Author Topic: Getting closer on charging issue  (Read 2167 times)

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Offline SurfinBird

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Getting closer on charging issue
« on: February 16, 2014, 09:59:33 AM »
'78 CB750F SS
Tested the stator continuity on all, replaced fuses, "new" stock regulator. I'm getting no continuity in any configuration on the rectifier. Before I order a "new" one, what would the symptoms of a bad rectifier be? I'm only getting 12.8V max at the battery, at running temp  4K rpm. Would a functional rectifier help? the 7A fuse and 15A fuse tested as bad, but the bike was still running (no continuity), so those were replace with brand new ones (7/8" not 1", all I could find locally). Any insight would help before I order a functioning used rectifier.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Getting closer on charging issue
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2014, 11:06:28 AM »
'78 CB750F SS
I'm getting no continuity in any configuration on the rectifier.
Be certain you are using a measurement device that provides more than 0.7 volts during the resistance measurement.  The rectifier diodes need this voltage to turn on and conduct in the forward biased direction.  Without enough voltage good ones will show no continuity any any probe configuration.

Most Digital meters will have a selector to measure diodes as part of or separate from the resistance function.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline tlbranth

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Re: Getting closer on charging issue
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2014, 11:09:54 AM »
Call this guy:
http://www.oregonmotorcycleparts.com/index.html
He's very friendly, full of good information and helpful. He talked me through a similar problem and I bought his rectifier which still works fine.
Don't own a Vanagon
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1970 CB750 K0
1975 GL1000
1999 GL1500
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Offline SurfinBird

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Re: Getting closer on charging issue
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2014, 02:50:08 PM »
"new" rectifier and regulator, new fuses, new battery and the stator checks out. Getting better, 12.9v @ 4000rpm, still short of the 14.2v needed. What can I look at next? Maybe it will help to mention the whole problem started with putting to many volts at the battery (15v ish) which led me to fry a gel battery and strt fiddling with the regulator and haven't been right since.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Getting closer on charging issue
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2014, 03:33:10 PM »
Charging system methodical verification checks, CB750, CB550, CB500, CB400, and CB350.

Begin with problem verification and characterization with recorded data.
A -- Fully charge a known good battery.  Let it rest for 2 hours, off the charger, and measure the battery voltage.  (Target is 12.6-12.8V.)
B -- Start the bike and measure the battery voltage at idle, 2000, 3000, 4000, and 5000 rpm.
C -- Repeat the measurements of B with lighting off.

The above tests identify charging system success, failure, or degree of "faulty".  The success voltages are listed in the Shop manual.

D -- Assuming the above indicates faulty, do check the RECTIFIER diodes with a diode tester or ohmmeter capable of testing diodes and uses more than .7 volts to make the test(s).
Of the twelve test made in D, six must read low ohms and six must read very high ohms.

E- assuming no faults were found in D,  Measure the white and green wires disconnected from the REGULATOR.  CB750s should 6.8 ohms - ish,  CB550s/350s/ and 400s should read 4.9 ohms- ish.

F- If there are no bullet holes or road rash/divots on the alternator case, the stator is probably good.  But, you can check for yellow to yellow continuity (.35 ohms) among all the wires, and that no yellow wire has continuity to the engine case.

G- Assuming no faults found in D, E, and F, measure the disconnected terminals of the REGULATOR.  The black and white terminals should measure zero ohms (subtract meter error if there is any).  Higher than Zero ohms, indicates internal contact contamination needing cleaning and attention per shop manual.

H - Assuming D, E, F, and G have not found faults. We can verify all the of the charging system minus the regulator is functioning correctly, by using a temporary jumper to connect the disconnected white wire (normally attached to the REGULATOR) and connecting the White directly to the the battery POS terminal.  Repeat the B and C tests.  However, if at any time the battery voltage rises above 15V, stop the test.  Such an indication would prove the charging system capable of maintaining a known good battery.  If this test never achieves 15V, then there is a wire/connector issue in either the ground path leading back to the battery NEG terminal, a wiring/ connector issue withe the rectifier RED path to the battery POS terminal, or you made a mistake in D through G.

I - (not used, can be confused with L)

J -  The only parts that remain to prove or expose are the REGULATOR (in active mode) and the electrical path between the battery POS terminal and the black wire that connects to the REGULATOR.

K - Lying to and starving the regulator
The regulator can only do its job correctly if it gets a proper voltage report of true battery voltage status.  The Vreg monitors the Black wire for this status.  Measuring the voltage lost between the Battery terminals and the Vreg connections identifies problems that are not really the charging system's fault.
Two connection paths must be checked, the Battery POS terminal to the Black wire connection at the VReg, and the Battery NEG terminal to the Green wire connection to the Vreg.  A volt meter can measure these losses directly by placing a probe between the two identified points, Black path and then the green path.  The numbers are summed and the error seen by the Vreg quantified.  Anything over .5V loss is cause for concern and anything over 1V is a certain issue to be corrected.  Each connector, terminal, fuse clip, or switch in the pathway can cause voltage reporting loss.

