Author Topic: Voltage loss at Ignition switch  (Read 7680 times)

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Offline trebuchetxlt

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Re: Voltage loss at Ignition switch
« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2014, 09:33:30 AM »
I did measure the voltage with the ignition on during the initial test that's why I couldn't understand two different switches giving the same reading. I tested the Red input at the switch in Off and On positions to gauge whether the problem was at the switch or in the wire from the battery. The fusebox is a Hondaman blade type which has been on the bike for less than a year, and I did measure the voltages at that point too.
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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Voltage loss at Ignition switch
« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2014, 09:43:38 AM »
Think you need to do that test again.... with the ign. 'on' this time . Report the voltage at the Red terminal and the Black terminal..... that's the only way to verify the switch  :)
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Offline calj737

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Re: Voltage loss at Ignition switch
« Reply #27 on: April 18, 2014, 09:54:31 AM »
It's odd, Spanner, he stated directly above that he tested the switch in both "Off" and "On" positions, yet you seem to believe he still hasn't done it properly. If you scroll up a ways back, you'll also see that after some prudent maintenance on the switch, that he remedied his "loss" and now has correct voltage on both sides of the switch.

What part exactly did he not do "properly" since it's now corrected?
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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Voltage loss at Ignition switch
« Reply #28 on: April 18, 2014, 10:11:34 AM »
Well, the OP never said, or was he asked,until I asked , if he had measured the voltage at the Red terminal with the ignition 'on'.  ( not until Reply #25 ). If the voltage @ Red is the same as Black proves the switch is good.
Secondly, he says that a second switch 'gave the exact same results'. Again points away from the switch.... if now he reports voltage the same both sides ( after cleaning ) well great, but I'd be looking at my battery connections, 'stud' on the solenoid, main ground too......
If your sure it's a carb problem; it's ignition,
If your sure it's an ignition problem; it's carbs....

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Voltage loss at Ignition switch
« Reply #29 on: April 18, 2014, 11:04:00 AM »
I maintain talking about Watts here (i.c. voltage drop) is irrelevant.
And you're still wrong.  See any heat sinks on the ignition switch?  It is NOT designed to dissipate power.  It is not designed to consume power.  It is designed to pass power unimpeded.  Why is this not a simple concept to comprehend?
Many insulating materials distort with heat.  And, the switch contacts are internally held in place by insulating materials.
Have you never taken a switch apart?  If not, WTF are you giving advice about something you know nothing about?

That's what I ment by saying 'Can't make sense of your Watts'. And I had Ohms law in school, thank you. The power consumption in Watts is a consequence and not the cause.
You're still wrong.  And watt's law is closely tied to ohm's law for nearly everyone actually trained in the electrical matters.  Did you skip school the day after ohm's law was taught?  Here's a refresher, since you were unable to decipher the quick reference wheel I posted earlier.  P (watts) = E (voltage) x I (current)

So it's no use discussing Watts here.
Only because it doesn't help your non-sequitur argument, rather than lead to an understanding if the real issues.   

How is trebuchetxlt to measure Watts with his DMM?
Measure voltage drop and then measure (or know) the current passing the switch contacts.  Then it is a simple calculation.  P= IxE   Are we not allowed to use math per your rules?

Please show him that switch position on your DMM.  Show me and I'll buy one instantly for my collection ;D ;D
Just put "watt meter" into an internet search browser and you'll find hundreds to choose from.  I suggest you buy them all, since simple math appears to be abhorrent to you.  ;D ;D
Here's a few examples. 
http://geraiprodukcom.itrademarket.com/1503385/lutron-dw-6060-digital-watt-meter.htm
http://www.amazon.com/100-Amp-DC-Watt-Meter/dp/B005534KM6
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-LUTRON-DW-6160-Digital-Watt-Leakage-Meter-Tester-ACV-ACA-DCV-ohms-/161040042936

However, since I know simple math, I can use any of my DMMs to find power consumption of a circuit.  trebuchetxlt already found the correct switch positions to diagnose the fault properly.
Do YOU need a remedial lesson on meter use?  Is this a serious request?  Do you even have a DMM?

