Topic: 9-11, Homeland Security, paranoia, dissolved civil rights What Have we Gained?

[ElCheapo]

Hey hey hey, While I thought the post was my typical hot tamale, I did ask everyone to stay off the conspiracy theories.

Seeing that no one has offer not one single thing as an example I will continue with my view that we gained not one single thing in all of the lives lost.

[Rocking-M]

Sorry El Cheepo, but since I've been labled such everything I post is labeled the "bs from a conspiricy theorrist"
so I had to preface my views with my reasons.

To offer an answer to your contention;
No, we have not gained one single thing, yes we have lost a lot more in the way of freedoms.

[ElCheapo]

Sorry El Cheepo, but since I've been labled such everything I post is labeled the "bs from a conspiricy theorrist"
so I had to preface my views with my reasons.

To offer an answer to your contention;
No, we have not gained one single thing, yes we have lost a lot more in the way of freedoms.

Thanks for clarifying 

[tsp37]

“In general, life is better than it ever has been, and if you think that, in the past, there was some golden age of pleasure and plenty to which you would, if you were able, transport yourself, let me say one single word: ’dentistry’.”

P.J. O’Rourke, All the Trouble in the World

Consider the context of this gathering: an Internet based message board where the members discuss their motorcycles.  And beer.  And women.  And excessive potable water!  I have more than I will ever deserve, Sgt. Cheapo, but I do ask for your pardon.

Regards,
Steve in Tennessee

[Duck]

I have to write this even though there are several 9-11 threads on the boards at this time. I will not go down the conspiracy theories and I would appreciate if others did not do so in this thread. If you can keep your response to what we have gained if anything. I am trying to be responsible as I know many read some of my stuff and take it seriously. While this is a serious manner, no need for anyone to get nasty here.

Many times in our history we equate deaths in a conflict of any sort = some level of good for the whole.

As I watch all this crap on TV about 9-11, I become more infuriated. They say that 9-11 was some major turning point in our history. I say bull#$%*. With the death toll at 2973 on 9-11 and 2999 in Iraq to date they have died or nothing in my opinion. Nothing in our country has improved. We still have a raging unemployment, poverty, hunger, and homelessness that is long out of control. We do not enjoy better security or a better economy. Aside from death and a major economic disaster, what have we gotten from this? We do not even enjoy better education, as funds are cut again and again from AP courses in high schools across the country.

Don’t tell me, more secure airlines. I flew only a few months ago and I can tell you I did not feel more secure, I felt more harassed. I am dark skinned of Mexican, Native American, and Polish decent with a beard and I guess the act that I was dressed like an ALL-AMERICAN BIKER did not help things. I was sent to secondary inspection each time I was on the flight. The only saving grace was the fact that I had my USMC Veteran patch on my coat. Otherwise they would have continued to harass me.

My question is what have we gained if anything? I know it is not more freedom. I was nearly arrested as possible terrorist threat because I had a camera near a USMC recruiting office. Doing this has gained them nothing. Did this harassment stop some bombing? No.

We have elaborate spending when it comes to the war and the staggering multi million dollar cost of a freak’in memorial.  We build this huge memorial and no money is spent to better our country or our relationships with other countries in the world? I am not saying that there should not be such a memorial. But I see things like some lady burning up piles of cash making some memorial for her son on some hill. When it is all said and done, what does it do? Nothing, not a damn thing. Does it help anyone? No, it does not. Maybe her money would have been better spent changing the world starting right in her own community fighting hunger. No matter how small our communities are there is a nagging hunger problem. A soup kitchen could have used those funds to make things better for many people. Maybe even fund some employment training to get people back to work, even if in just remedial work to pay for a place to live while they become further educated towards being a productive member of society.

What have you DONE?
Me 4+ man years volunteer service. My spouse 2+.
It's given me a radically different view of the way the world is than that which you are presenting.
-Duck

[Duck]

I think the US is the only country that flushes its toilets with drinkable water? 

We do too, here in Canada. We also water our lawns and wash our cars with it................