The regulator also passes the received voltage on to to the Alternator field coil to create a magnetic field within the alternator,  The voltage level determines the strength of the magnetic field and the maximum output capability of the alternator.  Therefore, starving  the Vreg of true battery voltage leads to reduced max output capability of the alternator.

L - regulator operation/verification.
  The Vreg sends voltage to the alternator field in response to measured voltage which is battery state of charge.  Any voltage at the battery of less than 13.5V sends full black wire voltage to the alternator's white wire.  The alternator output will vary with RPM, even if "told" to produce max power by the Vreg.  If the alternator has enough RPM to overcome system load, any excess power is routed to the battery which will raise the battery voltage (slowly if depleted and rapidly if nearly full).   When the battery reaches 14.5V, the regulator reduces the voltage to the alternator, reducing output strength and preventing battery overcharge.  If the battery exceeds 14.7V, the regulator clamps the alternator field coil power to zero (0V), effective shutting off the alternator.

Because, there is electrical load from the system, an alternator that is not producing power allows the battery to deplete and the voltage falls.  The Vreg responds by turning the alternator back on in accordance with battery state/ charge level.

The Vreg state changes can be monitored/verified by observing the battery voltage state, and the White wire to the alternator field.  (Two meters are handy for this.)  The "trip" voltages can be adjusted with the adjust screw, while changing engine RPM and electrical load that the bike presents to the battery/charging system to "make" the battery reach the voltage levels need for the set trip points.  IE. with load reduced (lighting off) and the engine above 2500 RPM, a charged battery will attain 14.5 V.  Anything above that and the adjust screw needs to be backed out to keep the battery safe from harm.
The shop manual outlines bench set up mechanical adjustments that should be performed on unknown or tampered units.  These should be resolved before final trip point adjust tuning.

Note that while the system is working, the Vreg can change states rapidly before your very eyes., changing 5 times or more while you blink.  Therefore, you may have to mentally average values measured on the White wire if your selected meter doesn't do that for you.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline 750K

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Re: Getting closer on charging issue
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2014, 03:51:05 PM »
Thanks TT, I have a charging issue to trace as well once the weather warms up.
77 Cb750, 78 Kz1000

Offline SurfinBird

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Re: Getting closer on charging issue
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2014, 09:53:43 PM »
So going through and checking again here are my results, looks like one yellow wire from the stator has no continuity. Do I need to replace or should I look for something on the stator or the wires? I posted the values to see if I'm coming up bad on anything else.

D -- Assuming the above indicates faulty, do check the RECTIFIER diodes with a diode tester or ohmmeter capable of testing diodes and uses more than .7 volts to make the test(s).
Of the twelve test made in D, six must read low ohms and six must read very high ohms.

YELLOW TO RED (+ on red) 1) .29, 2) 16.1 then flashes to O/L, 3) .36
YELLOW TO RED (- on red) 1) 53.3, 2) 39.9, 3) 66.4
GREEN TO YELLOW (+ on green) 1) 36, 2) 56.1, 3) 66.4
GREEN TO YELLOW (- on green) 1) O/L 2) .32, 3) .34

E- assuming no faults were found in D,  Measure the white and green wires disconnected from the REGULATOR.  CB750s should 6.8 ohms - ish,  CB550s/350s/ and 400s should read 4.9 ohms- ish.

8.2 ohms

F- If there are no bullet holes or road rash/divots on the alternator case, the stator is probably good.  But, you can check for yellow to yellow continuity (.35 ohms) among all the wires, and that no yellow wire has continuity to the engine case.

Continuity checked with sound, continuity good between 3 of the 4 yellow wires, none on one to any of the other 3 yellow wires

G- Assuming no faults found in D, E, and F, measure the disconnected terminals of the REGULATOR.  The black and white terminals should measure zero ohms (subtract meter error if there is any).  Higher than Zero ohms, indicates internal contact contamination needing cleaning and attention per shop manual.

0 ohms

Offline SurfinBird

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Re: Getting closer on charging issue
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2014, 10:09:29 PM »
After reading through some posts, i'm not sure my stator is bad. I have 7 wires, 4 of which are yellowish, Between 3 of them I have continuity in all configs. The 4th light yellow? looking one I have no continuity. The other wires are colored with a red stripe. No continuity between any of the 3 yellow wire and the other wires.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Getting closer on charging issue
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2014, 03:21:01 AM »
SOHC4s have a 3 phase stator.  Which means there were only 3 yellow wires from the factory.