Now, if you allow me a question, a question only someone as stupid as I can ask... 30 years of repairing electric fans and hairdryers does that also count as '30yrs in the electronics industry'?
Imo no, you have experience in a corner of the electrical industry.  Electronics is a bit different.  In this context I propose...

Electronics - "the branch of physics and technology concerned with the design of circuits using transistors and microchips, and with the behavior and movement of electrons in a semiconductor, conductor, vacuum, or gas."

Electrical - "using or providing or producing or transmitting or operated by electricity; "electric current"; "electric wiring"; "electrical appliances"; "an electrical storm""

I can only surmise that your 30 yr experience consisted of simple part substitution from on the job training, rather than circuit or component analysis (theory or practice).

I suspect your rejection of "Simple Physics" is the root of many misunderstandings.  Too bad, as there is nothing in this world with which we are more intimate with on a daily, second by second basis, awareness notwithstanding.
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Voltage loss at Ignition switch
« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2014, 11:37:15 PM »
TT, it is as simple as this: every time Ohms Law is the topic you never fail to produce the most complicated scheme I have ever come across. This doesn't go unnoticed. Nor that in your posts the words 'physics' and 'math' always go accompanied by the epitheton 'simple'. But who do you think to impress? Yourself? It's a bit... let's say Tiring. It's not the scheme I would present to get people familiar with Ohm's Law. I'd rather 'simply' produce Ohms Law in it's basic form and maybe add an example. We are not debile, you know.
The topic was 'voltage loss at ignition switch'. There's no need to empty a bookshelf for that. Using the ohm- and voltfunction on a ordinary multimeter is all it takes and you will not find a Watts function on the average multimeter, automotive or not. Ever wondered why that is?
Cleaning contacts is enough and if your wiring has lived through the kilometers my bike did, you may suspect that due to aging and vibrating part of the capacity in that brittled copper is lost anyway. I maintain a voltagedrop as described above is not abnormal for a bike that old and I've seen worse. It might well be there's a similar voltage drop on mine. I don't bother as long as it starts and runs fine. I thought it was a good advice to start with cleaning the contacts by some vigorously switching. Worked for me on countless occasions and I thought I should share that experience. I always start with the simplest and can recommend that practice to anyone. It's from my experience with the laws of physics. Can't put it simpler.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 12:43:54 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Voltage loss at Ignition switch
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2014, 12:42:59 PM »
TT, it is as simple as this: every time Ohms Law is the topic you never fail to produce the most complicated scheme I have ever come across.
Amazing, Ohm's law and Watt's law are the most complicated schemes you've encountered?   Just wow.   Kirchoff's laws must send you reeling in confusion.  How can you possibly understand series circuits?
  Anyway Ohm's law isn't taught at the beginning of the lesson plan.  It's not until after the Physics and the fundamentals of matter as it relates to electricity is taught first, then electrostatics,  magnetism, Voltage, current and resistance, in order to make ohm's law relevant and justified foundationally.  In fact, nuclear theory explaining how atoms have electrons and a nucleus comprised or protons and neutrons, it the root of understanding what electricity does during operation.  Everything is complicated for those determined not to delve thoroughly and gain a root understanding of the subject.  Further, you cannot hope to understand the control of electricity without a basic knowledge of math.

This doesn't go unnoticed. Nor that in your posts the words 'physics' and 'math' always go accompanied by the epitheton 'simple'. But who do you think to impress?
I'm not trying to impress anyone.  I'm trying to teach those willing to learn about how things fundamentally work.  DC theory is very basic and simple to understand compared to AC theory.  And the formulas and math necessary to understand high frequency circuitry and operation would clearly send you screaming toward an asylum.
Things become simple only after you understand the basics.  Avoid the basics and nothing relating to technology will be simple.  I define simple math as the ability to do addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division.  With these tools you can understand DC series and parallel circuits.  Avoid this math, and electrical devices will always be mystical regarding operation.   There is no need for it to be mystical, and the knowledge is available for those who wish to be enlightened.  Avoid this knowledge and your best tool for solving errant device behavior will be systematic replacement/substitution of components until the "problem" goes away.  This can be an expensive route that can be avoided with knowledge gained beforehand.

