Author Topic: weird charging issue...weak battery maybe?  (Read 1530 times)

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Offline dohcdelsol93

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weird charging issue...weak battery maybe?
« on: March 29, 2014, 06:54:29 PM »
so i rode the cb550 to work the other morning.  It was warmer that day than the last few times i've ridden her to work. 

Most of the commute was above 3500 rpms, maybe 12 miles.

No previous issues but when i got to work the battery was really weak when i restarted the bike to pull it in the shop.  It sat maybe 15 min between getting to work and moving the bike into the shop.

I put the battery on a medium charge for a few hours.

I tested the battery a few hours later and it read 13.10 volts.

I let it rest over night thinking the fresh charge skewed the results, still reading 13.10 volts.

Charging system isn't working properly, running whether idle or 4k reads 12.7-12.9 volts.

can a weak battery read a higher voltage?  This is a gel battery, i'm used to seeing batteries 12.6-12.7 volts at off position.

this is a 76 cb550

thanks
« Last Edit: March 29, 2014, 06:56:08 PM by dohcdelsol93 »
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Online scottly

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Re: weird charging issue...weak battery maybe?
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2014, 07:22:36 PM »

Charging system isn't working properly, running whether idle or 4k reads 12.7-12.9 volts.


this is a 76 cb550

thanks
Do you have the stock regulator and rectifier? If so, the first thing I would check would be the regulator. With the ignition on, engine not running, measure the voltage on the black wire, which should be within a half volt of the battery voltage, then measure the voltage on the white wire. The white wire should read the same as the black wire.
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Offline dohcdelsol93

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Re: weird charging issue...weak battery maybe?
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2014, 03:36:33 AM »
Yes its all stock.


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Offline dohcdelsol93

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Re: weird charging issue...weak battery maybe?
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2014, 03:43:16 AM »
Is there anything special about the stock Honda regulator?

It takes 35 to 40 AC volts and turns it into DC volts.

Can I interchange it for one off of a Kohler or Briggs motor if needed? Or a similar year bike like a 77 kz400
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Offline Stev-o

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Re: weird charging issue...weak battery maybe?
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2014, 09:15:17 AM »
Is there anything special about the stock Honda regulator?

It takes 35 to 40 AC volts and turns it into DC volts.

Can I interchange it for one off of a Kohler or Briggs motor if needed? Or a similar year bike like a 77 kz400

Why would you do that? Why not upgrade to a modern combo unit?
Have you confirmed the reg is bad??

http://www.oregonmotorcycleparts.com/Reg_rec_units.html



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Offline TwoTired

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Re: weird charging issue...weak battery maybe?
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2014, 11:25:23 AM »
Is there anything special about the stock Honda regulator?
Depends on your point of view.


It takes 35 to 40 AC volts and turns it into DC volts.
Not so.  The Regulator turns the alternator on and off in response to the battery voltage.

It's the rectifier that converts the three phase AC to DC.

Can I interchange it for one off of a Kohler or Briggs motor if needed? Or a similar year bike like a 77 kz400
Probably not.

The SOHC4 alternator needs power for the filed coil (via the regulator) to make a magnetic field.  When the rotor turns within this magnetic field it produces power in the stator windings.  The rectifier then converts the AC power to DC power for the battery and running the bike's electrical loads.


Before you check the charging system, you must be certain your battery is in good and fully charged condition.  Yes, a faulty battery can make the charging system checks invalid.

It matters what charger you use for the battery.  High current chargers (more than 1-2 amps) can definitely damage a gel cell. (You sure it isn't and AGM?)
There are also dumb chargers and smart chargers which will adjust their charge rate based on battery charge state.

The 12.6- 12.7 volt reading should be made after the battery has rested off the charger for about two hours.  Batteries can retain a surcharge, immediately off the charger which will make their measured voltage higher than the 12.6v nominal reading.

Battery age is also a factor, as old used batteries can lose most of the voltage reading when a load is placed on it.  Essentially such failures limit the current outflow from the battery, and also the power that the battery can accept for storage.

Best to get the battery load tested before proceeding to check  the charging system.

Charging system methodical verification checks, CB750, CB550, CB500, CB400, and CB350.

