Author Topic: 1977 CB750 K7 Resto-mod, Knoxville  (Read 97863 times)

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Offline enwri

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Re: 1977 CB750 K7 Resto-mod, Knoxville
« Reply #550 on: July 31, 2015, 11:33:33 PM »
Richer and richer until they fall out, then it goes real lean real fast.
At least that's what I found.
 
77 CB 750 k.. 29 years and counting.
91 TDM 850 (No.34) so comfy and soft
8? XJ 550 meh...
76 XL 350 Super Sport stump puller..
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Offline AintNoEasyWay

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Re: 1977 CB750 K7 Resto-mod, Knoxville
« Reply #551 on: July 31, 2015, 11:36:08 PM »
Are those are the old plugs?, lash out and get new ones, they will show up how each carb is performing easier.
did you clear tube it or bench sync it after you had all the bodies apart last time?
Maybe just check the level in the one that's not getting hot, or try screwing the mixture screw in and out to see if it picks up and fires. As they move out it gets a little more fuel at idle, in is less, can show if idle jets are dirty, if no effect, something is blocked or its flooding. Or the plug is dead.

Or the slide on that one is closed already before the others,(not synced) give it a bit of a rev to see if it picks up.

These are the old plugs. I figured at get new ones after the first few rides anyway. No big deal to get them now. I took the carbs back off & checked the float in #3 along with the jets in it. In the photo above, #3 plug looks really dark in comparison to the others. Everything in the carb looked fine. Idle screws are all 1.5 turns out.

I bench synced the carbs last year before putting them on & syncing them with gauges. I will go ahead & get clear tubing tomorrow & try the clear tube method for the first time.

I'm wary of running it now because of the smoke. If I let it idle, I have smoke from #4 exhaust (around the collar), along with smoke around the carbs & even some from the exhaust if I play with the idle adjuster too much. I looked down at the piston in #4 after removing hat spark plug & it looked clean. The smoke around #4 could be because I used wd40 to clean some rust off one of the collars before attaching the exhaust, but I'm not even sure if it was #4 collar. Still doesn't explain smoke around the carbs.,I don't know if maybe the engine is overheating or something?

I don't know if oil is burning & maybe that's why my oil tank needed a refill or if that oil just went down in the engine to lube everything.

Offline enwri

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Re: 1977 CB750 K7 Resto-mod, Knoxville
« Reply #552 on: August 01, 2015, 04:15:38 AM »
A little bit of smoke and smells in the beginning is almost compulsory, paint curing, oily fingerprints and wd40 burning off, as long as it's not leaking oil it will be alright.
I'm expecting that no. 3 exhaust pipe to smoke for a while until it's burnt clean as well. (from inside)
Oil has now been pumped  through the filter and gearbox and has filled all the little pockets and traps, once they fill the rest can flow back to the sump to the scavenger pump, then back to the tank, whatever got retained in the cases needs to be replaced but only once. If it all goes missing over night and it's not on the floor, the checkvalve has leaked it all into the sump. (Rarely happens)
I wouldn't worry too much about getting it too hot, they can take some punishment in the hot, stop start traffic, even a little fan will let it idle for a long while.
Once you get all the cylinders firing just ride it around a bit and let it settle in, have a look at the plugs to make sure it's running ok, and make any adjustments (cables, brakes, chains, and things)
77 CB 750 k.. 29 years and counting.
91 TDM 850 (No.34) so comfy and soft
8? XJ 550 meh...
76 XL 350 Super Sport stump puller..
80 XR 200 idiot proof
75 MX 250 b dangerous

Offline AintNoEasyWay

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Re: 1977 CB750 K7 Resto-mod, Knoxville
« Reply #553 on: August 01, 2015, 07:47:56 AM »
I may be losing oil but I'm not positive. I haven't started the bike today but the dipstick measurement looks lower. I replaced the check valve in the oil pump when I rebuilt it several weeks back. Is there a way to be sure I'm not losing all my oil into the sump without just seeing if it all disappears from the tank?

I just removed the tappet covers & am checking to see if oil is getting to the top end now.

