Topic: low drop cafe bars

[750K]

Seriously,this forum does not have an ''Ignore posts by this user" feature? Bummer.

It does, go to your profile. Select account settings, in the left hand margins there's "buddy/ignore list". Go to "edit ignore list" and there you go.

[Geeto67]

clap-trap about leverage is just that, in my opinion: the leverage is determined by the width of the bars, Not the height or angle.

So by your logic and understanding of physics if you move the fulcrum of a see saw off center it should still take the same amount of force on each side to operate it as normal provided the total length of the see saw didn't change. Think about it for a second and see if that makes sense to you.

I understand what you are trying to say but you have it wrong. When you change bars you do not change the center of the fulcrum, angle has nothing to do with anything, it is length that matters or in this case, diameter or radius of an arc. So no your scenario doesn't make sense to me. If you lengthen one side of the seesaw, you have more leverage on the longer side, angle of the bar has nothing to do with it as long as the length of the arc stays the same. When you change the length of the bars you are not changing the center of the fulcrum, unless of course you mount them off center.

While that is true, moving the bars lower may be not be biomechanically efficient as you are not using the large core muscles as much, but even in an emergency push steering still works. Unless you are full out racing, this is more a comfort issue than anything.

You are separating the human element to make a technically correct physics argument, which in the context of motorcycles you cannot do and be correct for practicalicality's sake. When you change the angle of the bar you change the direction the force is coming from in relation to the pivot.

Also the angle of your ankle is crucial to your riding position, and in a more leaned forward position the stock pegs require a very sharp ankle angle to operate the controls. There is comfort from the standpoint of riding in the saddle all day and there is comfort from the standpoint of reducing the risk of carpal tunnel, tendinitis, lower back injury, repetitive stress injuries.

There are plenty of people who know their way around tools, can weld or fabricate anything, and are generally master craftsman and haven't the first clue about ergonomics. Just look at the chopper hobby, full of bikes that are master displays of how to bend metal with little to no regard to the position of the operator. I attended a lecture years ago by Kevin Cameron where he asserted that motorcycle ergonomics are the least understood area of engineering in motorcycling. I believe him and I think little has changed.

[solo 2]

Actually you explained it wrong mechanically in the first place and I also mentioned biomechanics being an issue to be truly correct, this is semantics. If you take any of this to the extreme whether it be angle, length or direction of force you can prove any arguement you have. The OP asked a simple question and you decided to turn it into a big lesson on what you know to be true, and you even talked to Kevin Cameron. When he can make a 40 year old CB750 handle like a Ducati 851(which is vilely uncomfortable) using ergonomics you let me know.

Anyway I'm done. To the OP, read and take away as much as you can from this and then decide what is right for you, if others don't think you're savvy, that is a reflection on them, not you.

[messeduptriple]

I was going to use clubman bars.. instead now I use clipons. I use Woodcraft race clipons.  They are fully adjustable and are the best of the best besides Vortex. I love them. Just tossin it out there.

[Retro Rocket]

Actually you explained it wrong mechanically in the first place and I also mentioned biomechanics being an issue to be truly correct, this is semantics. If you take any of this to the extreme whether it be angle, length or direction of force you can prove any arguement you have. The OP asked a simple question and you decided to turn it into a big lesson on what you know to be true, and you even talked to Kevin Cameron. When he can make a 40 year old CB750 handle like a Ducati 851(which is vilely uncomfortable) using ergonomics you let me know.

Anyway I'm done. To the OP, read and take away as much as you can from this and then decide what is right for you, if others don't think you're savvy, that is a reflection on them, not you.

Haha, I have ridden an 851 Ducati and it suited me well, I was younger then and more flexible but i also owned a GSXR 1100 J Slabbie which were also supposed to be uncomfortable to do any miles on and i fitted that bike like a glove, unlike the Katana which killed my wrists.. Don't underestimate just how well these bikes can be made to handle mate, down here in Oz we have the fastest 750/4 race bikes on the planet and they are extremely well balanced bikes, google Rex Wolfenden and Trex racing and check them out, also go into the Hipo section of the forum and look at cyclex's 750F race bike, it smashed quite a few records recently and handled very very well..... Just saying .

PS, there are far better handling bikes than the 851 so it may not have been the best example, by coincidence I recently read Alan Cathcarts full ride report from July 1988 and it wasn't the greatest endorsement of the bikes handling traits. {thanks for all the old bike mags Dave500 }

[solo 2]

I used the 851 as an example because I owned one so had first hand knowledge, to me it was like being strapped to the rack. Most uncomfortable bike I've ever owned, while I don't doubt a CB750 can be made to handle great, I don't think it would keep pace with an 851 with the same rider.