Begin with problem verification and characterization with recorded data.
A -- Fully charge a known good battery.  Let it rest for 2 hours, off the charger, and measure the battery voltage.  (Target is 12.6-12.8V.)
B -- Start the bike and measure the battery voltage at idle, 2000, 3000, 4000, and 5000 rpm.
C -- Repeat the measurements of B with lighting off.

The above tests identify charging system success, failure, or degree of "faulty".  The success voltages are listed in the Shop manual.

D -- Assuming the above indicates faulty, do check the RECTIFIER diodes with a diode tester or ohmmeter capable of testing diodes and uses more than .7 volts to make the test(s).
Of the twelve test made in D, six must read low ohms and six must read very high ohms.

E- assuming no faults were found in D,  Measure the white and green wires disconnected from the REGULATOR.  CB750s should 6.8 ohms - ish,  CB550s/350s/ and 400s should read 4.9 ohms- ish.

F- If there are no bullet holes or road rash/divots on the alternator case, the stator is probably good.  But, you can check for yellow to yellow continuity (.35 ohms) among all the wires, and that no yellow wire has continuity to the engine case.

G- Assuming no faults found in D, E, and F, measure the disconnected terminals of the REGULATOR.  The black and white terminals should measure zero ohms (subtract meter error if there is any).  Higher than Zero ohms, indicates internal contact contamination needing cleaning and attention per shop manual.

H - Assuming D, E, F, and G have not found faults. We can verify all the of the charging system minus the regulator is functioning correctly, by using a temporary jumper to connect the disconnected white wire (normally attached to the REGULATOR) and connecting the White directly to the the battery POS terminal.  Repeat the B and C tests.  However, if at any time the battery voltage rises above 15V, stop the test.  Such an indication would prove the charging system capable of maintaining a known good battery.  If this test never achieves 15V, then there is a wire/connector issue in either the ground path leading back to the battery NEG terminal, a wiring/ connector issue withe the rectifier RED path to the battery POS terminal, or you made a mistake in D through G.

I - (not used, can be confused with L)

J -  The only parts that remain to prove or expose are the REGULATOR (in active mode) and the electrical path between the battery POS terminal and the black wire that connects to the REGULATOR.

K - Lying to and starving the regulator
The regulator can only do its job correctly if it gets a proper voltage report of true battery voltage status.  The Vreg monitors the Black wire for this status.  Measuring the voltage lost between the Battery terminals and the Vreg connections identifies problems that are not really the charging system's fault.
Two connection paths must be checked, the Battery POS terminal to the Black wire connection at the VReg, and the Battery NEG terminal to the Green wire connection to the Vreg.  A volt meter can measure these losses directly by placing a probe between the two identified points, Black path and then the green path.  The numbers are summed and the error seen by the Vreg quantified.  Anything over .5V loss is cause for concern and anything over 1V is a certain issue to be corrected.  Each connector, terminal, fuse clip, or switch in the pathway can cause voltage reporting loss.

The regulator also passes the received voltage on to to the Alternator field coil to create a magnetic field within the alternator,  The voltage level determines the strength of the magnetic field and the maximum output capability of the alternator.  Therefore, starving  the Vreg of true battery voltage leads to reduced max output capability of the alternator.

L - regulator operation/verification.
  The Vreg sends voltage to the alternator field in response to measured voltage which is battery state of charge.  Any voltage at the battery of less than 13.5V sends full black wire voltage to the alternator's white wire.  The alternator output will vary with RPM, even if "told" to produce max power by the Vreg.  If the alternator has enough RPM to overcome system load, any excess power is routed to the battery which will raise the battery voltage (slowly if depleted and rapidly if nearly full).   When the battery reaches 14.5V, the regulator reduces the voltage to the alternator, reducing output strength and preventing battery overcharge.  If the battery exceeds 14.7V, the regulator clamps the alternator field coil power to zero (0V), effective shutting off the alternator.

Because, there is electrical load from the system, an alternator that is not producing power allows the battery to deplete and the voltage falls.  The Vreg responds by turning the alternator back on in accordance with battery state/ charge level.