Offline enwri

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Re: 1977 CB750 K7 Resto-mod, Knoxville
« Reply #554 on: August 01, 2015, 10:17:52 AM »
As soon as it starts it's pumping whatever has collected in the sump, back into the tank anyway. check it after it has run for a few minutes
If you shine a torch into the oil tank towards the front of the bike when it's running, you should be able to see the return oil circulating back in.
Should flick a bit of oil out of the exhaust side tappet hole when running, and be visible flowing towards the front drains if you look down towards the base of the exhaust valve springs with the torch.
77 CB 750 k.. 29 years and counting.
91 TDM 850 (No.34) so comfy and soft
8? XJ 550 meh...
76 XL 350 Super Sport stump puller..
80 XR 200 idiot proof
75 MX 250 b dangerous

Offline AintNoEasyWay

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Re: 1977 CB750 K7 Resto-mod, Knoxville
« Reply #555 on: August 01, 2015, 01:28:11 PM »
Looks like my float levels may be way, way off...

Do I adjust down or up from here? I figure the float isn't allowing the bowl to fill all the way so I would need to lower the float. I set them to 12.5 mm, should I move to more like 14.5?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2015, 01:31:47 PM by AintNoEasyWay »

Offline oldhatt45

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Re: 1977 CB750 K7 Resto-mod, Knoxville
« Reply #556 on: August 01, 2015, 01:32:33 PM »
AintNoEasyWay,

Remember, there AintNoEasyWay.  (Sorry, couldn't resist.  :)  )

Looks like maybe your float valve may be hanging up on the bowl?????
Others have had the problem where the pin slides and gets stuck and others have had the problem where the pin is too long.

Check it when you pull the bowl off.

Charlie

Offline AintNoEasyWay

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Re: 1977 CB750 K7 Resto-mod, Knoxville
« Reply #557 on: August 01, 2015, 01:58:04 PM »
Yep, chose the right username!

All of them are riding to this same level. I guess it's possible that they're all hanging up, but seems unlikely...

Offline Desert-SOHC

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Re: 1977 CB750 K7 Resto-mod, Knoxville
« Reply #558 on: August 01, 2015, 01:58:21 PM »
Looks like my float levels may be way, way off...

Do I adjust down or up from here? I figure the float isn't allowing the bowl to fill all the way so I would need to lower the float. I set them to 12.5 mm, should I move to more like 14.5?


I started at 12mm and ended up at 14mm and it runs MUCH better there. I believe the factory recommends 14.5mm. It looks likes there is almost no fuel in your bowl and if it doesn't cover the idle jet completely that cylinder will starve for fuel.
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Offline AintNoEasyWay

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Re: 1977 CB750 K7 Resto-mod, Knoxville
« Reply #559 on: August 01, 2015, 02:12:31 PM »
Looks like my float levels may be way, way off...

Do I adjust down or up from here? I figure the float isn't allowing the bowl to fill all the way so I would need to lower the float. I set them to 12.5 mm, should I move to more like 14.5?


I started at 12mm and ended up at 14mm and it runs MUCH better there. I believe the factory recommends 14.5mm. It looks likes there is almost no fuel in your bowl and if it doesn't cover the idle jet completely that cylinder will starve for fuel.

Yea, I'm wondering if this is a big part of my problems!

Offline enwri

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Re: 1977 CB750 K7 Resto-mod, Knoxville
« Reply #560 on: August 01, 2015, 02:50:58 PM »
Yeah, that doesn't look quite right, the level should be just a few millimetres down from the top edge of the bowl.
The clear tube thing isn't as straight forward on the pd carbs because we block a vent to do it. We somehow have to get rid of the air bubble in the tube, without pushing fuel back up the overflow.
    It's hard to explain how though, I'll try anyway..

If you drop the open end of the tube down a bit (to make the loop bigger) with the drain screw open, it should allow more fuel in the tube, let it fill a little, close the drain. When the bubble is at the base of the overflow opening again, lift the open end up slowly until the air has just been pushed back up into the carb, open the screw slowly and slowly drop the open end a little, if more air appears, do it again.
When there is no bubble and the screw is open the fuel level should rise to almost the top edge of the bowl, if you slowly drop the end again, it should rise back up to mark again. If it floods and keeps rising the upper body vents may be blocked.
The 12mm float level will fill the bowl in theory 2mm higher than the 14mm level, It's the buoyancy of each individual float that detemines the fuel level at any given measurement.
We assume that all the floats have the same buoyancy as brand new standard floats when we set them by measurement alone.
Trouble is they often aren't quite exactly the same.
 So we check the actual fuel level and adjust the float level measurement to reach the desired level instead.
I'm pretty sure you were getting way too much fuel on yours though, the jet that fell out slows down/meters how much fuel it could pull in, without it , it was pouring in, so much it couldn't set it alight in the cylinder.
77 CB 750 k.. 29 years and counting.
91 TDM 850 (No.34) so comfy and soft
8? XJ 550 meh...
76 XL 350 Super Sport stump puller..
80 XR 200 idiot proof
75 MX 250 b dangerous

