Author Topic: Finally going to electronic ignition. Which one? Need coils?  (Read 5314 times)

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Offline Rgconner

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Re: Finally going to electronic ignition. Which one? Need coils?
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2014, 10:34:45 PM »
Remember that if you go 3 ohm coils you need the 1 ohm resistor packs to prevent overheating the electrical system.

Wires feeding the coil can melt without the packs.
1975 CB550K aka "Grease Monkey"

Offline PeWe

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Re: Finally going to electronic ignition. Which one? Need coils?
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2014, 10:36:54 PM »
If you use points, use correct brand. TEC. I did not know that the aftermarket brand Dachi was extra bad until I read about it here. For me was the point something I had to replace every season. I was just told end of 70's that CB750 eats points, the complete plate with points, capacitors. I might have replaced good used TEC with BAD new Dachi....
I remember how tricky it was with static timing. Correct timing, but not after tighten the screws holding the points....

I have installed PAMCO Ultimate when I think this will work better at higher revs, all revs.

If I had a CB750 in complete OEM shape, OK with points when this is one  thing with CB750
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

AJK

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Re: Finally going to electronic ignition. Which one? Need coils?
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2014, 11:21:13 PM »
I have the pamco ultimate (17-6903 coils). The system is very good, but you will need to check that your advance is operating smoothly from idle to max advance with no jitter. You can observe this with a timing light. I have strong spark, good mileage and easy starting, however I had to make sure all the components of the advancer mechanism worked in tandem with the rotor which i got to work well eventually.

Using points will not give you timing jitter since it works in harmony with the advancer unit. In this respect, Hondamans system will *boost* the output to the coil & plugs & yet retain the smoothness of advancer unit operation because the points & all honda ignition parts are retained.
  I'm not against using points and on this bike, having an advancer mechanism that works smoothly throughout will make for a smooth running motor.

I cant speak for the other systems. I may end up bringing out an advancer-less system for the sohc that is computer controlled in the future sometime (to allow for any advance curve one wishes for).
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 11:24:48 PM by AJK »

Offline PeWe

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Re: Finally going to electronic ignition. Which one? Need coils?
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2014, 02:49:57 AM »
I had to adjust the advancer unit springs after installing the PAMCO. Full advance at idle 1500 rpm. I shortened both springs 1/2 turn.  After that steady 'F' around 1500rpm, full advance at around 2700 rpm. Look very steady with ignition lamp.

Point system rotor was affected by the points too with constant contact, not only the adv mechanism springs, less risk that it could advance too early.

When I had problem with the advance unit I fully understood why people buy Dyna 2000. No need of advance unit, advance curves set by the Dyna 2000. Better tuning possibilities
http://www.dynoman.net/ignition/dyna2000.html
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 03:13:23 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline wardenerd

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Re: Finally going to electronic ignition. Which one? Need coils?
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2014, 04:04:28 AM »
I run the accent system on my 550F. Been on for two or three years.  It was easy to install uses no points and has improved my bikes performance immensely.  I do carry the poits and plate in my saddle bags for back up.  Required nothing in addition to the new plate and the electronics on the plate.

Offline 70CB750

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Re: Finally going to electronic ignition. Which one? Need coils?
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2014, 06:50:05 AM »
+1 on shortening springs for Pamco, maybe I would have to do it anyway but it made a great difference in how the bike behaved.
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Offline cameron

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Re: Finally going to electronic ignition. Which one? Need coils?
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2014, 04:59:07 PM »
I'd like to weigh in that I ran a Dyna S for a few years in Seattle with no problem... but after a year in the Arizona heat, it failed.
Was it inevitable? Was it the Heat? One can never know.
I am back with points... and she runs like a top :)

Maybe Hondaman next time I'm bored?
1976 CB550F

AJK

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Re: Finally going to electronic ignition. Which one? Need coils?
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2014, 06:30:32 PM »
I don't get very excited when i see electronics anywhere near heat. What it means is that it will fail on you at some point - depending on the robustness of the electronics and the amount of heat exposure/time its given.

We have what's called the 'Arrhenius' equation.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrhenius_equation


Here is a quote taken from the following site.

