Topic: 9-11, Homeland Security, paranoia, dissolved civil rights What Have we Gained?

[ElCheapo]

I have to write this even though there are several 9-11 threads on the boards at this time. I will not go down the conspiracy theories and I would appreciate if others did not do so in this thread. If you can keep your response to what we have gained if anything. I am trying to be responsible as I know many read some of my stuff and take it seriously. While this is a serious manner, no need for anyone to get nasty here.

Many times in our history we equate deaths in a conflict of any sort = some level of good for the whole.

As I watch all this crap on TV about 9-11, I become more infuriated. They say that 9-11 was some major turning point in our history. I say bull#$%*. With the death toll at 2973 on 9-11 and 2999 in Iraq to date they have died or nothing in my opinion. Nothing in our country has improved. We still have a raging unemployment, poverty, hunger, and homelessness that is long out of control. We do not enjoy better security or a better economy. Aside from death and a major economic disaster, what have we gotten from this? We do not even enjoy better education, as funds are cut again and again from AP courses in high schools across the country.

Don’t tell me, more secure airlines. I flew only a few months ago and I can tell you I did not feel more secure, I felt more harassed. I am dark skinned of Mexican, Native American, and Polish decent with a beard and I guess the act that I was dressed like an ALL-AMERICAN BIKER did not help things. I was sent to secondary inspection each time I was on the flight. The only saving grace was the fact that I had my USMC Veteran patch on my coat. Otherwise they would have continued to harass me.

My question is what have we gained if anything? I know it is not more freedom. I was nearly arrested as possible terrorist threat because I had a camera near a USMC recruiting office. Doing this has gained them nothing. Did this harassment stop some bombing? No.

We have elaborate spending when it comes to the war and the staggering multi million dollar cost of a freak’in memorial.  We build this huge memorial and no money is spent to better our country or our relationships with other countries in the world? I am not saying that there should not be such a memorial. But I see things like some lady burning up piles of cash making some memorial for her son on some hill. When it is all said and done, what does it do? Nothing, not a damn thing. Does it help anyone? No, it does not. Maybe her money would have been better spent changing the world starting right in her own community fighting hunger. No matter how small our communities are there is a nagging hunger problem. A soup kitchen could have used those funds to make things better for many people. Maybe even fund some employment training to get people back to work, even if in just remedial work to pay for a place to live while they become further educated towards being a productive member of society.

[Bob Wessner]

and the staggering multi million dollar cost of a freak’in memorial.

I don't know if it will ease your mind any, but the funding for the 9/11 memorial (assuming your are referring to that) will be raised privately.

[ElCheapo]

I do understand that, Bob. But when we are done building this privately or otherwise, the money that was spent that could seriously change the course of our country as a whole and eventually the world. If used correctly.

Maybe I am too .... I don't know.... But I just think the money could be better spent and leave a legacy that all families that lost someone that day and since would have something to be very proud of.

They would be given a chance to change the world.

 

I'll shut up now and soak in the responses as I am sure some of them will be heated. No offense meant guys.

[Bob Wessner]

There are times when I think the entire government (both parties by the way) have showed themselves to be one trick ponies when it comes to "The War on Terrorism." There is a country of 300,000,000 people that need other things as well. Seems to me, whatever defenses are necessary should simply be a part of the new life fabric of the nation. I just hope it goes better than "The War on Drugs" or "The War on Crime." As for the memorial, those folks died under some very unique and startlingly tragic circumstances. I don't have a problem with the memorial and I'm sure their loved ones would not like to see them forgotten. It would be up to each donor to decide if they agree or not, or they would prefer to donate money to some other cause.. or not at all. <steps down from soapbox>

[nickjtc]

Memorials are just that: a way of not letting anyone forget what happened. Witness the Cenotaphs all over the west. I agree that there should be some restraint with the cost, bacause a memorial does not change the fact that what happened, happened.

I also agree that the biggest challenge with 'the war on......(pick your favourite negative thing here)' is that in this day and age it is going to cost a lot of money. So the powers-that-be had better be sure that the road they are taking their country down is the right one.

After the Falklands 'conflict', which to me was just a vehicle for getting Maggie Thatcher re-elected, the British Government would have been just as far ahead if they had given the Islanders 1,000,000 pounds EACH and told them to get on with it.

[Gordon]

I think the value of any memorial is entirely up to future generations.  Is it viewed as simply a way to remember the people who were lost in whatever war or tragedy that happened, or is it taken as a message from the past to not repeat the mistakes that were made that led up to the memorialized event? 