Offline enwri

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Re: 1977 CB750 K7 Resto-mod, Knoxville
« Reply #561 on: August 01, 2015, 04:55:59 PM »
went and tried it out again, clear tube video.
It's a little difficult to see the level sometimes, but you can see what I mean about the air bubble bit.

     

And set the resolution to hd to see better
« Last Edit: August 01, 2015, 05:04:12 PM by enwri »
77 CB 750 k.. 29 years and counting.
91 TDM 850 (No.34) so comfy and soft
8? XJ 550 meh...
76 XL 350 Super Sport stump puller..
80 XR 200 idiot proof
75 MX 250 b dangerous

Offline AintNoEasyWay

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Re: 1977 CB750 K7 Resto-mod, Knoxville
« Reply #562 on: August 02, 2015, 06:08:34 AM »
went and tried it out again, clear tube video.
It's a little difficult to see the level sometimes, but you can see what I mean about the air bubble bit.

     

And set the resolution to hd to see better

Enwri, that was an excellent explanation. Thanks for taking the time to share the video & write that out. I had to play with the tubing like you did in your video but the levels came out right after all. One less thing to be concerned about & now I'll move on to trying to find out why cylinder #1 isn't firing & whether or not in losing oil.

I filled the oil tank yesterday & as far as I can tell, it's still full this morning. I'll go get some new spark plugs today & then start up the bike to see if/how oil is flowing.

Offline Desert-SOHC

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Re: 1977 CB750 K7 Resto-mod, Knoxville
« Reply #563 on: August 02, 2015, 10:22:09 AM »
YUP.....that looks much better
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90 S&S 11SC Cabover Camper
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Offline AintNoEasyWay

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Re: 1977 CB750 K7 Resto-mod, Knoxville
« Reply #564 on: August 03, 2015, 06:52:11 AM »
All the local shops are out of NGK D8EA spark plugs so I just cleaned up my old ones last night & checked the valve clearances. When I get home tonight I'll try another start, watch the rocker arms & check the oil tank while it's running.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 08:14:37 AM by AintNoEasyWay »

Offline AintNoEasyWay

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Re: 1977 CB750 K7 Resto-mod, Knoxville
« Reply #565 on: August 03, 2015, 06:06:55 PM »
Alright guys, I got #1 firing again. I guess the plug was just fouled. I'm not sure.

I let the bike idle for about 5 minutes just now. I can't get it to hold idle for under about 1500, otherwise it starts to spit & sputter. I've got smoke coming from my exhaust though. Here's a video:
Is this to be expected somewhat during first few start ups?
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 06:11:55 PM by AintNoEasyWay »

Offline Desert-SOHC

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Re: 1977 CB750 K7 Resto-mod, Knoxville
« Reply #566 on: August 03, 2015, 06:22:37 PM »
With pretty much a new top end a little smoke is expected. You need to get it out and run it for a bit and then see whats up. JMO
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Offline enwri

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Re: 1977 CB750 K7 Resto-mod, Knoxville
« Reply #567 on: August 03, 2015, 09:58:43 PM »
That sounds pretty good, hopefully that's just the wet crud in no3 and the silencer drying out. Like Desert says, get it out moving and loaded, no drag starts but just use it a bit, there's different opinions about bedding new rings but just vary the load and go up and down the rev range rather than just idling. Some people swear by babying it for ages, others say load it up throttlewise, not necessarily redlining it, but just keep varying speeds and loads.
I'm pretty sure more than a couple of people would have rolled them out the shop brand new, and found out if they really could do 120mph the first chance they got.
It wasn't bored was it? Just rings? Look up a break in thread, lot's of opinions.
Personally if was new rings in an old bore, the clearances aren't as tight as new pistons and rings, I'd just be a little easy on it in the beginning, and end up riding it fairly normally in a day or two.
Change the oil and filter after a while, before it's due the normal service interval anyway.
You'll have to ride it to see if it the carbs are working ok anyway. Plugs will probably just go black idling.
77 CB 750 k.. 29 years and counting.
91 TDM 850 (No.34) so comfy and soft
8? XJ 550 meh...
76 XL 350 Super Sport stump puller..
80 XR 200 idiot proof
75 MX 250 b dangerous