[Retro Rocket]

I used the 851 as an example because I owned one so had first hand knowledge, to me it was like being strapped to the rack. Most uncomfortable bike I've ever owned, while I don't doubt a CB750 can be made to handle great, I don't think it would keep pace with an 851 with the same rider.

Under most circumstances i would agree, go read the cyclex race reports in heavy weight super bike class, its in the hipo section or on the cyclex site, an RC 30  was about the only guy to out pace the 750/f they ran, RC30's handled better than the 851... The 750's pace limitations would be down to engine as well so its really a moot point, apples and oranges......

[andrewk]

I have to add that rearsets are more of a ground clearance, weight distribution than a comfort thing although they may allow some adjustability. I'm going to use them as more of an appearance option, stock foot position actually allows you to use the large muscles of the legs to offset some of the forward force of the clubmans. I've always preferred superbike bars myself, but as stated I'm going for a look. This may not be the most comfortable bike but I have no plans to ride it long distance.

All I was saying in the first place is this does not make anyone "unsavvy" and I know my way around tools/garages as well as anyone.

So go build your art bike cafe racer and quit trying to justify it to all of us who know better.  None of us really care, but those that know it's less than ideal will say something. (I did on page 1)  I'm surprised Geeto has the patience to keep repeating himself.

[Mattzilla]

my $.02

-mx bars for windless leisure riding though mountain twisties or ripping through the city
-clip-ons for the highway without a windshield (cause I'm cool)
-mx bars for the highway with a windshield
-stock pegs.

30 years old, 6'2", 36" inseam (the distance from seat to pegs is a bit of a regular complaint for me, but I like being able to reach the ground with both feet when I've got my SO on the back), bicycling on and off-road nonstop since '87, off-road motorcycling nonstop since '95, road motorcycling nonstop since '02.

The highway is where most of my motorcycling is done. I dislike the way crosswinds interact with either fork of frame mounted windshields/fairings. I really dislike the way the wind seems to want to push my head off of my shoulders with unless I'm leaning into it at an appropriate angle. Stock bars + leaning into 55-105 mph wind has my elbows at a very uncomfortable angle with way too much leverage over the front wheel. Even drag bars are a bit high and back for comfort at speed for me. Clip-ons put me at the-best-for-me position on my XS11 and my CB550 to keep my head on my neck. Really, the wind props me up such that my back does very little, if any work, to keep me "upright". I probably use my abs more than my back muscles while riding. I still have the stock bars on my "countryroad/city bike" which is a Bridgestone 100 that is rarely ridden faster than 60 mph.

I've tried imagining using rearsets, occasionally resting my feet (at all points, heel to toe) on the pass. pegs, and at all points on the main pegs. I naturally, probably from bicycling and off-roading on vintage bikes in my youth (that is all I could afford), have the ball of my feet on the stock pegs most of the time, especially when off-roading. There just isn't enough of a benefit for me to put in the work of installing rearsets (except to avoid the sighs and comments from those affiliated with racing ).

I really don't feel that it is too very unrelated- I'm usually in the drops on my road bicycle with the tops set just about level with my saddle. I'm usually getting at least a hundred miles on that every week.

.

Clip-ons and clubmans will still usually have your hands above the seat unless you have a giant seat.
I feel that clubmans are ugly as hell unless they're on a chopper and flipped.
I do agree that town, city and mountain-twistie handling are crap on a CB with low, slim bars.
Choose your horse for you course.

[750K]

Fixed gear bikes are #$%*ing lame, just needed to say that lol. Stupid hipsters...

[Harsh]

I can't believe I am going to add anything to this discussion, but here goes.

Geeto67...you have mentioned a few times about back injury due to bad ergonomics (or the like).  You have also said that you aren't doing your back any favors.   You asked that if one could show some science or real life experience that you would listen.  Well I have some.  Riding in a leaned forward position actually helps my lower back and my orthopedic doctor and physical therapist agree.  The stretched out position relieves the compression issue I have in my lower back which relieves the pain.  Both of my doctors were in a bit of shock when I told them that after I changed from a touring bike to a sport bike and my K4 with clubmans that my pain issues were getting better.  I dealt with the pain for 11 years when riding which limited my riding to an hour or so before it became more than I wanted to deal with.  I switched bike types in 2005 and I can now ride all day with no ill effects vice the hour or so I was only able to do before.

Take from it as you will, but (imho) your generalization about body position causing back problems isn't necessarily true.  Is my situation true for everybody...certainly not.  All I know is that my back feels substancially better and I was able to stave off back surgery.

[Mattzilla]

Fixed gear bikes are #$%*ing lame, just needed to say that lol. Stupid hipsters...