Most of the developed world has not considered the installation of dual water service because debt service on the additional infrastructure costs more than treating the additional water.  When it costs less to deliver untreated water, why by golly folks are gonna want to save money and demand that the system change. Capitalism is cool that way. 

Now if you live in a place where water costs a lot and paper costs more, you might just use a little six oz dipper of water to wash your butt after crapping in a pit. Use your left hand. How do I know....BTDT

[seaweb11]

my 2 cents on water.
I have a well on a timer. I ask the well for 60 seconds of water every hour, I also collect every inch of rain water from my roof. All water stored in an underground concrete cistern. Pumped into the house through a number of filtration systems and finaly to the tap. It's GOLD here!!  For most of the year we don't wash cars, have short showers, flush every other time etc. etc.

We Have a major Water War going on here right now on the Island. Some Companies getting it from wells and selling it, 400+ homes that need to buy it and the other side who think their wells are being effected by the bulk water sales.

Looks like we are headed towards a "building code" amendment which will make it mandatory to have a well, storage and a collection system. Thank god,......... now why do they need to be forced in the 1st place

Doesn't  it  just make sense to look after the 3 ft of water that falls on your head every year

Water water every where?

[nickjtc]

We do too, here in Canada. We also water our lawns and wash our cars with it................

Actually, I oversimplified myself a bit. I was referring to 'home' in Kamloops. Here where I am staying in Fort St.John I live outside city limits and therefore not on city water/sewage. So my hosts have to have water trucked in to fill their cistern every three weeks, and their sewage tank emptied at about the same rate.

For obvious reasons there is no car washing or garden watering. And you get a good perspective on water conservation.....if it ain't solid, no need to flush straight away! And the drinking water has to be purified.

[ElCheapo]

If it's yellow leave it mello, if it brown flush it down 

[nickjtc]

If it's yellow leave it mello, if it brown flush it down 

Absolutely! Of course if a person is properly hydrated it shouldn't come out yellow at all......!

[ofreen]

I shall now step onto the soapbox.

People like conspiracy theories, but there is really only one conspiracy.  Any disaster, either natural or manmade (whether the result of connivance, or not) is used for one thing these days.  And that thing is to make rich men even richer.  They will do any deed, tell any lie, and get anybody killed just to feed their greed. 

The lies are there blatantly in front of us, but most of us are not outraged.  Why not?  I think some of it is because most of us are still comfortable.  There is a war going on that most of us ignore.  A war that we began under false pretenses.  We can ignore it because it doesn't affect most of us.  There is no sacrifice on the part of the average person.  They still have their Big Mac and Cokes to eat, TV pablum to watch, their cell phones to talk on, their cars to drive out the driveway 10 times a day in.

As an example, I remember when the SHTF when the My Lai massacre became public knowledge.  We have now had little My Lai's in Iraq where our soldiers have killed noncombatants.  So where is the mass outrage?  There ain't none.  Most of us can't be bothered.  If any of us do have a flicker of conscience about the matter, we can pretend we believe the administration's BS about how we are there to free the Iraqis and keep the world safe from terrorism.

Obviously, this is written from a U.S. perspective.  But I hope our international friends don't feel too smug, for their rich guys are just as culpable, and their populations just as complacent.

I now step off the soapbox.

[Bob Wessner]

As an example, I remember when the SHTF when the My Lai massacre became public knowledge.

If it helps any, I was outraged, even more so over Calley's pardon. I always thought the draft had one advantage, it caused folks to think a little harder about war being a solution, whether they were prospective draftees or the prospective draftees parents. An all volunteer military troubles me a bit. A mix of volunteers and conscripts seems like an appropriate check and balance both in the field and in the voting booth.