[Jonesy]

George Carlin was absolutely correct when he said that Americans are always willing to trade away more of their freedom for the feeling and illusion of safety. I agree, Cheapo. this is what's happening.

I think the value of any memorial is entirely up to future generations. Is it viewed as simply a way to remember the people who were lost in whatever war or tragedy that happened, or is it taken as a message from the past to not repeat the mistakes that were made that led up to the memorialized event?

I agree. I hope it serves to remind future generations, as the saying goes "If we do learn from history, we are bound to repeat it."

As for the original question, I don't really think the country as a whole has had any huge improvements. For a brief period of time after the attacks, everyone seemed to be able to put things into true perspective, as to what was really important in life. Fast forward to now, we are back to the old ways and probably more divisive than ever. This bothers me. This article kinda gets at what I'm trying to say: http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5953886?FSO1&ATT=HMA

[tsp37]

"We still have a raging unemployment, poverty, hunger, and homelessness that is long out of control."  Dude, that is horse#$%*.  America's big problems are obesity, too much credit card debt, obsene houses with outrageous mortages, and a population that is getting too old to finance its welfare state. This applies, at least in part, to much of the western world..  Since when is 4% unemployment "raging"?  Get your head out of your ass and look around you.  You'll find that it's much easier to ride that way, too.

[ElCheapo]

"We still have a raging unemployment, poverty, hunger, and homelessness that is long out of control." Dude, that is horse#$%*. America's big problems are obesity, too much credit card debt, obsene houses with outrageous mortages, and a population that is getting too old to finance its welfare state. This applies, at least in part, to much of the western world.. Since when is 4% unemployment "raging"? Get your head out of your ass and look around you. You'll find that it's much easier to ride that way, too.

Head in ass? Know your facts when you come at me douche bag and definitely know them before you attack me. I did not start this F'IN thread to be attacked by the ill-educated. I guess they did not cover reading when you went to skool. "Is are childrens learn'in?"

Sounds like you stuck your head up your ass along time ago and somehow it swelled and is stuck permanently there.

Know your facts before you spout, I know this as I have been there and it became clear that the only reason the number is going down is because people on it have exhausted thier beniefits and just are no longer counted. And for reference, loosing that $16 an hour job and then being "employed" by Wal-Mart as a greeter for $8.00 an hour just does not count. We send thousands of jobs overseas because of cost effect labor, and then have our people work at Wal-Mart. Sounds like you would pass the greeter exam, go get'em..

Obscene houses? Look man the fact is 5% of the people make more than 50% of the money. So if they have obscene houses then they deserve to die under a hefty mortgage.

Naturally you are too dumb to stick to the facts. Maybe if we left it in your hands we would do things like set up 3,000 solid f'in gold toilets in ground zero. You are too stupid to pay any attention to, and I will not in the future. Post if you like, but you are just not educated enough to respond to in the future.

When you get your head out of your ass, I'll help you get geared up to go play in the sand box. Sounds like you're eager and ready. The US military always needs new souls with one foot on a landmine.

USMC GySgt
Scout Sniper
EOD
Thomas Neubauer

[Bob Wessner]

The "Open Forum" is for discussion about anything and everything. It does not include doing so via name calling. Let's keep it gentlemanly, shall we?

[BobbyR]

We are a Nation which lost it’s direction at the end of WWII. Before that we were an industrial power, with a fairly minimal Military. Then we became a military superpower and it all went to #$%*. War is stupid on all levels. Yes, I want the 9/11 killers and their followers taken out, but that is best done systematically, purposefully and covertly, not by invading and trying to occupy a whole country you are not wanted. Wasting Billions of dollars, that could be used on education, healthcare, infrastructure and job creation.
We also lost our vision as a people. About 20% of the population has a Bachelors Degree, and if you look at our Colleges, foreign students make up a large percentage. Why do they come here, because the Colleges are better here. I work for a Japanese company. They send their kids to College here.
In this area, we have a lot of Latin Americans that have moved in. They stood on corners looking for day work, now a lot of them now own their own businesses. This new crop is living the American dream, which was upward mobility.
Americans have become lazy, we don’t pay attention to who we elect or hold them accountable. We don’t value education; we don’t have the immigrant mentality our forefathers did. It took balls to get on a boat and come to a strange place where you did not speak the language.
Governments are made up of people, and people want power and they will take it if you give it to them. If you look at the Constitution, it is about protecting the people from the government. It was written that way on purpose. Each year we give up a bit of that freedom by having small groups pick away at the parts they don’t like. If you believe in the Constitution, you take it as a full document. If you don’t like guns, don’t buy one. You don’t like freedom of speech, don’t listen. If you don’t want your emails scanned, stand up and vote some bastards out. If you don’t like abortion, don’t have one. If you don’t like sex, don’t have it (and get some help). America should be a place you can be left alone to do what you want as long as you are not hurting some one else.

