Topic: Re: 650 overbore/550 engine hybrid underway...final stages

[paulages]

carbs are synced, and most of the oil leaks seem to be dried up. plenty of oil pressure to the top end. i had to run out of the shop tonight short of riding it, but i'll post some pictures and update tomorrow. i have to say, i was really relieved to hear it fire up and idle so smoothly to begin with. the baffle i made for the mac header sounds great. can't wait to see what it's potential is..

by the way, mike-- thanks again for the beautiful head work. 

[Soos]

AWESOME!!!

Are the carbs you are running the late('77/78) cb750 pumper carbs?
Or did you go with something else?


AWESOME build thread! pics would be great, i can't wait to see what it looks like!
Did you paint the motor?

l8r

[paulages]

AWESOME!!!

Are the carbs you are running the late('77/78) cb750 pumper carbs?
Or did you go with something else?


AWESOME build thread! pics would be great, i can't wait to see what it looks like!
Did you paint the motor?

l8r

the carbs are early cb750K style. i did paint the motor. VHT nu-cast aluminum. i love the color. i'll take more pics today, weather allowing! this one was a week or so ago, before i moved the oil lines to the front of the engine so as not to interfere with the carb throttle assembly.

[hymodyne]

Damn fine work there.

--I want one.

hym

[tonycb650]

did your charging system work ok?

[paulages]

Can't wait to see the condensed build thread with out all the back and forth banter. Are you going to include final measurements and parts lists if anyone was wanting to create a paulages inspired engine build?  Not that my two spare 650 engines need rebuilding anyways 

Any reviews on the cartridge emulators, dyna ignition etc? Any real benefit of the dyna over the stock ignition?

More pictures please! Lots more!

there will definitely be a condensed "how to" thread. as for a parts list- much of this conversion requires more than "bolt on and leave the thinking to someone else" type work. i'll do my best to post accurate specs, but much of the machining just has to be evaluated while doing it. haven't ridden the cartridge emulators enough yet to report on them. the dyna 2000 is great for high CR engines with its tuneable advance curves and rev limiter. there has been some documentation on here of the dyna S providing weaker spark than points at higher RPM, but the dyna 2000 claims to have sprong spark up to 16,000 RPM.

[paulages]

wouldn't you know it, the bike's done and it's pouring rain outside. ok, ride reports later. pics now.

[Spikeybike]

well done my friend well done

love the oil lines very cool 

[bwaller]

Looks good Paul.

[Soos]

AWESOME!!!
That just looks BADASS!


 Did you just tilt the carbs back a bit to give enough clearance for the cable hanger?
Or did it fit?
If it just fit without interference, what year(or carb model #) are those carbs?
The '73 carbs I use on my 650 had to have a little "massaging" done(ie, banging, heating and bending) to the cable hanger for the carbs to fit without interference with the head.

Awww.... Rain?
Too bad.


Next time i come out to Oregon, I will have to do more than just job hunt!!
Are there any tracks out there?
 

Keep both wheels down, and watch the cages....

l8r

[paulages]

No CR's?

CR's? mikunis you mean? i wish. i will eventually, but i'll have to do a little more wheeling and dealing to pay for them.


soos- i used the same carbs, just ditched the return cable.

[bill440cars]

       WHOA!!!! MAN, that is one Fantastic job, Paul! That job just LOOKS powerful, just sitting there! Bet you can't wait to take it out and check it out! Great job there Paul! Of course I was really liking the bike BEFORE the "Hybrid Motor". Take care and ENJOY as soon as possible.
BTW, your latest posts have taken my mind off of what I've been going through and I'm all for that.
                                 Take care, Bill

[paulages]

       WHOA!!!! MAN, that is one Fantastic job, Paul! That job just LOOKS powerful, just sitting there! Bet you can't wait to take it out and check it out! Great job there Paul! Of course I was really liking the bike BEFORE the "Hybrid Motor". Take care and ENJOY as soon as possible.
BTW, your latest posts have taken my mind off of what I've been going through and I'm all for that.
                                 Take care, Bill

thanks, bill! sorry to hear you're going through hard times. glad i can be of assistance. 

[paulages]

well, lots of jetting and tuning to do. i think the 120 mains are way too big. can't even get into the mid throttle range. feels like i'm hitting the rev limiter even though it's set at 10,500. it idles and runs around great at low RPM. it seems to want the mixture screws turned way in. i'm at 1/2 turn out right now to start easily with no choke. i'll try dropping in the 110 mains that came with a keyster i had and didn't use. stock 650 with slide carbs used 90 mains, and the CV carbs used 120s. ported head with a hot cam, cb750 carbs,  and pods, etc? i thought i'd need to go much closer to a 750 setup, but maybe the 650 hemi head is simply that much more efficient.

also... oil leaks and oil leaks. major bummer. most of them i'm not worried about (sump gasket? WTF?), but it appears to be leaking at the head on the left side. i don't even know where it could be doing this unless one of the rubber pucks that cover the head bolts is leaking, as i plugged the oil lines through the barrels and head. speaking of... i can't seem to dry up the fittings at the head. ironic, since the whole point of the external lines was to avoid leaks. i need to find copper washers for the 12mm banjo bolts i think. my supplier only has them in aluminum, which i think is probably not quite soft enough.

[Soos]

Just a thought...