1) You didn't need to say that. See 3
2) I never said that it was a fixed gear. It's my winter road bicycle.
3) this is a discussion about handlebar placement, to which you've contributed nothing beyond a clear portrayal of your maturity. Go post to livejournal.
4) we're on a forum discussing modifying motorcycles. To the general public, all members of this forum are "stupid hipsters who should just grow up and get a corolla already"

Grow up.

[andrewk]

I think this website is useful for seeing how peg and bar position dictates how well you can control your body on the bike, as well as illustrate where your body weight will be borne.

http://cycle-ergo.com/

Has all kinds of bikes, puts a figure on it, and you can change the riding position of the figure to suit different arrangements.  If you put the figure in the position of passenger peg rear sets and clubman bars on any CB, it's quite easy to see how the position could only be comfortable if you're accelerating because all the weight of the torso is on the pelvis and the arms.  If you go the the "brat cafe" style, with a thinny seat, oem foot controls and clubmans and it's pretty easy to see how that might not be too comfortable if you have an inseam longer than 28, feet still in front of you, but now you have to bend at the hips more, and more weight is on the front side of your pelvis rather than your seat bones, and your feet are not in the most effective position to move your body.  All these positions are tolerable for awhile, until you need to stand up on the pegs to soak up a pothole you can't miss, or make a harsh maneuver.

I'm not saying that there's one right way to set up a bike.  But rather that the considerations are more than comfort, looks and opinions about long term health.   

The bottom line (to me) is, that comfort and all those other things are a part of riding position, but (and maybe to a greater extent) so is control.  The bike has to fit you, and it will be the most comfortable (in stock frame form) and controllable and if your feet are in a position to help either bear or shift your weight, and your body is slightly leaned forward. (less than 20 degrees for me)  Whether or not you want to believe that is up to you (everyone), but if you were to experience the difference back to back, I bet some jaws would drop around here.  A properly setup bike is a joy to ride.

Carry on!

[750K]

Fixed gear bikes are #$%*ing lame, just needed to say that lol. Stupid hipsters...

1) You didn't need to say that. See 3
2) I never said that it was a fixed gear. It's my winter road bicycle.
3) this is a discussion about handlebar placement, to which you've contributed nothing beyond a clear portrayal of your maturity. Go post to livejournal.
4) we're on a forum discussing modifying motorcycles. To the general public, all members of this forum are "stupid hipsters who should just grow up and get a corolla already"

Grow up.

Inreply:
1) Yes, yes it did need to be said...
2) Looks like a fixie to me, be careful to not ger the laces of your Redwings caught in the chain...
3) Exactly, motorcycle handle bars. Stick to the subject, motorcycles and bicycles are two different things. Put those bars on you M/C and get back to me lol.
4) See 3

Have a good #$%*ing day.

[andrewk]

I naturally, probably from bicycling and off-roading on vintage bikes in my youth (that is all I could afford), have the ball of my feet on the stock pegs most of the time, especially when off-roading.

Rear set position on these bikes for most people doesn't need to be extreme.  When you're on the balls of your feet on stock pegs the arch of your foot is about where you want the rear set control.  You probably feel quite comfortable pushing on the ball of your foot and not the arch from cycling, but a secondary thing happening here is that you're getting better leverage with your legs to support your body weight, rather than your feet being in the factory forward postion (I call it "the chair") which makes you feel all the more confident.

Problem is, when the balls of your feet are on the pegs, you can't hit the controls.   Adapting to pushing with the arch of your foot will probably be awkward, but necessary for proper control in city traffic, IMO.

[Mattzilla]

Inreply:
1) Yes, yes it did need to be said...
2) Looks like a fixie to me, be careful to not ger the laces of your Redwings caught in the chain...
3a) Exactly, motorcycle handle bars. Stick to the subject, motorcycles and bicycles are two different things. 3b) Put those bars on you M/C and get back to me lol.
4) See 3

Have a good #$%*ing day.

1) to your therapist, not to anybody concerned about two-wheeled ergonomics
2) your problem. It's just a bicycle. Workboots? Too butthurt by some bicyclist in your life (who is not me, btw) to properly spell "yer", let alone "your"?
3) two wheels, hundreds of miles at a time, many times into headwinds exceeding 40mph... you're incorrect.

Cussing with math symbols. Unbunch your panties. I have done nothing to you. 


AndrewWK- it would ve awesome if you were the Andrew WK;). anyways, yeah, I'd adapted my riding for the shifter and brake use long ago when I still wore size 7s and was relegated to the dirt, so yeah, that portion of my take on ergos likely applies to very few. On the street, as I rarely ride in the rain, I so seldom use the rear brake that it wouldn't matter much if I couldn't reach it, and the dimensions of my feet (long monkey-finger toes) make reaching the controls from the (?) ball position a non-issue on most bikes including the three that I regularly use.

