Topic: Powder coating

[Stev-o]

Yes, thanks for setting the record straight Powderman.

And BTW - he has done parts for me and knows what he's talking about.

[Powderman]

I did a quick google and found out that PC lamps cure powder coating from the outside. Not getting the metal (frame) up to the high temps of regular oven curing. If not done right it can leave the coating brittle then you will have problems down the road. Oven curing produces a more durable coating.

Infra Red lamps are expensive and need to be moved around a bunch in order to make sure heat is applied to the whole part for the recommended time. Too much baby sitting for me. UV curing lights only cure what is in direct view of the light, so shadowed area and nooks and crannies never get the heat from the rays. Ovens, gas or electric are the easiest way to get the part to temp and go through the cure process. My oven is 4'x4'x6' and was $3k, but I got a deal on it for $1k because it was a floor model someone had dropped something and it put a big dent in the front of the door. I could care less what the outside looks like as long as it worked and the dent saved me $2K.

[Lostboy Steve]

Most of the cost of powder coating is in the prep. If you can media blast it yourself, you could then bring it to a shop that is equipped properly to coat a frame.

There are tons of videos and instructables on making your own media blaster. Or you can just grab one from harbor freight for as little as $15.

No reputable shop will give you a discount if you blast it yourself and will reblast again if you bring it that way. There's no telling how many oily hands have touched and left finger prints on it that will play havoc on it later. I've never seen a DIY home blast job that was acceptable for coating. If you want my warranty on it I have to do all the proper prep.

+1 They would rather do it themselves.

[Markcb750]

Two Pages & my "Classic" answer is still correct. 

[Powderman]

Two Pages & my "Classic" answer is still correct. 

Yes, you were correct. But lacking any explanation why. You remind me of my dad when I was young always telling me I "was wrong" but never offering a solution or an explanation why I was wrong. Your answer was as helpful as answering "Is it black or white?" and your answer is "Yes".

[Markcb750]

Really?  Thanks so much for your explanation, it is very clear to me now. 

[Powderman]

Like we needed you to come in after 2 pages to pat yourself on the back for being right. Give your self a cookie.

[Markcb750]

BTW I mean no offense by my posts, I do not normaly go into a lot of detail be cause I know the difference between opinion & fact.


FYI
The guy who paints my frames does $4 to 5 Million in PC work a year.  No offense but I'll take his word as to the best way to prep & paint.  I did not mean to imply he wire brushes the whole frame, I think they clean up with a brush in the tight spots where the burnt paint does not dust off in the wash.  I have seen his guys on weldments with a brush which is the reason I mention it, I considered it attention to detail.  I have never seen a brush mark on his finished work.

Never heard of paint removal process damaging the steel in a frame: steel, particularly the lower carbon alloys used for production frames to speed welding,  will not harden if heated to 8-900 F, there may be some annealing of the welds, which would be stress relieving. However a 30 year old welded structure has stress relieved by virtue of time & vibration already; it will not move. 

I am curious about your temperature anyway, seems high I will have to check with James.

You understand I have been designing, machining, assembling, & testing machine tools made from weldments ranging from 2 to 60,000 lbs for more time than I care to discuss...butthoonose?



Not one of my frames has had any problem with flaking paint.  As I do not use PC for primer I don't worry about a "weak" final finish. 


The pics below are from my 67 CB450 project.

[Powderman]

The only way he is doing $4-$5 million a year is if he is a production powder coating facility and that's the last place I would take any small custom work to. I'm calling bull#$%* on your numbers. What the name of his business? He would have to do $14,000 dollars a day every single day of the year. If he was doing that kind of production there's no way he has time to do any custom work at all, again I call bull#$%* on those numbers.
If he worked 24hr days that's $600 and hour which  means all your parts were prepped and coated for 15 minutes of his time.

[Markcb750]

Call BS all You want.

He does not do "custom" work, he does commercial work.  You understand It is the frame, only requirement is black, a little gloss, durability.  I do the tanks & covers  myself.

 
He makes me wait till he is running black, his guys fit me in. Sometimes they forget, but the price is right.