The Vreg state changes can be monitored/verified by observing the battery voltage state, and the White wire to the alternator field.  (Two meters are handy for this.)  The "trip" voltages can be adjusted with the adjust screw, while changing engine RPM and electrical load that the bike presents to the battery/charging system to "make" the battery reach the voltage levels need for the set trip points.  IE. with load reduced (lighting off) and the engine above 2500 RPM, a charged battery will attain 14.5 V.  Anything above that and the adjust screw needs to be backed out to keep the battery safe from harm.
The shop manual outlines bench set up mechanical adjustments that should be performed on unknown or tampered units.  These should be resolved before final trip point adjust tuning.

Note that while the system is working, the Vreg can change states rapidly before your very eyes., changing 5 times or more while you blink.  Therefore, you may have to mentally average values measured on the White wire if your selected meter doesn't do that for you.



Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline dohcdelsol93

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Re: weird charging issue...weak battery maybe?
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2014, 06:00:43 PM »
to get my bike home lol

quote author=Stev-o link=topic=135753.msg1528204#msg1528204 date=1396196117]
 :) :) :)
Is there anything special about the stock Honda regulator?

It takes 35 to 40 AC volts and turns it into DC volts.

Can I interchange it for one off of a Kohler or Briggs motor if needed? Or a similar year bike like a 77 kz400



Why would you do that? Why not upgrade to a modern combo unit?
Have you confirmed the reg is bad??

http://www.oregonmotorcycleparts.com/Reg_rec_units.html
[/quote]
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: weird charging issue...weak battery maybe?
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2014, 06:57:16 PM »
Why not upgrade to a modern combo unit?
The cost, especially if the present parts aren't bad.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Stev-o

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Re: weird charging issue...weak battery maybe?
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2014, 07:28:09 PM »
Why not upgrade to a modern combo unit?
The cost, especially if the present parts aren't bad.

Hey TT - what would you say is the average service life is of the stock reg & rec?

My K4 is forty years old with 22K miles, never had any electrical issues.  I'm considering upgrading the system to avoid a possible break down on a trip. Well worth $145 in my book.
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Online HondaMan

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Re: weird charging issue...weak battery maybe?
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2014, 09:58:20 PM »
Why not upgrade to a modern combo unit?
The cost, especially if the present parts aren't bad.

Hey TT - what would you say is the average service life is of the stock reg & rec?

My K4 is forty years old with 22K miles, never had any electrical issues.  I'm considering upgrading the system to avoid a possible break down on a trip. Well worth $145 in my book.

Not to usurp TT's response, but: mine is OEM at 140k miles, built in 1971. All of the other 350F/400F750 bikes I have here are the same, but lower miles.

Mostly, battery chargers kill the rectifier when the battery is dead and someone hooks up a 10 amp or larger charger to the bike without disconnecting the battery first.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Offline lucky

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Re: weird charging issue...weak battery maybe?
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2014, 10:28:18 PM »
When fully charged all 12V batteries are about 13.6- 12.6 volts.
2.1-2.3 volts for each of the 6 cells.

We still call them 12 volt batteries.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: weird charging issue...weak battery maybe?
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2014, 11:51:23 AM »
Hey TT - what would you say is the average service life is of the stock reg & rec?
I haven't had any failures on any of the stock Regulators.   Without failure statistical instances (and known causes of a failures, or circumstance history), one simply cannot calculate the failure rate of any device.
One of the bikes I acquired (Orange 76 CB550F) had a bad diode in the rectifier, as received. (The one which the Green wire up the spine melted as well as the red wires to the rectifier).

I suspect the major cause of stock regulator (and/or) rectifier failure, is adjustment tampering and other such abuses (such as Battery electrolyte depletion, and electrical alterations).

Why are they tampered with?  Possibly because the switches, connectors and fuse clips becomes resistive with oxidation, making the bike lie to the regulator about true battery voltage.  So, the rookie "adjusts" the regulator in an attempt to compensate for the above stated oxidation, as well as the extra loads placed upon the charging system due to brighter headlight installation and "upgraded" ignition systems that draw nearly twice the power as the stock system to get that unnecessary "fat blue spark".

Then latter, on a subsequent longer trip than usual, the battery gets overcharged, loses its electrolyte, and this cooks off one or more diodes in the rectifier.  The exact mode of rectifier failure can then possibly cook the wiring in a domino effect.