[Klark Kent]

it has always seemed that way to me.  they can get just as many soldiers by making the military some people's only option for a better life and at the same time avoid waking up the majority of people who vote.   I guess this is just one more benefit to government's holding education hostage.  Only educate those likely (rich enough) to agree with you.  send the rest to the desert to die.  i dont know if there has ever been a society that forces its poor to join the military if they want to be educated.  and excuses those who can afford their education.  this makes no sense to me. 
oh, why didnt they write life liberty and the pursuit of an education?   that #$%* should be inalienable and happiness was a little far fetched if you ask me
-KK

[ofreen]

I always thought the draft had one advantage, it caused folks to think a little harder about war being a solution, whether they were prospective draftees or the prospective draftees parents.

There is no question in my mind that this is true.

[nickjtc]

The lies are there blatantly in front of us, but most of us are not outraged.  Why not?  I think some of it is because most of us are still comfortable.  There is a war going on that most of us ignore.  A war that we began under false pretenses.  We can ignore it because it doesn't affect most of us.  There is no sacrifice on the part of the average person.  They still have their Big Mac and Cokes to eat, TV pablum to watch, their cell phones to talk on, their cars to drive out the driveway 10 times a day in.

You are absolutely right! We all looked at the 9-11 images, maybe wept a bit for those who suffered, and then went back to our daily lives as if nothing happened. Sometimes we mutter platitudes about "how dreadful it all is", at the appropriate time, and then we go back to our daily lives.

If we lived life believing the maxim that everyone in the world is only six steps away from everyone else then I think that we would have a different perspective on what is happening around us and internationally.

[Klark Kent]

from all the "draft-dodging" and do nothing posts that our republicants and democraps keep accusing each other of, it is pretty clear that the rich have always been able to avoid service, the only thing that has changed is the draft is now in the form of forced volunteerism aided by limited resources and opportunity for vast numbers of people.   allowing the next generation of wealthy politicians to not have to defend against accusations of draft dodging.

i had a bar-versation with a guy i know from my old neighborhood the other night and he said he doesnt vote because it doesnt matter who is elected.  even if they are noble and humane now giving them the power will eventually make them part of the power/money machine or they will be cock-blocked and spit out like jimmy carter.  incremental power corrupts incrementally... whats more he said his boss told everyone not to register to vote because if they do they will get called up for jury duty and he cant have his mechanics missing two days or two weeks without a replacement.

when half the country is voting no to all candidates- by not voting, isnt that majority saying there needs to be significant changes made to the system?

sorry to be off topic, but i can bring it back around:
before 9-11 there was a false sense of security and a burgeoning apathy.  since then the apathy has been exploited and the security issue as well, forcing people to evaluate the system and our government more than we did when clinton was throwing bombs all over iraq and eastern europe.  this post is an example of the conversations we have "gained" since 9-11.  9-11 wasn't the wake up call, our government's response to it WAS.  and everyone who apathetically believed there was no difference between gore and bush (myself included- didnt vote for president in 2000) should have reevaluated that and considered how likely a gore administration would have been to do what the bush admin did:  take an outporing of international support, the likes of which we havent seen since the end of WWII and turn it into the most anti-american period in history in less than five years.  from this its clear that everything was premeditated.  to the point that when the world tried to embrace us and help us be strong after 9-11, our government couldnt process that into their (pre-existing) plan to use it as a way to invade iraq.  I have gained a better understanding of my government, but thats about it, and i cant say i like it.  

sorry for the lengthy post (again) although at this point i think it is expected of me
-KK

[Bob Wessner]

from all the "draft-dodging" and do nothing posts that our republicants and democraps keep accusing each other of, it is pretty clear that the rich have always been able to avoid service,

True enough and it has been as far back as the Civil War. I wasn't rich so I had to go. I still think there would be enough non-wealthy conscripts to help keep things honest and better influence the decisions of our "leaders."

[dusterdude]

As an example, I remember when the SHTF when the My Lai massacre became public knowledge.

If it helps any, I was outraged, even more so over Calley's pardon. I always thought the draft had one advantage, it caused folks to think a little harder about war being a solution, whether they were prospective draftees or the prospective draftees parents. An all volunteer military troubles me a bit. A mix of volunteers and conscripts seems like an appropriate check and balance both in the field and in the voting booth.

i agree