignorance but why is the north having to subsidise the south so much ?

Because the North doesn't want the military "Riff Raff" in their states?  ;D
"In all but a handful of states, Department of Defense dollars account for by far the majority of federal dollars. "
FYI: It's actually much cheaper to operate the Military in the warmer climes.
Anyway, you don't place a big Military complex in the heart of Densely populated areas (not that they don't grow up around such places after the fact).  War games, air bases, weapons test facilities, etc., are naturally located in sparsely populated locales.  Less people, less taxable income.  Not too hard to see why gross dollar presentations appear to be a "subsidy".

The posted data is only "interesting" if you don't find it useful where the money went and who ultimately benefited from it.



thanks i understand a bit better now .

Offline JeffSTL

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #51 on: March 11, 2014, 07:44:09 PM »
yes it is , but is still interesting . excuse my ignorance but why is the north having to subsidise the south so much ?

Because the North doesn't want the military "Riff Raff" in their states?  ;D
"In all but a handful of states, Department of Defense dollars account for by far the majority of federal dollars. "
FYI: It's actually much cheaper to operate the Military in the warmer climes.
Anyway, you don't place a big Military complex in the heart of Densely populated areas (not that they don't grow up around such places after the fact).  War games, air bases, weapons test facilities, etc., are naturally located in sparsely populated locales.  Less people, less taxable income.  Not too hard to see why gross dollar presentations appear to be a "subsidy".

The posted data is only "interesting" if you don't find it useful where the money went and who ultimately benefited from it.



thanks i understand a bit better now .

Two tired, while you make a good point, it hardly explains the situation. It's a complicated socioeconomic issue. Southern states have the highest rates of poverty. How much higher would the poverty rates be without all of those military base jobs? Without all of those military jobs how much more assistance would they need? The south has the highest percentage of people on wellfare. The south has the least educated workforce. While southern states had (and still have) weak labor laws, the north was heavily unionized, which, lead to a much broader and more stable tax base of a prospering middle class.


Offline TwoTired

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #52 on: March 11, 2014, 10:16:15 PM »
Two tired, while you make a good point, it hardly explains the situation.
Er, what "situation" was I trying to explain?

It's a complicated socioeconomic issue.
It certainly can be.  Depending on how it is defined and how many facts are hidden or subverted.

Southern states have the highest rates of poverty. How much higher would the poverty rates be without all of those military base jobs?

This is like the "How long have you been beating your wife?", argument.  Where the assumption is buried within the question.  However, it is still only conjecture based on what ifs and supposition.    The bases HAVE been placed there, and the population, indigenous or imported, adapted to what they were subjected to endure.  One could also ask how much higher the poverty rates would have been if all the military base jobs were comprised of only southern locals.  Couldn't be that northern imports drove locals into poverty, could it?

The south's climate naturally has a much longer growing season for a wider variety of plant species, making it more suitable for raising crops on sparsely peopled large land areas.  The north has long periods where the only suitable production is inside factories and office buildings.  I don't think it is a coincidence that wall street investment, banking, and insurance companies are primarily located in the north where they pay minimum dollar for food products.

Further, it is easier to simply survive in warmer climates, without the risk of losing fingers and toes to frostbite. The south with it's warmer climate, allows those with less resources to survive through the seasons.
One might argue that the northerners have already killed off those locals that didn't pay the piper for their very survival during cold winters.  Its the adapt or die scenario.

Also, there are some cultures that don't measure their self worth or fulfilling life enrichment based on wall street standards of the almighty dollar or having the most possessions that a consumer exploiting society constantly preaches as the essence of life itself.

Without all of those military jobs how much more assistance would they need?
They can grow more food, and year round, than the northern states can.
What is it they need from the North?  An investment banker, perhaps?  Paving supplies?  Tourists?

We could also ask, without the military personnel garnered from those states, would there even be "wealthy" Northern states?

The south has the highest percentage of people on wellfare.
Can you quote a source for this claim?

The south has the least educated workforce.
  Can you cite your sources for this conclusion?


