Author Topic: New brake master question  (Read 3438 times)

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Offline andy8190

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New brake master question
« on: March 22, 2014, 09:01:30 AM »
So I bought a new master cylinder and think I have it completely bled with all the air out but I'm not sure because when I pull the lever in I do not get hardly any resistance. The front brake seems to grab well but I just don't feel much resistance at all at the handle. The master has a bore of 12.7mm would this be the cause?


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Offline flybox1

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Re: New brake master question
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2014, 09:25:45 AM »
No resistance mostly likely is the remaining air bubbles.  Keep bleeding.
If you don't have a speed bleeder, keep pumping fluid out the caliper bleed hole during the day.  At night, rubber-band your brake lever to the handle, put the bike on the side stand, and turn the wheel to the left.  This will allow bubbles to rise into the MC cup during the night. Tap on all brake line connections to help loosen the stuck bubbles.
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Offline andy8190

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Re: New brake master question
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2014, 09:28:25 AM »
I did that last night and it wasn't much better this morning. I am going to get a pump bleeder in a bit and see if that will help


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Offline andy8190

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Re: New brake master question
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2014, 09:29:25 AM »
Just don't understand bc there is really good grabbing of the piston it seems


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Offline Bodi

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Re: New brake master question
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2014, 10:17:03 AM »
First, I have to call foul on the rubber band thing. It accomplishes nothing. Adding pressure into the brake system with the rubber band will cause air bubbles to shrink - and be less likely to float up through the lines.
Bubbles will float to the highest point they can reach... but they won't float down. Some air gets trapped in the caliper cylinder, the switch tee, and anywhere a brake line doubles back downwards.
Normal bleeding by pumping fluid through using the master cylinder is better than nothing but can leave air in these traps because the short pulses of fluid flow allow bubbles to float back up after being moved down a bit.
Pressure or vacuum bleeding moves a relatively large volume of fluid down through the brake lines at relatively high velocity, hopefully flushing any air out. You need a pressure/vacuum bleeder, and it can use a lot of brake fluid.
Reverse bleeding is similar to pressure bleeding but it goes from caliper to m/c. This moves bubbles upwards, in the general direction they want to float anyway.
It's pretty easy. You pump the removed caliper piston most of the way out, then squeeze it back in fairly quickly and flush any bubbles back up the reservoir. There are cautions - brake fluid can really spray out of the reservoir... and it eats paint. The reservoir can overflow if you aren't careful with how much fluid you add.
In my experience the results are equal to pressure bleeding. You can do it yourself and avoid buying a pressure bleeder or paying to have it done.
The difference - for me - between the best "normal" bleeding I could do and reverse bleeding was night-and-day: very solid lever feel rather than mushy.

Your issue might not be from air in the system. You don't indicate what "grab well" means. If, squeezing as hard as you can, you can get the lever to the bar: something is wrong! If you can do a good maximum braking panic stop from speed without the lever hitting the bar, the brake is working passably. If your idea of "grab well" is not from a road test: do a road test. You can't guess braking strength otherwise.

Offline andy8190

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Re: New brake master question
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2014, 10:29:25 AM »
Sounds like a good idea. I can try that later today when I get home. My tank isn't painted yet so that isn't something I worry bout


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Offline lucky

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Re: New brake master question
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2014, 10:30:17 AM »
If you look down inside of the master cylinder resevoir you will see two holes.
The small hole is the air bleed hole.
Often this hole is clogged and will not permit you to bleed the master cylinder.
You will need to take a small wire or very small drill bit and twist it by hand until the hole is cleared out. It is a common problem.
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« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 10:32:56 AM by lucky »

Offline andy8190

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Re: New brake master question
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2014, 10:31:09 AM »
No they both aren't clogged. It's a brand new master


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Offline andy8190

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New brake master question
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2014, 10:32:33 AM »
I got my oem one to
work well but it had a leak so I bought this one and it's being a #$%* to bleed


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Offline Stev-o

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Re: New brake master question
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2014, 11:28:18 AM »
I had a real b!tch of a time bleeding my RD350 after putting a new caliper on, bought this power bleeder and 15 min later I was good.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Reverse-Pressure-Brake-Clutch-Bleeder-/271426486191?pt=Motors_Aviation_Parts_Gear&hash=item3f32477faf


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Offline andy8190

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Re: New brake master question
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2014, 11:39:49 AM »
I am going to see if I can find a large syringe to do this with. I don't think I will be able to find one of those locally but yes that is what I'm thinking


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Offline LesterPiglet

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Re: New brake master question
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2014, 01:24:23 PM »
First, I have to call foul on the rubber band thing. It accomplishes nothing. Adding pressure into the brake system with the rubber band will cause air bubbles to shrink - and be less likely to float up through the lines.
So the many times I've done it, it never really worked? Damn what a wasted effort.  ::)
'Then' and 'than' are completely different words and have completely different meanings. Same with 'of' and 'have'. Set and sit. There, their and they're. Draw and drawer. Could care less/couldn't care less. Bought/brought FFS.


