Author Topic: K2/K5 Drag project  (Read 109080 times)

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Offline Tintop

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Re: K5 Race bike/K2 Landspeed
« Reply #575 on: May 04, 2015, 04:06:02 PM »

My take is the bogging is more of an issue with your left clutch hand and the minimal horsepower your engine is NOW producing while trying to spin the rear tire on that sticky #$%* you can hardly walk on. MUCH different than normal asphalt. Your gearing is ALREADY 1 to 2 down up front and 2 up on the rear! You saw what happened that one run when it did break loose. I'd like to see what gear and rpm you are at at the 1320 with the 16/50.

That would be my take on the situation.  I know getting a good start with the sidecar (two up, and 60hp) took a lot of tries to find the right mix of rpm, and clutch control to avoid bogging (or killing it ::)), and overheating the clutch through slipping it.
1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
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1976 CB400 SS - stock / BOTM 04/11 (SOLD)
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Offline NalleyRacing

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Re: K5 Race bike/K2 Landspeed
« Reply #576 on: May 04, 2015, 04:09:44 PM »
Very close..

I have been able to get the bikes weight down to under 420lbs. My goal from the beginning was to see what the stock displacement and camshaft would produce. 11.99 @ 105+ MPH is what I dreamed of it producing.

I have yet to even see a 13.xx pass on it, but I know once the bike and myself are dialed in 12's will not be an issue. My main priority is just to find out what the machine will consistently do. Honestly the slower I dial the better chance I have in bracket racing but I won't be satisfied until I get that 12.xx @ 100mph+

Offline gschuld

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Re: K5 Race bike/K2 Landspeed
« Reply #577 on: May 04, 2015, 04:21:27 PM »
Jerry,
 
I believe that Trey mentioned that he was pulling 4th gear all the way through the line, and found shifting into 5th only slowed his ET and MPH.  There isn't a lot of data to go on yet, but I would guess that he is crossing the line in the 1/4 at around 7500 to 8500rpm in 4th gear at around 90mph.  If that's the case, and he's pulling 2.2 to 2.4 60ft, I would ...assume ...that as long as he can get traction off the line he could get better 60ft times with a lower gear ratio and use the now needed 5th gear through 95+mph at the big end. 

Timeslips, for reference, are from testing before the Commerce event(left lane).

TurboD, did you get the PM I sent you?

Trey,

Good luck with the 1/4 mile track.   That would be a big help for your test and tune practice. 

Offline gschuld

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Re: K5 Race bike/K2 Landspeed
« Reply #578 on: May 04, 2015, 07:09:02 PM »
Trey,

    Luckily, there is a bunch of old magazine articles with drag strip stats that may be used as reference.  If I have this right, you have a basically dead stock 1974? cb750 with a serious effort made to reduce weight (to 420lbs correct?) from +/- 510lbs.  And you are currently running 16/50 (3.12) and are running in the neighborhood of 2.2 60ft, and low 14s at 90mph?

   As a reference, Bob Braverman did a series of articles(7 part series ...Trey, you know of what I speak :) ) based on a dead stock 1973 cb750 and went through MANY steps all the way out, several articles later, to a RC Engineering built 1000cc motor and lightened the bike to 399lbs with oil/no gas.

They started by running the dead stock 1973 (110 main jets) bike, stock 341 exhaust, 18/48 (2.66) gearing and all, and ran 13.8 at 97.50 mph
Then they dropped the gearing to 17/48 (2.82) (still 110 main jets) and ran 13.68 at 97.33 mph
Then they swapped in an Action Fours 4 into 2 exhaust (still 110 main jets) and ran 13.44 at 99.80mph

Now, as the 1973 is basically identical to the 1974 model performance wise stock, this should be a good baseline reference.

For some reason, they were running lower ETs and higher mph than you carrying another +/- 90lbs bike weight (420 vs 510).
This suggests to me that your stock motor is ...perhaps ...putting out less power than a fresh off the showroom motor. High 13s were the norm in dead stock trim during that period.

That (wonderful, BTW) 90lbs your bike has lost may well give you a +/- .3 to .4 ET advantage over a dead stock weight bike.  That perhaps would have put the above dead stock 13.8 into the 13.4 to 13.5 ET range at about 100mph.  Reducing the same amount from the stock bike with added Action Fours 4 into 2 exhaust and 17/48 gearing time of 13.44 at 99.8mph your 90lb lighter bike should be in the range of 13.04 to 13.14 at 102mph or so.

It would be interesting to see how your bike would run with 17/48 gearing just for an apples to apples comparison.  If you are way off the mark 
of low 13s at 100mph (given a good 60ft) with 17/48 gears and 110 main jets, I would think that your stock motor is no longer making 1974 stock power for some reason.