[greenjeans]

I think a little of what makes a comfortable riding position comes from your youth.   I grew up riding a ton BMX and a neighbors YZ80 when my parents weren't looking.  Graduated to road riding and mountain bikes in college.  Didn't get a motorcyle until I was out from under my parents roof and almost done with college.  By then, my feel on 2 wheels was cemented.  No matter how many miles I ride, I still like pegs, pedals etc on the balls of my feet and almost directly underneath me.   Road bikes really force a leaned forward position that I still don't really like.   I road a CB750 for a while with clip-ons and std pegs.  Took a little grief, didn't really bother me because it felt fine.   Now, at least for my CB750, I have my riding position dialed in.  I made some rearsets that aren't nearly as far back as most - perhaps 2" max.  It was mainly to help out with my size 13 boots.   I ride superbike/euro bike bars on my daily rider and some clipons on my current build.   I'll still use the rear passenger pegs for wide open highway riding - if nothing else for a change of pace.  I'm a BMX at heart and probably never do well racing - I'd want to stand up at some point and get blown off the back of the bike 

Now the real question:  Is there anyone that makes an easily adjustible rearset for dudes over 6' tall with big feet ?

P.S.  Nice bike Mattzilla.  Never was a fixie guy, but I do like a good SS with brakes and a freewheel.  Anybody that will ride in the snow is OK with me.

[andrewk]

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/lifestyle/use-your-rear-brake-motorcycle/  (See also: http://www.stevemunden.com/braking.html)

Rear brakes, use 'em people. This "no rear brake unless you're in the rain" stuff is silly, IMO.

Learn to control your bike to its fullest extent, that's all I'm going to say.  Poor form is still poor form, no matter how normal it feels. 

[Retro Rocket]

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/lifestyle/use-your-rear-brake-motorcycle/  (See also: http://www.stevemunden.com/braking.html)

Rear brakes, use 'em people. This "no rear brake unless you're in the rain" stuff is silly, IMO.

Learn to control your bike to its fullest extent, that's all I'm going to say.  Poor form is still poor form, no matter how normal it feels.

Who the hell said "no rear brake unless you're in the rain", thats the worst time to rely on the rear brake, and when i say "rely" i mean, most people "react" before thinking and by that time the rear is already locked and your on a hiding to no where, sliding down the road wondering what the hell happened...... Like Scott Russel said in that video in one of those links, " Rear brake use depends on the situation" and that is exactly right, my rear brake gets most use when riding 2 up due to the increased weight over the rear wheel and for slow car park speeds to aid in stability, its a bit of an art form using a rear brake correctly, the ones that scare me are the ones that think the rear brake is their main brake, now thats scary... ....

[Mattzilla]

Though it should be saved for another thread entirely, I wouldn't want any beginner to novice riders to read this thread and come away thinking that the "no rear brake except in the rain" statement was anything but hyperbole, nor that relying on only one brake is ever recommended or practiced by anyone who truly has total control of their machine- it really was just a hyperbolic, humorless joke in bad taste. My apologies. Riding in all road, traffic and weather conditions with and without variables such as having a passenger and/or cargo very much requires careful consideration and sense of feel to balance the braking of both wheels to effectively keep the shiny side up.

[bustedknuckles]

Regarding the personal issues about semantics, manners, etc... it happens on every forum everywhere, plays out the same way, and is old hat.  Nothing to see here...

As for riding positions, I've had a series of old bikes in various incarnations of riding positions.  My fav was a CB350F that was a full racing cafe mod with clip-ons and rearsets.  The bike was a little small for me, but was set up right and handled like a dream. 

I've also done the quasi-cafe.  Clubmans and stock pegs.  Why?  Because I had no dough and could get cheap bars but couldn't afford the rearsets.  On long stretches, I'd drop my feet to the passenger pegs.  Don't do this!  I was cool.  I didn't mind not having access to brakes or shifter.  And by cool, I mean young and dumb.  Having to change riding position to deal with a change of situation adds another variable into a potentially scary mix. 

 Dropped, short bars (clubman or clip-ons) lend themselves to a lower, more horizontal riding position for most people.  I won't say that you can't be comfortable in a dropped bar/stock pegs position, but, for me, it klind of defeats the purpose.  I'm going with the "bars are cheap, rearsets are spendy" reasoning for most of the quasi-cafes I see out there. 

I'm rebuilding my CB750 right now and will probably build a cafe seat and use clip-ons.  I'm also thinking about building my own rearsets.  I can weld, so I figure it can't be that tough, and I can fit them to my riding position.  We shall see.  I need to get the motor back together before I sweat that stuff too much.