About 50 people in there in 2011, do not think there are that many now. 4.5M  is 260/man/day;  He runs thin margins always complaining about it.   But hey; maybe he was BSing my employer when we did a qualifying audit to cut him a contract worth 500K over 2 years...

Oh well.

This is my 900 I did 2 years ago, nice paint eh?



 

[Stev-o]

What is the best oil to use in a bike that has a powder coated frame??

[Markcb750]

 

I don't know why I let some people lead me into the dumbest of all things, an internet debate.

But every once in a while they set me off.

And is is a little entertaining ain't it?   

[Retro Rocket]

BTW I mean no offense by my posts, I do not normaly go into a lot of detail be cause I know the difference between opinion & fact.


FYI
The guy who paints my frames does $4 to 5 Million in PC work a year.  No offense but I'll take his word as to the best way to prep & paint.

Mark, that may well be fine for some commercial applications {although i have NEVER seen or used this method}but a motorcycle frame built to stress standards should not be exposed to the high temps  mentioned, Heat treating is how they alter the integrity, one way or the other, of the steel, its a little more complicated than that of course but I would NEVER subject my frame to those temps unless it was done by someone with some knowledge of metallurgy, period. I have also done quite a bit of commercial powdercoating in Aus and NEVER stripped powder with heat, if i remember correctly we had a softening agent that allowed coating over existing powder and another product to remove existing, cured powder, the coating should not be "thick" , modern powders are nothing like the thicker old coatings of the past, you would be surprised at the shear amount of color and types of powder that are available today. I doubt your coater is experienced with things like motorcycle parts, it sure doesn't sound like it.... If you want motorcycle stuff to be coated go to someone who specializes, this is my guy... His father looks after the industrial side of the business....

http://www.robertoscustompowder.com.au/

[Retro Rocket]

What is the best oil to use in a bike that has a powder coated frame??

Possibly baby oil on the right hand....

[tweakin]

What is the best oil to use in a bike that has a powder coated frame??

I usually only run dyno oil in powdercoated frames.

[calj737]

The gentleman who powder coats my bikes preheats the parts after blasting as an added level of insurance to help with the cleaning. He (if I recall/understand correctly) states that preheating them helps with getting 40 years of grease out of certain types of metals.

Don't know whether it's true or not, only can say his work product is very nice.

[Black 750K8]

What is the best oil to use in a bike that has a powder coated frame??

Now don't be asking stupid dumb a$$ question. Anyone who knows anything about powder coat knows it depends on the color. Or is it the day of the week I'll have to get back to you on that. I'v got some more oil to drink  I mean Jim Beam.

[Markcb750]

Hi Retro:  How have you been and where you guys keeping that 777? 

Heat treating steel is a real science, It is taught to us in engineering school and we have to specify it for all kinds of applications, strength, wear resistance, stress relief, annealing for machinability.  I understand it well.  Heat treat is really interesting in the arms manufacturing business. Gun barrels do dangerous things when not heat treated properly. The most interesting I have ever been around is hand tools, a damn 15 dollar spade must bend about 50 degrees and spring back.

It takes a lot of typing to explain why heating steel to 900 degrees will not have significant effect on the structure of low carbon, low alloy steel, I do not know how much I would need to explain, I do not want to take the time.  I can only tell you I am not concerned.

I do know there many wonderful colors, textures, and glosses PC paints can be applied.  I have visited the two custom PC shops within my area, they do nice work.  They quote 300 to 500 to do a frame & swing arm, its not worth it on a frame & brackets, at least to me.

 
I would be interested in what damage you have seen done to a frame by heating it to 800 F , who knows maybe I could learn something, I'm not that old, but as I've said the frames I have had done, no problem.


It is my understanding that many commercial operations burn most weldments & castings before PC to remove contaminates, but I only know the shop that does my frames, he burns almost everything.  I was skeptical at first, but some of the products he does are damn complex, I bought in on my 2nd project bike a 69 CL 450.

[grcamna2]

What is the best oil to use in a bike that has a powder coated frame??

Possibly baby oil on the right hand....

 

[Retro Rocket]

The gentleman who powder coats my bikes preheats the parts after blasting as an added level of insurance to help with the cleaning. He (if I recall/understand correctly) states that preheating them helps with getting 40 years of grease out of certain types of metals.