[gasguzler]

With the death toll at 2973 on 9-11 and 2999 in Iraq to date they have died or nothing in my opinion. Nothing in our country has improved.

I think the death toll is much higher than that. This is not meant to be an attack so please don't machete me down for this, but Americans seem to count their own souls as being worth so much more than those with different passports. Why is that? That's part of the problem IMO.

We can't lose sight of the fact that there's been so many deaths, American, Canadian, Iraqi, Afghani, and otherwise in the aftermath of 9/11, I wonder how many of them were necessary. I don't know its just sad, men.

[ElCheapo]

Gasguzler:
The death toll numbers were the ones that the news was willing to quote as of last night. I am sure they are higher also. I think those numbers were from CBS. I do agree with you on the souls value thing. No matter where your passport is from, you are a life just the same no matter where you are from. A tragedy is a tragedy no matter where it happens.

BobbyR:
Thanks for the honest thought and time you put into your post. Shows you have some intelligence.  I am still soaking it all in.

[tsflstb]

Americans have become lazy, we don’t pay attention to who we elect or hold them accountable. We don’t value education; we don’t have the immigrant mentality our forefathers did. It took balls to get on a boat and come to a strange place where you did not speak the language.

Well said.  The "I'm an American and I'm entitled to all kinds of #$%*" mentality is going to be the downfall of this country.  Technology has made us incredibly lazy and our work ethic and general intellect is on the decline.  We could all take a lesson from the enterprising immigrants that we're #$%*ing about so loudly today.  We have so much.  So much stuff, so much food, so much electricity and running water.  We have every opportunity to better our own situation if we feel we need to.  I'm amazed people are still #$%*ing.  

I live in a house with a roof that doesn't leak and a floor that's not dirt.  I also have air conditioning.  I'm typing #$%* on a computer.  This probably puts me in a better place than 85% of the world's population.  I feel honored but ashamed that brave men fight and die so that I can live a posh life.

[ElCheapo]

I think the US is the only country that flushes its toilets with drinkable water? 

[nickjtc]

I think the US is the only country that flushes its toilets with drinkable water? 

We do too, here in Canada. We also water our lawns and wash our cars with it................

[ElCheapo]

I think the US is the only country that flushes its toilets with drinkable water? 

We do too, here in Canada. We also water our lawns and wash our cars with it................

Seems like a silly thing to do doesn't it? 

[upperlake04]

I think the US is the only country that flushes its toilets with drinkable water?  Huh

are you serious man?    who would have thought...

[Klark Kent]

"They say that 9-11 was some major turning point in our history. I say bull#$%*. "

its looking more and more like a turningpoint every day- like our very own reichstag fire. 

and the televised "memorialization" we were inundated with yesterday felt more like exploitation and fetishization once primetime rolled around.
-KK

[nickjtc]

I think the US is the only country that flushes its toilets with drinkable water? 

We do too, here in Canada. We also water our lawns and wash our cars with it................

Seems like a silly thing to do doesn't it? 

The real silliness is that our city council voted to build a multi million dollar water treatment plant, knowing that 90% of the 'purified' water would end up not being consumed! They could have given every household drinking water for a fraction of the cost.

[Bob Wessner]

I think the US is the only country that flushes its toilets with drinkable water? 

We do too, here in Canada. We also water our lawns and wash our cars with it................

Seems like a silly thing to do doesn't it? 

The real silliness is that our city council voted to build a multi million dollar water treatment plant, knowing that 90% of the 'purified' water would end up not being consumed! They could have given every household drinking water for a fraction of the cost.

Think about the infrastructure costs to deliver both potable and non-potable water to each household.

[nickjtc]

Think about the infrastructure costs to deliver both potable and non-potable water to each household.

Most of us in town have been buying drinking water for quite a while since some 'boil water' alerts a few years ago. There are several water purification businesses in town, who produce potable water for very nominal cost. Even with our new plant the water is heavily chlorinated, and therefore an 'acquired' taste. I personally would much rather have had drinking water at a, possibly, subsidised cost, than had to pay out for the cost of the treatment plant.

It's done now so no use in whining I suppose!

[Bob Wessner]

Interesting, thanks for clarifying the circumstances.

[Rocking-M]

Here's my reasons for conspiracy thoughts, I must offer them since I have been so labled.