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Offline Stev-o

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Re: New brake master question
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2014, 01:35:44 PM »
First, I have to call foul on the rubber band thing. It accomplishes nothing. Adding pressure into the brake system with the rubber band will cause air bubbles to shrink - and be less likely to float up through the lines.
So the many times I've done it, it never really worked? Damn what a wasted effort.  ::)

I just read about a caliper rebuild in the most recent Motorcycle Classics magazine and step 17 is "To ensure all of the air is out of the system, pull the brake lever back and strap it down overnight".

Guess it didnt work for them either?
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Offline Bodi

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Re: New brake master question
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2014, 03:47:13 PM »
"Guess it didnt work for them either?"

Worked as well as lighting some incense and dancing naked would have. Old wives aren't the only ones with tales.

Explain to me how pressurizing the brake hydraulic system and closing the only return hole to the reservoir for several hours will help get air bubbles out.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 03:49:16 PM by Bodi »

Offline robvangulik

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Re: New brake master question
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2014, 04:00:09 PM »
You wrote yourself that added pressure causes bubbles to shrink, smaller bubbles will pass obstructions like banjo's and couplings easier. They'll float upwards until held by the closed hole in the master cylinder. With the cap and membrane removed you'll see air coming up the moment you release the handle....

Offline andy8190

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Re: New brake master question
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2014, 04:38:59 PM »
This thing is driving me nuts


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Offline andy8190

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Re: New brake master question
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2014, 04:39:16 PM »
Thinking may return this master


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JWExperience

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Re: New brake master question
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2014, 05:06:49 PM »
Before you do that try a speed bleeder. I've used them several times and it def helps. I also have left the cap off the mc over night and tapped the lines to losen up bubbles. Speed bleeders are relatively cheap compared to pumps usually too, they have a one way valve.

Offline andy8190

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Re: New brake master question
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2014, 05:11:39 PM »
I think it's just the fact this is a cheapo master. I got it brand new for 30 on eBay
I live in the middle of nowhere and don't have access to a speed bleeder

Offline andy8190

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Re: New brake master question
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2014, 05:15:18 PM »
Even trying to get my original master apart and can't. I have the c clip and other one out but plunger and washer won't come out

Offline Stev-o

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Re: New brake master question
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2014, 06:06:53 PM »
You wrote yourself that added pressure causes bubbles to shrink, smaller bubbles will pass obstructions like banjo's and couplings easier. They'll float upwards until held by the closed hole in the master cylinder. With the cap and membrane removed you'll see air coming up the moment you release the handle....

Yeah, what said ^^^
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Offline bjbuchanan

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Re: New brake master question
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2014, 06:16:03 PM »
Even trying to get my original master apart and can't. I have the c clip and other one out but plunger and washer won't come out

If you got the e-clip it now just sorta stand up the master, prop it up and whack it good. That will free it up, it is just stuck in place. Gut the master and swap parts around, see how you do.

Another thought is to check your caliper bleeder screw. My friends KZ had a worn out bleeder screw and it would leak just a little bit. You can check by hooking up the vacuum pump to the bleeder screw and seeing if it drops in pressure at all-it shouldn't with the bleeder closed.

The leaky bleeder meant that I could almost bleed it, but couldn't get a hard lever
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Offline andy8190

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Re: New brake master question
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2014, 09:22:30 PM »
got the original master apart and cleaned it up real well and reassembled since i do not have a rebuild kit. I am going to send the master I bought back and just get a rebuild kit i guess. I think the threads on my caliper are a little loose because the bleeder screw doesnt leak when closed but leaks out the threads when it is opened 1/4 of a turn

Offline dave500

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Re: New brake master question
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2014, 09:30:23 PM »
ive never had any trouble bleeding these,dont let the lever compress so much it touches the hand grip,tape a 1/2 inch strip of wood on the grip to stop it,if the lever touches the bar the piston travels too far and air is caught between the two sections of the piston,also the large feed hole can be uncovered and you have a temporary leak behind the piston onto your grip,ive never tried the rubber band trick?im not following its theory?

Online scottly

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Re: New brake master question
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2014, 09:39:04 PM »
So I bought a new master cylinder and think I have it completely bled with all the air out but I'm not sure because when I pull the lever in I do not get hardly any resistance. The front brake seems to grab well but I just don't feel much resistance at all at the handle. The master has a bore of 12.7mm would this be the cause?