Don't know whether it's true or not, only can say his work product is very nice.

Heating the tube lets oily residues in the steel loosen up and weep out, usually wiped off with acetone {or similar product}prior to coating, you don't need to get anywhere near 8-900 degrees to do it though....

[Retro Rocket]

I would be interested in what damage you have seen done to a frame by heating it to 800 F , who knows maybe I could learn something, I'm not that old, but as I've said the frames I have had done, no problem.

I haven't seen any, probably because i would never do it. I would be more concerned with the welds and the expansion and contraction of these areas at differing rates {frame to weld},  if you know your metallurgy you'll agree that it is something that could cause a problem..

Like everyone else, no idea on the 777 front.....

[Markcb750]

Can anyone confirm it is necessary to heat a wet painted part to 900 degrees to burn it off?  As i told Powderman  when he stated it I am skeptical of that number. 

Based on using my plastic welder to remove paint I would have thought 4-500 F max, but I don't know.

Retro:
I understand being concerned about heating the frame that high, but think about the fact that the weld bead was several times that when it was formed, and that the heat was locally concentrated. As a weld cools the maximum stress the weld can exert on the parent metal is right after it solidifies and shrinks causing local deformation. 

Oven heating will not introduce much new stress particularly in an oven where welds and tubing are being heated evenly.   It is a common practice to heat weldments well above 900J and allow them to cool slowly in the oven to release stress induced by welding. 

[Powderman]

Commercial/production coating is a completely different animal where the process is a combination of prepping processes that will result in an "acceptable" finish for the , as you say, narrow margin of profit. This can only be done by cutting corners that would be unacceptable for custom work. You won't find many places like that that will media blast the parts for the best adhesion and longest lasting durability. Seldom do these places do work for the end user. And the finish is not usually the show quality that a reputable custom coater can put out.
The heating before cleaning process is called outgassing or burn off cycle. Outgassing is done to cast parts that during the cooling process out of the molds casting debris and gasses get trapped in the pores as they close. When these parts go in the oven to cure these pores open and wreak havoc on the powder surface by creating bubbles and trash in the finish. These parts go in the oven at 450-475*F for an hour so these pores open and purge all this crap and then after it cools the blasting process take place ridding the part of this debris. The higher temps are to ensure that the pores that will open at cure temp will have already opened and purged. Old oily parts whether cast or not are put through this same process to bring to the surface these oils and greases and bake them off and bring them to the surface to be blasted off.
There are literally an endless amount of colors and textures that can be had. One of my suppliers has over 7500 colors in the archives and any color can be made, as well as many textures from wrinkles, crinkles,fine textures, heavy textures. Metallics in many colors. I can 99% match just about any car color on the market.
Properly cured powder is not effected by any oil.

[Markcb750]

As my end thoughts: what process don't y'all think a current Steel framed MC is done to commercial standards? 

Don’t y'all think a modern commercial standard PC is more durable than the original paint the MC manufacture put on a frame?

I know it is not the "best" but it is pretty damn good is my point.

As far as the heat,   The chart below is a good explanation as to why 800 to 900F does not bother me.    the area below the 1300 f line indicates the heat zone where little or no crystal structure is altered.

Understanding this & that the stresses in welds are greatly reduced by vibration & time.   

In the "busness" it is called aging, we can let a weldment or a casting sit out in the weather for a year or two priot to machining, or we can have it stress relieved by heating to 1200 to 1500F then slow cooled, or we can subject it to a vibratory stress release. they all work.

[calj737]

MarkCB - Thanks for the lesson in metallurgy! Now, i can skip going back to university to get my degree. The things we can learn on this forum!

I don't think anyone can dispute your points technically. If I may be so bold, I think the point Powderman might have been making was it wasn't necessary to heat to that level of temperature for high quality powder coat on a motorcycle. There's no disputing in an industrial/commercial application it is needed, but not for motorcycles. Does it harm the frame? Apparently not per your technical documentation. Just not "needed" for these parts.

There's no doubt your contractor knows his business very well, as Powderman knows his very well too. Just different ends of the service spectrum perhaps is the bulk of the misunderstanding.

Enjoy some great weather this weekend (finally)!