I don't trust the government, I look at it from a historical perspective.
And I go back to the revolution for my perspective.
The Articles of Confederation were the best form of general government and they should have
never been replaced with the CONstitution. I hope I would have been astute enough
to have agreed with Patrick Henry then and smelled the rat in the new constitution.
It granted to much power to the general government and allowed for what was to follow
in a sense, since a power hungry president could then usurp more if he so desired.
Here comes Lincoln, who brought on his War of Northern Aggression, which changed our
government forever from a decentralized government to a centralized one.
One our founders never intended even with the constitution (by that I mean the federalist of that
day would be appalled at what we have today, needless to say Jefferson would be fomenting revolution).

Now in recent history, there were the pension protest with veterans killed by the government,
there has been a president who allowed Pearl Harbor to gain support for his war efforts,
there has been the murders at Ruby Ridge,
there has been the mass murder at Waco,
(I have some first hand knowledge of Ruby Ridge and Waco)
there was the burning murders in Philadelphia.

The above were bl antant disregards for the rights of these people and perputrated by the government.

And then I am asked to believe that Timothy McVeigh blew up OK with a home made fertiliser bum (i didn't use the other b word so
y'all won't get on the list I have had some dealings with fertiliser in this scenario and know what it can do.
I have also read some SAS reports that said that it is not possible to set off 2 tons at once but only through
carefully timed multi-bums can that quantity be made to blow. And then outside a building there is no
way it should have had the effect it did. And why were all the big wigs out that day.

Now I've been asked to believe that a wanna be pilot flew a descending spiral from high altitude
and pinpointed a building. Once might be a fluke, but twice. The difficulty of this has been
examined by some seasoned Airliner Pilots. Maybe our pilots on here can convince me of the simplicity of
such a maneuver. (Also, miraculously the plastic id's of these flyer's was saved when the black box was lost).

Now I could post articles which offer insight into my questions (conspiracy theories as some call them).
But I doubt these would be read and probably wouldn't change any minds if they were.

All the above, if it happened as I suspect or not, would not have happened had the correct checks on our general government  been in place. We would not have been inviting the chickens we turned out to come home to roost. Bin Laden would not have his legitimate gripe with the uS. (Would I fill him full of holes as Noel proposed should he appear in my home? If he were peaceable in my home I would hope not, no more than I would hope to have shot Sitting Bull or Geronimo in their day.)  Back to my point, the correct balance of power in the general government would have negated a lot of what has happened in our last 100 years.
The correct balance is not the separation of powers as we have been taught since grade school. The correct balance, I like, check on  the general government better, was to be the States. The States were to reject whatever was an usurpation by the general government, including power grabbing by the presidents we have had. This truth died at Appomattox and we have what we have.

Which brings me by a long route to Cheepo's questions about fixing what is wrong at home.
This to was never to be the governments role. This should be done on the community level.
But communities nor individuals rarely do this anymore. Why? They accept the current believe that
the government should fix everything. Why? Because the government has taken on that role to
gain access to our liberties. The 14th amendment allowed this and made us all serfs to the government.
(It was unconstitutionally passed and should be booted our of the bill of rights, the bill of rights being
put in the constitution to further clarify were the boundaries were for the general government, not to
grant rights to the real sovereigns, the people of the several States.) Since that time, the people
have thought that everytime they feel wronged the government must step in and fix it.
And, the rest of us have pretty much thought "it's not our place to step in and help" the government
should fix it.

I've rambled enough.

[nickjtc]

And then I am asked to believe that Timothy McVeigh blew up OK with a home made fertiliser bum (i didn't use the other b word so
y'all won't get on the list I have had some dealings with fertiliser in this scenario and know what it can do.
I have also read some SAS reports that said that it is not possible to set off 2 tons at once but only through
carefully timed multi-bums can that quantity be made to blow. And then outside a building there is no
way it should have had the effect it did. And why were all the big wigs out that day.

Now I've been asked to believe that a wanna be pilot flew a descending spiral from high altitude
and pinpointed a building. Once might be a fluke, but twice. The difficulty of this has been
examined by some seasoned Airliner Pilots. Maybe our pilots on here can convince me of the simplicity of
such a maneuver. (Also, miraculously the plastic id's of these flyer's was saved when the black box was lost).

Maybe I'm missing something in your post. Are you suggesting that some other agency than Timothy McVeigh did the bombing in OK? Also are you suggesting that it wasn't terrorists flying the planes into the WTC?? If so, who do you think were the perpetrators? Just curious.