"A historically useful generalization supported by Arrhenius' equation is that, for many common chemical reactions at room temperature, the reaction rate doubles for every 10 degree Celsius increase in temperature."


All this really says is that reactions double for every 10 deg C increase. This is the same reason that dirty clothes/dishes get cleaner much faster in hot water instead of cold.

The same goes for electronics. The more heat you expose them to, the more you are lessening their lifetime. In other words, they 'age' a lot faster under that heat. I am an Engineer, so i tend to look at things like this.

Underneath the points cover of your sohc actaully gets really hot, especially after a hot soak. Go for a good ride, park it & let it sit for a few mins, then try and touch it.

People will say, but electronics are so much better these days. Yes, i would agree, that is a true statement. You have to remember that the Arhenius equation isn't going to go away in the next 1000 yrs or so either. So even though 'modern' components are so much better, they too one day will die.

I'm hoping that you are now starting to see that having electronics under that points cover is not the holy grail of all things. There are a number of ignition systems on the market where this is the case. Whatever your thoughts on ignition points are, whether you love them or hate them, it's true that points are far more robust than any electronic component under the points cover. They are simply immune to heat issues when compared to an electronic component in that environment.

Hondaman has taken an approach that i like with his ignition, which is to keep the transistorised module away from heat, thus only using the points as a triggering mechanism. From a 'Good Engineering Practice' perspective, this is a better way of doing it. The points (triggering mechanism only) can take the heat all year long - year in - year out - and the box just continues to work because it is away from the heat, probably with a near zero failure rate of the box.

The Pamco ignition is also a good ignition system, however all its components are under the points cover. Pamco Pete has made an effort to chose his components wisely with due consideration to heat ratings. The main components he has chosen are not overly affected by heat due to their high heat rating, but they are still exposed to it. Time will tell how long the components will last. My guess is that it will be a very long time and its not something people should be worried about. At least, no more worried about it than if your car's ignition were to suddenly die one day, because both are using similar rated components.

For other system like Dyna, I've heard both good and bad things about them. Some people swear by them and others would never buy one again.
  I think when someone talks about dyna, they should distinguish between a plain dyna system and a dyna 2000. The dyna 2000 seems to be an ignition 'done right' to me as it has its ignition module away from the heat, and in doing so, also contains a microcontroller that handles the ignition advance. As long as the triggering mechanism is robust and immune to heat, then this system should last as long as the bike.

Cycle-X ignition is also under the points cover. I actually really like this type of system in that it does away with the advancer as well, but the Engineer in me looks at the electronics that are subject to heat & how long things are going to last. I'm sure its a sturdy unit & that the designers thought about components and heat exposure. I like the idea of a high resolution optical sensor, but you need to ensure the underneath of that points cover stays *clean*.

One thing i look for in an ignition system is if it contains electrolytic capacitors and if the capacitors are subject to heat. Electrolytic Capacitors these days (unless military spec) are plainly crap and you can expect them to fail if you keep it long enough. When electronics parts fail, its generally these caps that are the first to go. Resistors and some IC's are quite robust and can usually go on if the caps are replaced.

I have said the above for a reason regarding caps. I have recently found another sohc ignition system on the market (yet a different one to those mentioned above - i won't mention it). This system contains an electrolytic capacitor under the points cover. Personally, i won't touch it.

As for me, I have a pamco and am quite happy with it. I expect it to last a good while and i'm not at all worried about being stranded anywhere with it. If and when that happens, i'll deal with it then. In general, i'm treating it no different to having something similar fail on my car. The pamco is also a very simple unit and could be serviced at home by someone who is knowledgable in electronics if a component was to ever fail.

Looking at all the pros & cons of each system is interesting & like everything, there is always the value for $$$ that needs to be considered. Hopefully this can give you something to think about when making your selection.

Online dave500

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Re: Finally going to electronic ignition. Which one? Need coils?
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2014, 08:16:54 PM »
i use boyers,had a few,the curve is in the black box(or blue or red depending on the model) away from heat,i like them.

AJK

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Re: Finally going to electronic ignition. Which one? Need coils?
« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2014, 12:01:01 AM »
i use boyers,had a few,the curve is in the black box(or blue or red depending on the model) away from heat,i like them.