Perhaps the best "improvement" that an electronic reg/rectifier adds is the lack of an adjustment screw.  ::)

Ask yourself this.  When the bike was 1-5 years old (before oxidation effects became established), was it a common, "popular" upgrade to replace the rectifier and regulator with "electronic".  I don't think so.  I actually never heard of such a "favored upgrade" until it was popularized in these forum pages, which I think is at least partially driven from the "new is better" pervasive marketing campaigns constantly bombarding the general public.

In a similar vain, what would you say the average service life of the SOHC4 is when there is possible operator abuse?  ;D 

Cheers,
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: weird charging issue...weak battery maybe?
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2014, 12:17:43 PM »
When fully charged all 12V batteries are about 13.6- 12.6 volts.
2.1-2.3 volts for each of the 6 cells.

We still call them 12 volt batteries.
This information is in error.

If a battery is measured at 13.6 volts, it has not been allowed the 1-2 hours to stabilize after charging and before testing.

http://www.yuasabatteries.com/faqs.php?action=1&id=30

The actual unloaded and stabilized fully charged wet cell or AGM voltage is 2.10 to 2.12 volts/cell.
Here is another very good source for battery information:
http://www.solar-electric.com/deep-cycle-battery-faq.html#Battery
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Airborne 82nd

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Re: weird charging issue...weak battery maybe?
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2014, 12:43:58 PM »
Thank you for posting this Mr. TT. I was looking at this just yesterday I bought a new battery for the bike I just got they said it was good to go when I picked it up. The thing is I got it off the shelf and they did nothing to it but check it with a volt meter I did not feel comfortable about it so put it on my charger over night. When I check it it was 13.20 vdc but later it was12.8 so I guess it is OK. It is a AGM and I have never had one of these before. This is the charger I got to go with it.
http://store.yuasabatteries.com/p/automatic-12v-1-5-amp-battery-charger
And this is the battery. I hope I got the right stuff I went but the batterystuff web site.
http://www.batterystuff.com/powersports-batteries/sYTX14AHL-BS.html

Offline TwoTired

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Re: weird charging issue...weak battery maybe?
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2014, 02:46:49 PM »
This is the charger I got to go with it.
http://store.yuasabatteries.com/p/automatic-12v-1-5-amp-battery-charger
I have this charger, as well.  It's been working fine for me. And should certainly do no harm to the battery.

And this is the battery. I hope I got the right stuff I went but the batterystuff web site.
http://www.batterystuff.com/powersports-batteries/sYTX14AHL-BS.html
This battery has the wrong post polarity for the 550's, doesn't it?  I think the one in this link is for the Cb750, which is bigger both physically and capacity.  This would require a battery cable change, as well as some precautions to keep the POS terminal from contacting the frame components.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Airborne 82nd

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Re: weird charging issue...weak battery maybe?
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2014, 04:17:54 PM »
This is the charger I got to go with it.
http://store.yuasabatteries.com/p/automatic-12v-1-5-amp-battery-charger
I have this charger, as well.  It's been working fine for me. And should certainly do no harm to the battery.

And this is the battery. I hope I got the right stuff I went but the batterystuff web site.
http://www.batterystuff.com/powersports-batteries/sYTX14AHL-BS.html
This battery has the wrong post polarity for the 550's, doesn't it?  I think the one in this link is for the Cb750, which is bigger both physically and capacity.  This would require a battery cable change, as well as some precautions to keep the POS terminal from contacting the frame components.

I have a 750K 1978

Offline TwoTired

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Re: weird charging issue...weak battery maybe?
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2014, 05:56:32 PM »
Oh. 
I had assumed you were the op continuing the thread.

I'm terrible with names.  I'm very good with remembering visual images, though.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline dohcdelsol93

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Re: weird charging issue...weak battery maybe?
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2014, 03:12:22 PM »
My battery was retaining 13 volts for days after being taken off charge. I got a new Battery as a spare to get home on in case the other failed.

I  just ordered a regulator rectifier combo. Both stator assemblies I have are good.
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Offline brewsky

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Re: weird charging issue...weak battery maybe?
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2014, 03:37:42 AM »
Checked the wiring to stator/starter thru the case near the drive sprocket?

See here....
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=120212.msg1360923#msg1360923
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 03:43:50 AM by brewsky »
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