I get it, you are a neo-luddite diametrically opposed to learning how things really work, in favor of your own personal theories about how you wished they work.   Fine.  Don't read my posts or try to impede those that actually DO want to learn and have reliable understanding of physical devices.

Yourself? It's a bit... let's say Tiring.
Do yourself a favor and stop reading my posts.  They are clearly beyond any hope of understanding on your part, particularly if you refuse to learn something you haven't personally thought up.  The things I present here are not something I made up.  I was taught, either through classroom, book reading, peer group, or research during job functions (experience).  And I've used these teachings to help me understand and improve my life and the machines/devices around me.  If you don't wish to gain these benefits, just ignore me.  You'll feel rejuvenated by reveling in your own deluded sense of reality.

It's not the scheme I would present to get people familiar with Ohm's Law. I'd rather 'simply' produce Ohms Law in it's basic form and maybe add an example. We are not debile, you know.
The internet audience runs the gamut between college grads and the feeble.  You chose the audience you wish to address and I'll chose mine.
You are welcome to present any scheme you wish in your own posts, as long as it is accurate, and not based on human emotions such as wishes.  If you teach foundational flaws, be prepared to be admonished and corrected.   
The OP of this thread proved to be accomplished in his very first post in the thread.  In fact, if you noticed, he fixed his switch problem and voltage loss by refurbishing the faulty switch(s).

The topic was 'voltage loss at ignition switch'. There's no need to empty a bookshelf for that. Using the ohm- and voltfunction on a ordinary multimeter is all it takes and you will not find a Watts function on the average multimeter, automotive or not. Ever wondered why that is?

You are still wrong about that.  You cannot use an ordinary DMM to measure switch degradation, as it's inherent resolution and accuracy is less than the subject resistance you are attempting to measure.
We have already proven that to you in prior posts, which you refuse to believe or are unable to comprehend.

Can you measure a teaspoon of water by using a gallon jug with the only calibration at the one gallon mark?  No, not with any believability.

Check the resolution and accuracy figures on your DMM.  If those numbers vary more than the object under test, you can't make an accurate measurement.
A 1 volt drop at 10 amps indicates 0.1 Ω resistance.  You are fooling only yourself if you think an ordinary DMM can accurately measure that on a 200 or 20Ω scale selection.
Your credibility dropped to zero with the claim that an ordinary DMM can accurately measure degraded switches rather than outright failed switches.

http://www.eevblog.com/2009/08/21/eevblog-26-multimeter-counts-accuracy-resolution-calibration/

http://www.robotroom.com/Measuring-Low-Resistances.html

Cleaning contacts is enough and if your wiring has lived through the kilometers my bike did, you may suspect that due to aging and vibrating part of the capacity in that brittled copper is lost anyway. I maintain a voltagedrop as described above is not abnormal for a bike that old and I've seen worse.
No, it isn't abnormal for it's age.  But, it is still a failure (degradation is a form of failure) and a clue toward future catastrophe.   You can tip over the edge of a cliff, and for a few seconds, it doesn't matter.  But, given time, the lack of support will have you heading toward the cliff base.

It might well be there's a similar voltage drop on mine. I don't bother as long as it starts and runs fine.
Your choice.  But, a bit of preventive maintenance now might allow you to avoid complete replacement in the future.

I thought it was a good advice to start with cleaning the contacts by some vigorously switching.
This is a temporary sidestep of the issue.  Useful, if you are out on the road mid-trip.  I've done that myself.  If required during your pre-ride inspections, it is a sign that maintenance is due soon, or you'll eventually be parked at the side of the road awaiting help (done that, too).  If you actually look inside the switch, you can clean, resurface and re-lube the original switch, to restore full low resistance operation before melting the internal bits into oblivion, requiring complete replacement (same is true for the block style fuse holder found on many SOHC4s).

Worked for me on countless occasions and I thought I should share that experience. I always start with the simplest and can recommend that practice to anyone. It's from my experience with the laws of physics. Can't put it simpler.
Your choice to postpone the inevitable until it becomes catastrophic.  But, I think you are confusing "simplest" with "easiest" as in minimal effort for the moment.  Any of your followers are free to do so as well. 

I can only attempt to educate.  The reader has to chose to learn.
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