Hi Dave, out of interest, can you change the ignition curve/profile on the boyer? Or is it pre-set and fixed?

Offline bwaller

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Re: Finally going to electronic ignition. Which one? Need coils?
« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2014, 05:27:45 AM »
AJK, I read your above with interest. Concerning the Dyna 2K, I tested all five mapping options (two for SOHC4's) on my race engine on a dyno and found no difference. I'm fully prepared to say the two D2K units I bought were during that crazy period where they had many failures including mine. So it may be that my unit showed no difference in ign. advance because there was an issue with the unit, not just the crank triggers. Regardless, I went in a different direction for my race engine but I need something for my 750 and after listening to Dave for a couple years, I'll try a Boyer!  ;D

I bought the D2K thinking it offered exactly what I needed. Funny because I was replacing a single trigger Prestolite that had been excellent for 32 years and 70,000 miles. Those Prestolite units were intended as a "points replacement" back in the day and has taken heat from performance guys because it is so simple. Hah...maybe I'll re-install it!

Online dave500

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Re: Finally going to electronic ignition. Which one? Need coils?
« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2014, 12:32:45 PM »
i use boyers,had a few,the curve is in the black box(or blue or red depending on the model) away from heat,i like them.

Hi Dave, out of interest, can you change the ignition curve/profile on the boyer? Or is it pre-set and fixed?

the curve is preset.

AJK

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Re: Finally going to electronic ignition. Which one? Need coils?
« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2014, 07:27:20 PM »
Thanks Dave. The boyers most likely come out with a generic curve. I.e. static at 10deg with a total adv ~35deg at 2500 rpms or so. I'm only guessing here but those figures are probably average & suitable for most sohc motors give or take a little. They may have that detail in the boyer documentation in your package?

bwaller, Interesting that you didn't notice much difference. A lot of the time, timing can make all the difference, but again, everything works together as a 'system' with cam, carbs, pipes, etc. I havn't seen the D2K system settings, but i'm assuming that the gain of the curve slants differently & total advance may vary across those settings as well. Their documentation should mention that.

The best gain you'll get from such a system is when you have a hotted motor and want to improve bottom end tractibility, but for most, this will be a non-issue. In this case, more initial advance and less total helps. This could be either done with the mechanical advancer stop positions and springs, or with a computerised system like a D2K.

I've written a little about the curve/profiles in this post http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=131339.msg1475432#msg1475432
with the graph of what i'm talking about at the bottom of that post.

Online dave500

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Re: Finally going to electronic ignition. Which one? Need coils?
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2014, 01:57:10 AM »
if your riding the bike properly your on full advance all the time anyway,curves are for city stop start traffic and starting the engine on these high rpm honda engines,unlike a lugging slow by comparison 5500 rpm V8 engine that needs a gracefull curve till 3500,try to think of the curve as a retarding curve so you can start the bike easily,whatever set up anyone gets just strobe it to full advance once it stops advancing running the engine,where the F mark ends up so be it,dont worry about it.

Offline gheorghe

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Re: Finally going to electronic ignition. Which one? Need coils?
« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2014, 12:12:14 PM »
I had a PAMCO installed on my XS 650 Yamaha and I thought it was extremely simple and easy to use, no mechanical parts touching, except for the advance unit but overall it is very minimalistic. The bike ran great and it never gave me any issues. It was also super easy to install.

For my CB I think I will run it again just because of my previous positive experience.

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Finally going to electronic ignition. Which one? Need coils?
« Reply #40 on: March 13, 2014, 08:01:16 PM »
I always have a chuckle when folks use the excuse of ' I want to get rid of the points to reduce the maintenance on my bike'... these SOHC 4 bikes are now all over 35 yrs. old and if once-a-year attention to your points is too low a maintenance interval I shudder to think what state of tune/safety the rest of the bike is in..... :o
If your sure it's a carb problem; it's ignition,
If your sure it's an ignition problem; it's carbs....