It's probably not fair to expect your 40 year old motor to still put out what it once did.  Rings get old, pistons/cylinder walls get worn, compression drops a bit, valves get carboned up and loose their perfect seal, etc, etc. 

FWIW, by the end of the part 1 article, they had an Action Fours 811 kit installed, Champion RG505 plugs, Kenny Harmon "D" grind cam, velocity stacks, megaphone exhaust, 16/51 (3.18) gearing, and ran 11.99 at 110mph at about 490lbs bike weight.  Not bad... 

George
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 07:24:58 PM by gschuld »

Offline seanbarney41

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Re: K5 Race bike/K2 Landspeed
« Reply #579 on: May 04, 2015, 07:44:48 PM »
What's really not fair is comparing Trey's riding ability to whatever pro/very experienced rider the magazine article used...and I am not knocking Trey's riding ability.  Stock 750's have to be one of the hardest bikes to launch ever made.  The dividing line between lugging it off the line and spinning the wheel is very fine indeed.  At least with stock power levels, big scary wheelies are not much of a concern.
     Trey, I have probably made over 20 dragstrip passes, but all in one day.  And my reaction times/60fts. were certainly no better than yours.  Over the course of the day I got my ET's down from low 15's to a best of 14.1 knockin' on the ton's door, but I never really got the hang of launching, nor did my rt's/60 ft.s improve.  The bike was more set up for back road cornering, guessing around 440lbs(for some reason, the track would not turn on the scales that day, much to my chagrin), basically stock motor with a poorly maintained 45,000 miles on it, so yeah, kinda tired
     So, the first 60ft. is what you gotta work on to get those et's down...practice, practice, practice. 
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline dragracer

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Re: K5 Race bike/K2 Landspeed
« Reply #580 on: May 04, 2015, 07:53:49 PM »
 Trey,  TurboD is correct about clutch and throttle management. The shorter the wheel base of the bike, the more your hand clutch comes into play. I wish i could post one of my go pro video's on here to show what he's talking about. You can somewhat see and hear what its like to launch a bike at a higher rpm than you're attempting to leave. IF you go on my FB timeline you can view a few of the passes from saturday. You do have to slide the clutch out slowly while concentrating on going full throttle as soon as the bike starts to move if you expect to get your 60' times down, regardless of the gearing on the bike. It important not to gear too low on a short bike or it will tend to wheelie really bad off the hit. And as it was stated, overgearing it will only shorten the life of the stock engine. We're bracket racing so try to be conservative and save the bike without focusing on running some low numbers. Once you get an engine with some good rods in it, gear the crap out of it and make it scream all the way down the track.

Again, my advice is to spend time figure out how to be more aggressive in launching the bike. The ET will drop considerably. You can't leave at idle and expect to get a decent 60'. I found out on my stock K model with stock wheel base that if i could leave the line as hard as possible, it put a lot of distance between me and the bike chasing me. More often than not, they would either redlight or break out trying to catch me. Your next move should be extending the wheel base of the bike and getting it as low as you can, prior to putting a big motor on the chassis.

In comparison to your 60's times, on this past saturday I had several 1.46, 60' times and ran 6.57-6.60 @100-101mph in the 1/8th. I only posted my times to let you know that practice with the clutch and a bigger engine with a more drag race oriented chassis makes a huge difference than what you'll ever get from a stock bike. I wish you were closer or i had more time to spend with you when we do go racing to at least share my limited experience on rcing one of these SOHC's. Its a bit different than the other bikes i race but basically the concept is the same. Lower the 60' time and the ET will also drop. Don't concentrate on the mph and don't over rev the engine down track.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 08:04:40 PM by dragracer »

Offline NalleyRacing

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Re: K5 Race bike/K2 Landspeed
« Reply #581 on: May 04, 2015, 07:56:21 PM »
Granted this motor is a 1975, said to have a lower profile cam than earlier models. It is 40 years old but with only 8,000 original miles when we started.

A few differences between my bike and the one we read about in the series are the 4:1 pipe, Electronic ignition with hot coils, but ALSO the velocity stacks and gearing changed with a stock set up. They had already gone to the 811 kit and cam by the time they added these last two features.

I have found that my jetting varies between 115 & 120 depending on elevation and weather. I have also been making changes to the tuning between events. Keep in mind how rich I was running(135!) during practice at Commerce. And that was with stock gearing.

As POPS says seat time and data get win slips. I'll be hitting the track again this Friday at Little River.

You are spot on Frankie. I watched the video you sent a dozen times already trying to listen to every move. Launching is just something I am going to have to get comfortable with over time through practice which I am going to try to do once a week. That 60' is what everyone talks about and aside from R/T its my main focus right now.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 08:01:00 PM by TreyAllen »

Offline dragracer

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Re: K5 Race bike/K2 Landspeed
« Reply #582 on: May 04, 2015, 08:09:48 PM »
Granted this motor is a 1975, said to have a lower profile cam than earlier models. It is 40 years old but with only 8,000 original miles when we started.