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Offline JeffSTL

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #53 on: March 12, 2014, 04:06:48 AM »
Two tired, while you make a good point, it hardly explains the situation.
Er, what "situation" was I trying to explain?

Er, not sure what you are confused about. Simon asked why the north is subsidizing the south and you explained it away by saying it was because of military spending. I'm suggesting there is much more to it than that.

This isn't easy to do on my phone. I'll do my best in brief moments of down time in my 15hr work day.

Offline JeffSTL

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #54 on: March 12, 2014, 04:22:50 AM »


The south has the least educated workforce.
  Can you cite your sources for this conclusion?

Here's a handy little color coded map.
Again, at work and not at a computer.

Offline JeffSTL

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #55 on: March 12, 2014, 04:28:48 AM »


The south has the highest percentage of people on wellfare.
Can you quote a source for this claim?



Another quick map. Darker blue=higher percentage of welfare recipients.

Offline JeffSTL

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #56 on: March 12, 2014, 04:39:09 AM »

Further, it is easier to simply survive in warmer climates, without the risk of losing fingers and toes to frostbite. The south with it's warmer climate, allows those with less resources to survive through the seasons.
One might argue that the northerners have already killed off those locals that didn't pay the piper for their very survival during cold winters.  Its the adapt or die scenario.

Also, there are some cultures that don't measure their self worth or fulfilling life enrichment based on wall street standards of the almighty dollar or having the most possessions that a consumer exploiting society constantly preaches as the essence of life itself.



Easier to survive so long as you don't mind being hungry. Some cultures might measure their self worth based on how well they treat their fellow citizens.

Map info graphics are cool!
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 04:54:52 AM by JeffSTL »

Offline JeffSTL

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #57 on: March 12, 2014, 04:45:05 AM »
Seems that, while already leading in education, the north is increasing spending on education as the south continues to cut.

Bonus info graphic

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #58 on: March 12, 2014, 11:18:18 AM »


The south has the least educated workforce.
  Can you cite your sources for this conclusion?

Here's a handy little color coded map.
Again, at work and not at a computer.

Pretty maps and charts.  But still no source for data.  Such things are usually created to prove a point, and often exclude relevant data.

I can make pretty maps, too.  But, then it wouldn't be from your "trusted" source, whoever or whatever that is.

I'm not sure why you feel so superior to the people of the south.


I still think a key factor is the density of people to land area.  Maybe I'll post some maps and charts, too.

P.S.
Wait, maybe I missed something.  Are you saying your conclusions are based solely on the maps and charts you've posted here?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 12:05:47 PM by TwoTired »
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline JeffSTL

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #59 on: March 12, 2014, 12:02:49 PM »


The south has the least educated workforce.
  Can you cite your sources for this conclusion?

Here's a handy little color coded map.
Again, at work and not at a computer.

Pretty maps and charts.  But still no source for data.  Such things are usually created to prove a point, and often exclude relevant data.

I can make pretty maps, too.  But, then it wouldn't be from your "trusted" source, whoever or whatever that is.

I'm not sure why you feel so superior to the people of the south.


I still think a key factor is the density of people to land area.  Maybe I'll post some maps and charts, too.

Just offering some anecdotal evidence to try to answer the question Simon asked. Again, I'm working 15hrs a day and will not be at a computer, so, you'll have to excuse my lack of sources and citations. This is a forum, I'm not writing a dissertation for my PhD or a column for a newspaper. Just wasting some time while I'm not busy. You are connected to the internet...look it up.

I don't feel superior to people in the south at all. Again, just throwing some things out there to try to offer explanations of why things are the way they are. Hell, I'm from Missouri, not much different than the south. You never feel superior to anyone on this forum, do you?

You seem to have it figured out. Population density...no need to explain yourself to me. Conversation isn't really that interesting.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #60 on: March 12, 2014, 12:35:14 PM »
Based on 2008 Data.
This is just military contracts, and doesn't include expenditures by military base personnel dumping their pay dollars in the economy.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Markcb750

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Re: Starve the poor and dilute our fuels. Why?
« Reply #61 on: March 12, 2014, 05:09:56 PM »
Percent of residents on ADHD medication by state.





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