Offline enwri

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Re: 1977 CB750 K7 Resto-mod, Knoxville
« Reply #568 on: August 03, 2015, 10:09:08 PM »
I'm also assuming the you had oil flicking out all over your headers and new paint when you had the caps off. More smoke but it'll burn off quick when you're moving, or fill up your garage pretty quick too. It is well ventilated down there isn't it? It'll probably idle on for a fair while after you get your lethal dose of carbon monoxide.

The idle thing,,, once it's out and about up to temp. it may just be mixture screw adjustments it needs, they pretty much control the idle and off idle running. That sounds like mine with the choke out . (a little rich)
You can try moving them all in or out 1/4 turn at a time and listen for the highest idle. (then back off the idle speed adjuster)
I think you richen them a touch after the best idle is found. That could also be BS, two strokes hate being lean, it might just be them.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 10:23:41 PM by enwri »
77 CB 750 k.. 29 years and counting.
91 TDM 850 (No.34) so comfy and soft
8? XJ 550 meh...
76 XL 350 Super Sport stump puller..
80 XR 200 idiot proof
75 MX 250 b dangerous

Offline AintNoEasyWay

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Re: 1977 CB750 K7 Resto-mod, Knoxville
« Reply #569 on: August 03, 2015, 11:01:17 PM »
Great. Yes, it only had a hone, no rebore. New rings of course. I removed the tappet covers as you suggested & did have oil flinging out all over the front of the head & onto exhaust, so all of that was burning off. My mixture screws are all just 1.5 turns out at the moment.

I'll do as you recommend & try riding it easy to see what happens. My oil is exremely dirty by the way. I'll probably change it out very soon. I think it's because of the oil tank,which I didn't clean out during top end rebuild.

Offline Restoration Fan

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Re: 1977 CB750 K7 Resto-mod, Knoxville
« Reply #570 on: August 04, 2015, 05:22:43 AM »
The dirty oil may be your problem with the smoke.  Once you change the oil, you might find the amount of smoke diminishing or disappearing.
Ron

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Offline AintNoEasyWay

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Re: 1977 CB750 K7 Resto-mod, Knoxville
« Reply #571 on: August 04, 2015, 07:33:00 AM »
The dirty oil may be your problem with the smoke.  Once you change the oil, you might find the amount of smoke diminishing or disappearing.

Maybe. From other threads I'm gathering that it could also be
1) condensation from the engine/pipes (since smoke is white) or
2) maybe it's running rich? or
3) assembly lube (seems unlikely now since I've worked so much oil into the top end now or
4) some people are saying it could also be bad valve guides (i didn't put in new ones) or a head gasket problem

Here's the main thread I'm reading through: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=112646.0

When I first let it idle last night, I was also getting some popping from the carbs, but that went away after it warmed up.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 07:42:34 AM by AintNoEasyWay »

Offline enwri

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Re: 1977 CB750 K7 Resto-mod, Knoxville
« Reply #572 on: August 04, 2015, 09:08:06 AM »
Does the "smoke" hang around in the air or just sort of dissipate straight away, condensation of the hot moisture in the exhaust just disappears usually.
I'm loathe to mention that the float levels could be a millimetre or two lower going by the tube thing, 14.5 might suit better. (don't do it unless it winds up that it is a little rich and you can't adjust around it) ask Desert about the difference it made to his, he mentioned changing his to 14.5. (also stops slow weeping around the bowl gaskets if they're always just above the fuel level, unless it's on the sidestand.)
At least now you know setting the floats by measurement will be good enough to get a consistent level in all the bowls. 

It's got new stem seals, plus it's a fairly low mileage engine, guides shouldn't be gone yet, (and the head guy checked them too) new seals would cover even worn guides for a while.
 Keep an eye on the head to cylinder join for leaks if you're worried about the head gasket, but both of those surfaces were machined true, and with HD studs.