A few differences between my bike and the one we read about in the series are the 4:1 pipe, Electronic ignition with hot coils, but ALSO the velocity stacks and gearing changed with a stock set up. They had already gone to the 811 kit and cam by the time they added these last two features.

I have found that my jetting varies between 115 & 120 depending on elevation and weather. I have also been making changes to the tuning between events. Keep in mind how rich I was running(135!) during practice at Commerce. And that was with stock gearing.

As POPS says seat time and data get win slips. I'll be hitting the track again this Friday at Little River.

You are spot on Frankie. I watched the video you sent a dozen times already trying to listen to every move. Launching is just something I am going to have to get comfortable with over time through practice which I am going to try to do once a week. That 60' is what everyone talks about and aside from R/T its my main focus right now.

I just sent you another video. It show the clutch lever and throttle better and how i launch my bike. Sorry, no tach to show the rpm's but the shift light is set at 10,000rpm.

Offline gschuld

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Re: K5 Race bike/K2 Landspeed
« Reply #583 on: May 04, 2015, 08:21:53 PM »
Hey now, I'm not knocking anyone's driving skills.  Sorry if it came out that way.  Bob Braverman was indeed a very experienced rider, and he drag strip tested many factory bikes for articles back then.  So he had plenty of practice getting the most out of a stock setup (and more than stock) bike.  That was part of the reason I found the article so useful.  But as far as references, there were plenty of magazine articles done back then.  Drag strip testing of dead stock cb750 K3s and K4s consistently were in the high 13s to very low 14s in the higher 90s mph.  My point was that his motor simply may not be putting out the same power as it did 40 years ago.  So that should be taken into consideration when he formulates his performance expectations.

George

     

Offline dragracer

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Re: K5 Race bike/K2 Landspeed
« Reply #584 on: May 04, 2015, 10:21:03 PM »
This is a time slip from the race last month. Note the 60' Trey. Its all about throttle and clutch management.

By the way, my bike has a slightly raked front end and a 12" over, extended  stock swingarm so its easier to launch at a higher rpm than your bike. Don't try to compare apples to oranges.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 10:55:59 PM by dragracer »

Offline POPS 911

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Re: K5 Race bike/K2 Landspeed
« Reply #585 on: May 05, 2015, 03:03:08 AM »
gschuld :  Where was MR. Braverman doing all this testing , what was the DA , blacktop + concrete or all concrete track, what type fuel , head wind or tail wind , in drag racing motorcycles you will buy a stacks of gears but in the end you will have a set for 1/8 mile and another set for the 1/4 mile.  If Mr.Braveman would have been doing that test at Englishtown when the DA is MINUS 345' then those number would really be the bottom line for the 750 SOHC.  Memphis could be a small minus on the right day = numbers be better.  TURBO great answers and advice = TREY listen to him and Frank ....................

Offline gschuld

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Re: K5 Race bike/K2 Landspeed
« Reply #586 on: May 05, 2015, 04:15:46 AM »
The strip testing for that initial article was done at the famed Orange County Raceway in Irvine California(closed down in 1983) during the period of April through May, 1973.  I'm pretty sure it was asphalt.

http://www.nhra.com/blog/dragster-insider/2008/10/31/33703/

George

Offline dragracer

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Re: K5 Race bike/K2 Landspeed
« Reply #587 on: May 05, 2015, 08:37:06 AM »
Trey, you've now got me interested in prepping my stock K8 to see what type of ET i can get from the short wheelbase, foot shifting it. Its been sitting for 10 years or better.

Offline NalleyRacing

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Re: K5 Race bike/K2 Landspeed
« Reply #588 on: May 05, 2015, 12:17:16 PM »
Sometimes its more fun to keep it simple. I'm glad to hear that Frankie.. I have always been interested to see how far the stock setup can go. Today, I managed to lower the front end of my bike another 2" to make it perfectly flat across the frame rails.. My exhaust is now 2" from the ground  ;D
« Last Edit: May 05, 2015, 09:57:17 PM by TreyAllen »

Offline dragracer

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Re: K5 Race bike/K2 Landspeed
« Reply #589 on: May 05, 2015, 12:51:38 PM »
Sometimes its more fun to keep it simple. I'm glad to head that Frankie.. I have always been interested to see how far the stock setup can go. Today, I managed to lower the front end of my bike another 2" to make it perfectly flat across the frame rails.. My exhaust is now less than 2" from the ground  ;D

Arrrgh, 2" rule, 2" rule!!! You need 2 inches of ground clearance to the lowest part of the bike to be legal for IHRA, NHRA and Man Cup. And that's with you sitting on the bike. Sidewinder time my friend!!!