AJK

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Re: Finally going to electronic ignition. Which one? Need coils?
« Reply #41 on: March 13, 2014, 10:37:25 PM »
if your riding the bike properly your on full advance all the time anyway,curves are for city stop start traffic and starting the engine on these high rpm honda engines,unlike a lugging slow by comparison 5500 rpm V8 engine that needs a gracefull curve till 3500,try to think of the curve as a retarding curve so you can start the bike easily,whatever set up anyone gets just strobe it to full advance once it stops advancing running the engine,where the F mark ends up so be it,dont worry about it.

Yes Dave, thats pretty much true.

Online dave500

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Re: Finally going to electronic ignition. Which one? Need coils?
« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2014, 01:29:12 AM »
you might want to tailor a curve for a full on race honda engine?,but once under way its full advance the whole time,these have a pretty slow piston speed for the rpm they do and the engine dosent really see a great load unlike a heavy car launching off the line or powering out of a corner and uphill, with a longer stroke and faster piston speed large car engines need the curve more controlled from idle to say around 3500 to provide the best torque/power and no pre ignition,the after market ignitions cater for this hi po need with great products,they lug and load through that rpm range whereas our hondas just spin quickly past it and beyond,and never come down untill they stop,i feel tunable electronic curves for our engines is a little more marketing?

im not one for programmable ignitions on these engines.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2014, 01:59:33 AM by dave500 »

AJK

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Re: Finally going to electronic ignition. Which one? Need coils?
« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2014, 02:51:10 AM »
... ,i feel tunable electronic curves for our engines is a little more marketing?

im not one for programmable ignitions on these engines.

For a stock engine, i'd agree. For a worked engine aiming for higher end power, but with the added benefit of low end tractability for the street, the curve will work wonders.

Offline flatlander

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Re: Finally going to electronic ignition. Which one? Need coils?
« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2014, 02:54:52 AM »
here in europe the electronic ignition that's most readily available is the accent: http://doc.honda4.nl/elz2coil/Ignition%20En%20rev%20b.pdf

does anyone have experience of how it compares with the rest?
looks like it's similar to the PAMCO without the aluminium plate. would also have the same potential problem of being exposed to heat.

AJK

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Re: Finally going to electronic ignition. Which one? Need coils?
« Reply #45 on: March 14, 2014, 03:11:56 AM »
here in europe the electronic ignition that's most readily available is the accent: http://doc.honda4.nl/elz2coil/Ignition%20En%20rev%20b.pdf

does anyone have experience of how it compares with the rest?
looks like it's similar to the PAMCO without the aluminium plate. would also have the same potential problem of being exposed to heat.

Just by looking at the pdf, there are the lower 2 mosfets that handle the current supply to the coils. The rest is low power electronics for the purpose of conditioning the triggering signals to those mosfets. Possibly schmitt triggers and some basic gating to square up the signals and latch them to drive the mosfets. I've got no idea about this particular module, i'm just looking at the pdf and having an educated guess.
  Compared to the pamco, this has too many components and no extra gain IMO, leading to increased chances of a individual part going at an unfortunant time. If you read my previous post about capacitors, you know that they scare me, esp under the heat. Caps dry out a lot faster under heat.
 The pamco is a far more integrated unit and contains the signal conditioning within, so there is far less that can go wrong. Again, pamcopete has thought this out.
  Personally, i dont see how this would be an improvment over the pamco in any way, imo.

Online dave500

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Re: Finally going to electronic ignition. Which one? Need coils?
« Reply #46 on: March 14, 2014, 03:21:03 AM »
... ,i feel tunable electronic curves for our engines is a little more marketing?

im not one for programmable ignitions on these engines.

For a stock engine, i'd agree. For a worked engine aiming for higher end power, but with the added benefit of low end tractability for the street, the curve will work wonders.

you might want to tailor a curve for a full on race honda engine?,was in my earlier post,and you dont really want a full on race motor on the street.

no street bike rider will really benefit from a tunable below 3500 rpm advance curve!lets get real here!and not lull people into unexpected performance gains,the average bloke will try to apply this tech to his stock engine and go backwards?by the way i only ride in our hinterland,i couldnt think of anything worse than riding in suburbia!
« Last Edit: March 14, 2014, 03:28:39 AM by dave500 »