You can change the oil if you want, a little bit of old oil in the tank plus any carbon deposits in the cases will turn it all black pretty quick, doesn't necessarily mean it's no good.
Just curious, what oil did you end up using?

See what I meant about differing break in opinions, some hard, some gentle, I have always heard that big diesels idling for hours without load will polish the bores until they wont hold oil on the bore surface properly. (shouldn't have told you that, you'll be thinking you've done that now. You haven't, it takes longer than ten minutes. 15 at least.) :)

It's too early to worry just yet, give it a few miles and see how it settles.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 09:13:48 AM by enwri »
77 CB 750 k.. 29 years and counting.
91 TDM 850 (No.34) so comfy and soft
8? XJ 550 meh...
76 XL 350 Super Sport stump puller..
80 XR 200 idiot proof
75 MX 250 b dangerous

Offline AintNoEasyWay

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Re: 1977 CB750 K7 Resto-mod, Knoxville
« Reply #573 on: August 04, 2015, 10:10:29 AM »
Does the "smoke" hang around in the air or just sort of dissipate straight away, condensation of the hot moisture in the exhaust just disappears usually.
I'm loathe to mention that the float levels could be a millimetre or two lower going by the tube thing, 14.5 might suit better. (don't do it unless it winds up that it is a little rich and you can't adjust around it) ask Desert about the difference it made to his, he mentioned changing his to 14.5. (also stops slow weeping around the bowl gaskets if they're always just above the fuel level, unless it's on the sidestand.)
At least now you know setting the floats by measurement will be good enough to get a consistent level in all the bowls. 

It's got new stem seals, plus it's a fairly low mileage engine, guides shouldn't be gone yet, (and the head guy checked them too) new seals would cover even worn guides for a while.
 Keep an eye on the head to cylinder join for leaks if you're worried about the head gasket, but both of those surfaces were machined true, and with HD studs.

You can change the oil if you want, a little bit of old oil in the tank plus any carbon deposits in the cases will turn it all black pretty quick, doesn't necessarily mean it's no good.
Just curious, what oil did you end up using?

See what I meant about differing break in opinions, some hard, some gentle, I have always heard that big diesels idling for hours without load will polish the bores until they wont hold oil on the bore surface properly. (shouldn't have told you that, you'll be thinking you've done that now. You haven't, it takes longer than ten minutes. 15 at least.) :)

It's too early to worry just yet, give it a few miles and see how it settles.

Smoke dissipates, it doesn't linger. Just shoots straight out the exhaust & it's gone. I've been using Valvoline 10W-40 "designed" for motorcycles: http://www.walmart.com/ip/38691408?wmlspartner=wlpa&adid=22222222227026951916&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=56095181169&wl4=&wl5=pla&wl6=88701548169&veh=sem

Sorry for the long link. I'm not partial to it. I met a guy here in town that uses it in his CB550 & he recommended it. It's all I've used. I am totally open to using something else. It's kind of unfortunate that you can't find a decent answer about oil on this site anymore...

Offline enwri

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Re: 1977 CB750 K7 Resto-mod, Knoxville
« Reply #574 on: August 05, 2015, 08:19:28 AM »
About all I found is that anything designed for MC wont hurt the clutch, (no friction modifiers).
Low detergent mineral oil with a lot of zinc is good.
20-50 in warmer climates 10-40 for cold.
And a zinc additive can be used as well, apparently zinc levels in modern oils have dropped, but diesel engine oils still have more.
I found one here for diesels that even says its suitable for MC wet clutches. Little picture of a truck, tractor and a bike on it.

Hondaman mentions a type of oil in this thread, page 3. 

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,142794.50.html

What you're using will work fine. 20-50 is a bit thicker when hot than 10-40. 10-40 flows better when cold. never gets that cold here.
The zinc additive is good for sliding surfaces like cams and rockers, and gearboxes.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 08:24:14 AM by enwri »
77 CB 750 k.. 29 years and counting.
91 TDM 850 (No.34) so comfy and soft
8? XJ 550 meh...
76 XL 350 Super Sport stump puller..
80 XR 200 idiot proof
75 MX 250 b dangerous