A white wire would be the Field coil, which may have yellowed with age and oil staining.  Green is a case ground.
There should be two remaining wires LG/R (neutral switch) and B/R (oil switch).  Neither of these have much to do with the charging system.

It's best to know what wires you are measuring.  And the wire diagram in the Honda shop manual is most helpful.

I can't make sense of your measurement reports.  Best to tell us what meter brand and model you are using and what setting you have made on it's function selector.  Or, post a clear picture of it's front side.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline SurfinBird

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Re: Getting closer on charging issue
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2014, 07:09:29 AM »
Thanks TwoTired
Here is the exact one i have, I am using the resistance setting for the #'s i'm getting and the continuity for the stator test (which I found out about the 3 yellow and one "white", all 3 show continuity). Have I been using it wrong? I am terrible with electrical. I have the RED lead in the low current socket, and the BLACK in the ground.

Offline Bodi

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Re: Getting closer on charging issue
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2014, 11:22:30 AM »
When you're checking the rectifier, you're testing diodes... so us the "diode check" function. This should indicate the voltage between the probes on a good diode connected "forward" - ie conducting electricity. When "reverse" it should read the same as with the probes not touching.
Diodes are not perfect "one way valves", and have a characteristic forward voltage drop when conducting electricity one way. Different diode types have different forward voltages.
A good diode will read around 0.5V forward and as no connection the other way. A bad diode can read 0 volts both ways or open circuit both ways.
So with one probe on any yellow wire on the rectifier should measure around 0.5 with the other probe on the red wire and as no connection with the probe on ground (or the reverse - what is important is you get opposite readings). Swapping the probe on the yellow wire should get the same readings but opposite to the first way. There are two diodes connected to each yellow wire, both need to be good!

You should end up with a reading set like this: (could be reversed depending on meter polarity)

black probe on yellow:
        to ground    to red
yel 1     .5             open
yel 2     .5             open
yel 3     .5             open

red probe on yellow:
        to ground    to red
yel 1     open         .5
yel 2     open         .5
yel 3     open         .5


« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 11:25:48 AM by Bodi »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Getting closer on charging issue
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2014, 11:39:34 AM »
Here is the exact one i have, I am using the resistance setting for the #'s i'm getting and the continuity for the stator test (which I found out about the 3 yellow and one "white", all 3 show continuity). Have I been using it wrong? I am terrible with electrical. I have the RED lead in the low current socket, and the BLACK in the ground.
Use the Diode check setting when checking the rectifier (disconnected from bike).
The resistance setting can be used to measure the resistance of coil windings or other non-active devices  (semi-condictors are active devices).
Place probe tips together and note display, then subtract that value from any low ohms reading you make thereafter.

Bodi's post accurately shows what to expect.  Although I usually see .6-.7V for active diode readings and ∞ for reverse biased devices.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline SurfinBird

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Re: Getting closer on charging issue
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2014, 12:56:38 PM »
Thanks guys, i'll recheck the rectifier again tonight, did the other numbers look ok, specifically the 8.3 ohms on the regulator? F and G look like they are ok, correct?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Getting closer on charging issue
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2014, 04:02:35 PM »
Thanks guys, i'll recheck the rectifier again tonight, did the other numbers look ok, specifically the 8.3 ohms on the regulator? F and G look like they are ok, correct?

You should have measured the White and green wires disconnected from the regulator.  8.3Ω is reasonable enough for that.

The regulator isn't checked until step G.  There is no 8.3Ω measurement for that device.

Sorry the step by step guide I posted doesn't make any sense to you.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline SurfinBird

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Re: Getting closer on charging issue
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2014, 04:14:05 PM »
Thanks Two, no apologizes needed, i am completely clueless with this stuff (clearly). I should have said the wires for the regulator read 8.2, not the regulator.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Getting closer on charging issue
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2014, 04:20:30 PM »
Thanks Two, no apologizes needed, i am completely clueless with this stuff (clearly). I should have said the wires for the regulator read 8.2, not the regulator.

 ???

Glad THAT'S cleared up....    :-\
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline SurfinBird

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Re: Getting closer on charging issue
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2014, 08:18:33 PM »
Here are my new readings

red probe on yellow:
        to ground            to red
yel 1     open   o.l      .5  .471
yel 2     open   o.l       .5 .462
yel 3     open   o.l      .5 .476

black probe on yellow:
        to ground           to red
yel 1     .5 .483            open o.l
yel 2     .5 .482            open o.l
yel 3     .5 .457            open o.l

If these are all in range my next option would be the jumper wire, i'm guessing I can put a connector on the jumper and connect it to the  WHITE regulator wire (which is usually connected to the REGULATOR) and run the other end to the POS side of the battery. I've never done this, what type of wire should I get? I don't have any lying around.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Getting closer on charging issue
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2014, 11:08:51 PM »
It only has to carry 2A max.  18Ga insulated wire should work.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline SurfinBird

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Re: Getting closer on charging issue
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2014, 01:20:27 PM »
All I could get was 14Ga, stranded from Home Depot, will that work? It said it was rated to 15A

Should the BLACK and GREEN wires still be connected to the REGULATOR in step H?