Since you are bypassing the stock oil passages(and hence the restrictors) are you getting too much oil to the head, thereby robbing the crankshaft bearings of pressure??

Good luck!!

Are you using teflon tape to help seal the oil line connectors you have on the bike?

l8r

[alltherightpills]

I don't remember if this was discussed already, but why did you decide not to put the left engine cover back on?  Or is this just temporary?

[pdxPope]

Yeah, an open secondary, eh? Well don't you just have the biggest balls in the neighborhood     

Seriously though, fantastic as usual!

I'm surprised that the 120's are giving you that much of a headache. Especially considering all of the aforementioned upgrades. I'm running 100's in my 500 and the only mods are the evil pods & a homemade exhaust. Where do you have the needle clipped at?

-JP

[paulages]

Just a thought...


Since you are bypassing the stock oil passages(and hence the restrictors) are you getting too much oil to the head, thereby robbing the crankshaft bearings of pressure??

Good luck!!

Are you using teflon tape to help seal the oil line connectors you have on the bike?

l8r

i have restrictors in the lines. i didn't use teflon tape, as most of the fittings are compression fittings, but that's not where the leaks are anyway. they're at the banjo fittings.

not sure what i'll do about the chain guard. for now i like it off so i can look for leaks.

i installed the 90 mains i had from a PD carb 550, and it was less than happy. there was virtually no difference between the 120 and 110 in terms of response, but the 90s are clearly too small. it chokes up as soon as i crack the throttle. that's all i have for now. i have a hard time believing that my problem is the mains... you'd think that one of the three would run, albeit crappy if still off. i'm not sure where to look next. jetting is still an issue of course, but i'm not sure it's my main problem here.

[bwaller]

From your description of the plugs yesterday I tend to agree at this point about carburation and why I asked about what you set the advance at. It just seems like you're not getting any....how many times have you rechecked the Dyna wiring?

[paulages]

i'm about to again. i checked and rechecked quite a bit when i wired it. i did just make a realization regarding my advance- i set it at 35 degrees static as marked on the rotor, but my TDC was about 5 degrees retarded. i think that means i'm only at 30 degrees right now, but that still doesn't seem like enough to be causing this problem. i'm rechecking it now...

[paulages]

ok...i had it set to 40 degrees instead of 35, due to the difference in true TDC i found when timing the cam. in any case, this is what the charts call for using curves 4 and 5, so i don't think that should have mattered a bit. i really think my rev limiter is malfunctioning. guys who have used the dyna 2000: what are the extra blue, white, and purple wires coming directly from the module for? i assume that's where the USB connection happens for programming the curves? anyway, i don't know what else could be going on. i'll call dyna when they're open.

[bwaller]

You're right about the three extra wires. You may also be right about the limiter. I had issues with it early on, could rev it to the moon checking if it worked and it would not. Then magically one ride it was fine, it baffled me.... but that's not unusual.

It's also a wonder the engine to didn't blow to hell when I kept checking to see if the damn thing would cut in.

Let us know what the good folks at Dyna say.

[paulages]

i'm convinced it's the limiter. i hooked a 650 tach up to the engine, and it cuts out at exactly 5900 RPM. sounds just like a rev limiter...pop, pop from too much fuel being dumped and not ignited. it runs incredibly smoothly up until that point. i wonder if there's some way to flash the unit? it's strange that yours was acting funny too. i'll keep moving the switch and restarting i guess. they seem to be closed for the weekend, so i'll unfortunately have to wait until tuesday. 

[MRieck]

ok...i had it set to 40 degrees instead of 35, due to the difference in true TDC i found when timing the cam. in any case, this is what the charts call for using curves 4 and 5, so i don't think that should have mattered a bit. i really think my rev limiter is malfunctioning. guys who have used the dyna 2000: what are the extra blue, white, and purple wires coming directly from the module for? i assume that's where the USB connection happens for programming the curves? anyway, i don't know what else could be going on. i'll call dyna when they're open.

Paul
  The 2 units I use are not prgrammable....I'll look but the only extra wire I remeber is the orange for the retard. If it's killing the engine like you say.....and you know what you are talking about I'm sure of that.....I'd say it's the limiter. My only other suggestion is to install the stock ignition unit and see what happens.

[paulages]

ok...i had it set to 40 degrees instead of 35, due to the difference in true TDC i found when timing the cam. in any case, this is what the charts call for using curves 4 and 5, so i don't think that should have mattered a bit. i really think my rev limiter is malfunctioning. guys who have used the dyna 2000: what are the extra blue, white, and purple wires coming directly from the module for? i assume that's where the USB connection happens for programming the curves? anyway, i don't know what else could be going on. i'll call dyna when they're open.

Paul
  The 2 units I use are not prgrammable....I'll look but the only extra wire I remeber is the orange for the retard. If it's killing the engine like you say.....and you know what you are talking about I'm sure of that.....I'd say it's the limiter. My only other suggestion is to install the stock ignition unit and see what happens.

i looked into it, and the extra wires are in fact for the programming. unfortunately i can't hook up the stock 650 ignition, as i don't have it anymore. i can't hook up points either, as the 650 crank has a larger stud for mounting the ignition than the bolt that the 550/750 use. i think i'll see if i could modify a points rotor to work on the 650 crank. i had to drill out the dyna rotor to make it fit.