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The 12.7 mm master WILL result in a softer feel to the lever than a stock 14 mm master. If your bike happens to be an early 750 F or a late 750 K with a 42.8 mm caliper, it will be more noticeable. How does it work on the road? My twin brake setup with dual 42.8 mm calipers and stock 14 mm master has what some would call a soft lever; if you squeeze it really hard, it *might* come close to hitting the handle bar, but doing so at speed would land you on your nose. ;)
PS I agree with Bodi ;D
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Offline Bootlegger56

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Re: New brake master question
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2014, 09:39:19 PM »
I don't know if its a factor in this case or not but I rebuilt the master on my K1 and also had to tap out and replace the bleeder in the caliper with one of these two part bleeders that consists of a threaded fitting that goes into the caliper and another threaded bleeder inside of that fitting.  I could not get mine to fully bleed either using a one man bleeder, taping the lever open over night, pumping until I got carpal tunnel syndrome and praying to the brake gods.  I finally figured out that it was getting air back in around the threads of the threaded bleeder portion.  I pulled it out and put a wrap of Teflon tape around the threads and bled the whole thing in just a few minutes with a one man bleeder. 
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Offline LesterPiglet

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Re: New brake master question
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2014, 01:37:21 AM »
Bodi: "Explain to me how pressurizing the brake hydraulic system and closing the only return hole to the reservoir for several hours will help get air bubbles out."

Your theory of the taping the lever back not working may be sound but conflicts with my experience. I'm sorry I can't write a paper on it.
'Then' and 'than' are completely different words and have completely different meanings. Same with 'of' and 'have'. Set and sit. There, their and they're. Draw and drawer. Could care less/couldn't care less. Bought/brought FFS.


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Offline dave500

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Re: New brake master question
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2014, 01:49:21 AM »
so it follows to not bleed the brake but to just hold it back with a rubber band and wait?

Offline LesterPiglet

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Re: New brake master question
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2014, 01:50:53 AM »
No Dave, it's a last resort.
I might try your suggestion and see what the outcome is, when I have a spare week or two.
'Then' and 'than' are completely different words and have completely different meanings. Same with 'of' and 'have'. Set and sit. There, their and they're. Draw and drawer. Could care less/couldn't care less. Bought/brought FFS.


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Offline dave500

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Re: New brake master question
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2014, 02:44:55 AM »
yeah just bleed them normally,if you encounter something odd try it,new hoses help even if they arent super duper stainless braided ones,old hoses trap air in their porousness?

Offline PeWe

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Re: New brake master question
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2014, 02:50:02 AM »
I had no problem with new SS braided brake fluid lines, all the way down to the caliper. Ok level with fluid in the reservoir, pumped the lever a few strokes, kept it in, opened the bleeder valve on caliper. Closed it and pumped again kept it in,opened the bleeder valve on which I had a clear tube on so the old brake fluid with bubbles ended in a jar. Repeated this and refilled fluid level until the fluid coming out thru the caliper bleed valve looked new.
My brake lever had not been in use for 25 years so it leaked a little bit in the beginning. OK later on.  I hope it will withstand real use in higher speed as well.

-Is it possible to refill from bottom with a big syringe connected to the open bleeder valve and pump so the bubbles can evacuate upwards?
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Offline trueblue

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Re: New brake master question
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2014, 03:41:31 AM »
"Guess it didnt work for them either?"

Worked as well as lighting some incense and dancing naked would have. Old wives aren't the only ones with tales.

Explain to me how pressurizing the brake hydraulic system and closing the only return hole to the reservoir for several hours will help get air bubbles out.
Very simple, when you sit there pumping the lever the fluid gets pushed down the line.  It takes with it the air bubbles, when you release the lever the air bubbles move back to their original position.  When you tie the lever back, the air bubbles have the chance to work their way back up the line.  Because they are compressed they will take much longer to rise hence leaving it overnight.  When you release the lever the first thing it does is let the fluid back into the reservior, and takes with it the air that has collected there over the previous hours.  You can't tell me it doesn't work I have used this trick on a number of bikes and several cars and it has worked on all but a couple of the cars ;D
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Offline Stev-o

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Re: New brake master question
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2014, 06:49:33 AM »


-Is it possible to refill from bottom with a big syringe connected to the open bleeder valve and pump so the bubbles can evacuate upwards?



Yes, with the power bleeder I wrote about earlier in the thread....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Reverse-Pressure-Brake-Clutch-Bleeder-/271426486191?pt=Motors_Aviation_Parts_Gear&hash=item3f32477faf
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