Offline dragracer

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Re: K5 Race bike/K2 Landspeed
« Reply #590 on: May 05, 2015, 01:00:46 PM »
By the way, I think I ran mid 13's on my 78k model years ago. I was maybe 125-130 lbs at the time. I doubt i'll break into the 13's at this point. The bike has about 15,0xx miles on it now. The carbs need cleaning, it needs new tires and goodness know what else, but I'm going to see if I can get it ready for the Memphis race and toss it on the back of the truck. All else fails, we'll have a crusty, rusty,dusty back up bike in case one of the other SOHC's breaks.

Offline POPS 911

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Re: K5 Race bike/K2 Landspeed
« Reply #591 on: May 11, 2015, 07:38:44 AM »
TREY:  Mr.Braveman could have weigh 145lbs. in leathers, your not him............. so BRACKET RACE you bike on your own scale, no RED LIGHTS, start in first gear,  get that best reaction time, most times those skinny kids on modern FI 4CYL. bikes will be running 9's and trying to run you down, and with you the best reaction time you got the advantage and they break out more, let them take the stripe and keep pushing them out for that win ticket.  You got the want and now you earn the SKILLS = get a lane.

Offline NalleyRacing

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Re: K5 Race bike/K2 Landspeed
« Reply #592 on: May 11, 2015, 07:57:16 AM »
Your reading my mind Pops.. ill never forget the look on the guys face from Japan who was running a dialed 9 and broke out(8.992) trying to catch me! Second round,no buy backs!  ;D

From that moment I knew I had the advantage and a chance in competing against these skilled racers with bikes and investments reaching small fortunes. While I sit back with my 40 year old bike, spare parts, and a wrench in my hand..

I keep having things pop up and haven't been able to make it to the track for test and tune. Hope to get a few runs in before the Memphis race!
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 08:02:27 AM by TreyAllen »

Offline dragracer

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Re: K5 Race bike/K2 Landspeed
« Reply #593 on: May 11, 2015, 11:06:03 AM »
Seat time, seat time, seat time. Very important to a beginning racer to hone his skills as much as possible. You'll get there my friend. You've got the desire- the rest will come.

Offline POPS 911

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Re: K5 Race bike/K2 Landspeed
« Reply #594 on: May 12, 2015, 05:08:26 AM »
Trey:  When I first seen this Big Old Boy on a 750 HONDAMATIC at a IDBA race I was at I laugh !!!! At the end of the day this Big Smile Guy on the MATIC was in the finals, knocking off many KZ and GS street bike great racers, that were dead on the numbers w/many years on the 1320'.  My mistake was taking this odd bike out of the game = HE WON STREET BIKE CLASS that day at NORWALK with a deep field [ NO BUY BACKS ] of street and track racers = his name was CHAD INSLEY the real HONDAMATIC 750 MAN  ......... yes he has won many rounds at MEMPHIS and many rounds at DIV.3 NHRA FINALSPOINTS RACE at INDY .....  Not the fastest, but the DEADLIST on that 1320'.  See you down the road, remember it's a BRACKET RACE.

POPS BK911



Offline NalleyRacing

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Re: K5 Race bike/K2 Landspeed
« Reply #595 on: May 12, 2015, 05:35:59 AM »
Yes sir! I had the pleasure of meeting Chad and watching him race the matic at SGMP last month. And on Friday when I was at the staging lanes by myself, he came up and talked with me a bit. Really nice guy,  heard his name on the loud speaker all weekend!

Can't wait for Memphis,not much longer now
« Last Edit: May 12, 2015, 07:07:14 AM by TreyAllen »

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: K5 Race bike/K2 Landspeed
« Reply #596 on: May 12, 2015, 11:40:07 AM »
Trey, how'd he end up? I never saw him race.
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline NalleyRacing

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Re: K5 Race bike/K2 Landspeed
« Reply #597 on: May 13, 2015, 02:53:47 PM »
This is Chad's bike in its current state.  ;D Still waiting for them to post the results Jerry. All other classes have have points updated except St.ET,ProET,and V-twin.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2015, 02:55:48 PM by TreyAllen »

Offline NalleyRacing

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Re: K5 Race bike/K2 Landspeed
« Reply #598 on: June 12, 2015, 08:59:49 AM »
Trailer is loaded and I'm finishing up a few things on the K5 before the first test and tune at my home track! Only 15 miles from my house!

This track was closed 6 months ago for what seemed to be for good. In the last 6 weeks there has been alot of work done and today is opening day!


I love time slips  ;D
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 12:41:58 PM by TreyAllen »

Offline bwaller

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Re: K5 Race bike/K2 Landspeed
« Reply #599 on: June 12, 2015, 10:54:29 AM »
Practise within 15 minutes of home........priceless. Good luck Trey.