For step K, is the bike running? What do you mean by summed? Do I do a reading of the battery, then add the two readings from the wires  and subtract from the voltage reading  at the battery?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Getting closer on charging issue
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2014, 04:05:45 PM »
All I could get was 14Ga, stranded from Home Depot, will that work? It said it was rated to 15A
yes

Should the BLACK and GREEN wires still be connected to the REGULATOR in step H?
Doesn't matter for the test at that step.  But the black wire is hot when the Key switch is on.  It should either be connected or insulated from touching a frame component, or you'll be replacing blown fuses.

For step K, is the bike running?
Not necessary. OK if it is.   But, the key and light switches should be on, in order to load the wiring.

What do you mean by summed?

summed - definition of summed by the Free Online Dictionary ...
a. An amount obtained as a result of adding numbers.

Do I do a reading of the battery, then add the two readings from the wires  and subtract from the voltage reading  at the battery?
That would be the harder way.

A. Place one probe on the Battery POS terminal and the black probe on the Vreg Black terminal while all the bikes' circuitry is connected and operating.
B. Place one probe on the Battery NEG terminal and the other on the Vreg Green terminal.

Add A and B to find out if the Vreg is operating on a different voltage than what is actually at the battery during run conditions.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline SurfinBird

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Re: Getting closer on charging issue
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2014, 05:22:42 PM »
I went to try the white jumper wire to the POS post of the battery, but neglected to re-connect the rectifier (may or may not have affected anything, you tell me). Well....lots of smoke and melted green wire insulator, thought the bike was going to burn to the ground. Now, who wants to tell me:

A) How big an an idiot am I?
B) What did I damage?
C) Can I just replace the green wire and start testing all over again?

I unwrapped the wire harness all the way back to where it bolts into the frame. From what I can see the only damage was to the green wire leading to the REGULATOR. There is melted plastic on the other wires, but it doesn't look like any of the other wires are showing copper. Can I just replace the green wire? It looks simple enough. However, it looks like where the green wire splits and goes A) to the frame and B) to the front of the bike (IMAGE 1), the wires were just twisted together and wrapped in electrical tape. It doesn't look like the frying continued on towards the headlight bucket. Also, where the wire splits under the battery it goes A) to the REGULATOR B) towards a relay, but isn't connected to anything and C) under the seat (IMAGE 2), it is also twisted together and branches off. Are these correct? Can I just replace the GREEN wire or should I bite the bullet and buy a new harness?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Getting closer on charging issue
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2014, 02:47:31 PM »
The whole point of powering the white wire directly is to prove that the charging system works without the regulator limiting its output.
It's hard for me to imagine why you would think the charging system would work without the rectifier converting AC power to DC power that the battery can use to restore a charge.  To me this is like starting the on-site build of a house with the roof, and then adding the foundation later on.

If you fried some wires, you will have to repair or replace what has been damaged.   I have encountered the damage you've described on bikes and just replaced the damaged wires in the harness with those from a donor harness.  I used solder and shrink wrap to connect the replacements to the remaining good wires.  I also understand what I am doing.  So, it is difficult for me to recommend you do the same, although I would expect you to be physically capable.  The harness does normally have internal wires twisted together, soldered, and taped from the factory, as the green routing branches to many point on the bike.

It would appear you are well beyond your depth and comprehension of even minor matters regarding the repair of your bike.  You need a sacrificial test mule to practice on and not care about it's survival.  Or, some in-person training, to keep you from damage to the bike or yourself.  I don't think I can give you sufficient help via forum postings, to insure proper supervision.

I can and have given you data and a basic process.  But, I am not prepared to hand hold your every motion or movement toward an effective diagnosis and repair.   While I do favor those that wish to learn and teach themselves, a rudimentary maintenance approach is always assumed.  Not intended as an insult, but none of my instructions were intended for a 5 year knowledge level understanding of physics, and I have no idea what level of knowledge or training you currently possess.

Since it appears you are making matters worse with your current attention to detail, I'm going to recommend you seek in-person help or pay someone else to return your bike to a serviceable state.

I am not trying to be mean or condescending.  Just trying to asses reality.  There are very few 10 year olds that should be allowed to assemble explosive ordinance, even if under supervision.  I would want them wiring my house either, until proven they understand and adhere to safe and recommended practices.

I wish you the best of luck.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.