Author Topic: Grind/Clunk into Second  (Read 6578 times)

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Offline evanphi

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Grind/Clunk into Second
« on: May 08, 2014, 10:30:41 AM »
Everyone knows about the big ol' clunk you get when shifting into first at the start of the day. No biggie.

My problem is that when I shift into second, I get a grinding sound/feeling through the shifter before it locks into second gear. 3-5 are no problem. Am I getting too high in first, causing all the gearing to spin on its own? Adjust the clutch? I just changed the oil (Castrol 10W40 Dinosaur Bones) and it still happens.

I also noticed that even when the clutch is completely disengaged (lever pulled in), the rear wheel spins when up on the centre stand and I can't stop it with my hand. It does not spin when in neutral. I know this would be remedied by adjusting my clutch. Maybe it is because the oil is just cold? I last noticed this when I had just started up the bike without taking it for a ride to warm up the oil. I should check it again with a warm engine, yes?

Are these issues related?
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 10:33:23 AM by evanphi »
--Evan

1975 CB750K "Rhonda"
Delkevic Stainless 4-1 Header, Cone Engineering 18" Quiet Core Reverse Cone, K&N Filter in Drilled Airbox
K5 Crankcase/Frame, K4 Head and Cylinders, K1 Carbs (42;120;1 Turn)

She's a mix-matched (former) basket case, but she's mine.

CB750 Shop Manual (all years), searchable text PDF
Calculating the correct input circumference for digital speedometers connected to the original speedometer drive

Offline nccb

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Re: Grind/Clunk into Second
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2014, 11:18:19 AM »
I think you need to properly adjust your clutch.  If that wheel is spinning at all, it should just barely be moving which I have heard is a symptom of too much oil.  IDK why that is but I feel like I read that on here somewhere. . .

Offline evanphi

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Re: Grind/Clunk into Second
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2014, 11:33:02 AM »
I think you need to properly adjust your clutch.  If that wheel is spinning at all, it should just barely be moving which I have heard is a symptom of too much oil.  IDK why that is but I feel like I read that on here somewhere. . .

I have the correct amount, right between the marks on the dipstick. Drained it from bag, case, and filter completely, and then added 3L.
--Evan

1975 CB750K "Rhonda"
Delkevic Stainless 4-1 Header, Cone Engineering 18" Quiet Core Reverse Cone, K&N Filter in Drilled Airbox
K5 Crankcase/Frame, K4 Head and Cylinders, K1 Carbs (42;120;1 Turn)

She's a mix-matched (former) basket case, but she's mine.

CB750 Shop Manual (all years), searchable text PDF
Calculating the correct input circumference for digital speedometers connected to the original speedometer drive

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Grind/Clunk into Second
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2014, 11:35:16 AM »
Everyone knows about the big ol' clunk you get when shifting into first at the start of the day. No biggie.

My problem is that when I shift into second, I get a grinding sound/feeling through the shifter before it locks into second gear. 3-5 are no problem. Am I getting too high in first, causing all the gearing to spin on its own? Adjust the clutch? I just changed the oil (Castrol 10W40 Dinosaur Bones) and it still happens.

I also noticed that even when the clutch is completely disengaged (lever pulled in), the rear wheel spins when up on the centre stand and I can't stop it with my hand. It does not spin when in neutral. I know this would be remedied by adjusting my clutch. Maybe it is because the oil is just cold? I last noticed this when I had just started up the bike without taking it for a ride to warm up the oil. I should check it again with a warm engine, yes?

Are these issues related?

The clutches in these bikes are wet clutches: even when the engine is warmed up and the bike is on the stand, the rear wheel will spin when it is in gear with the clutch pulled in. The plates never actually disengage, like dry clutches do. Rather, when the spring pressure is removed they let the oil from the little grooves between the corks get out, which lubes the face of the cork-steel contact surface. There are also tiny dimples on the steel plates that hold some oil to help the quickness of this disengagement, to improve shifting speed. When the clutch is released, the oil must slip into the dimples and those grooves between the cork, or out of the way altogether, to engage the clutch again.

If you have a CB750, don't use 10w40 oil except in cool weather (less than 20 degrees C or 50 degrees F). The oil gets too thin in the bearings of the crank and the gear splines, which makes the crank wear faster and the gearbox stiff to shift.

If the 2nd gear fork is a little bit bent, or if the dogs on the C5 gear are rounded from too much shifting with too light oils (and the resulting drag which reduces dog depth penetration to the C2 gear), the shift into 2nd gear can be clatter-y like a ratchet until it engages. If it stays in gear under power, you're in good shape: if it tries to jump out of 2nd gear under heavy throttle, then maybe consider taking the gearbox out next winter and have APE fix up the C2-C5 gear dogs/slots for you: this costs about $300 with (US) shipping both ways. In the meantime, if it becomes a nuisance with jumping out of 2nd, just do like many other bikes that suffer this: wind up 1st gear a little more, then double-shift to 3rd. I know at least one chopper rider who did this for many years (12, to be exact) until he sent me his engine. :)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Grind/Clunk into Second
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2014, 11:42:13 AM »
Oh, one other thing: AVOID using automotive oils like Castrol, Valvoline, Havoline, or other "high detergent, removes sludge" oils in these engines. They foam like dish soap, which drops the lubrication up to 70% at any one point in the gearbox. This is where most of these issues start.

Instead, use diesel oils, like 15w40 or 20w50 weight, made for diesel engines. Is you use the "modern" Castrol 4T "motorcycle oils", then get some ZDDP additive (a couple of ounces per 4 quarts is enough) and add it to the oil. These bikes were made when ZDDP (zinc) was heavily part of the oils, which reduced the sudsing of the detergents and simultaneously coated the sliding surfaces with zinc plating, a most excellent lubrication. But, thanks largely to BMW's (and other's) platinum catalysts in their catalytic convertors on cars, the zinc has been removed from oil so it won't [potentially, if the engine is worn out] coat and inert the platinum. don't get me started on the political corruption in the US EPA that allowed/caused this to happen, or this will become a banned thread...  >:(
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline evanphi

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Re: Grind/Clunk into Second
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2014, 11:46:19 AM »
Everyone knows about the big ol' clunk you get when shifting into first at the start of the day. No biggie.

My problem is that when I shift into second, I get a grinding sound/feeling through the shifter before it locks into second gear. 3-5 are no problem. Am I getting too high in first, causing all the gearing to spin on its own? Adjust the clutch? I just changed the oil (Castrol 10W40 Dinosaur Bones) and it still happens.

I also noticed that even when the clutch is completely disengaged (lever pulled in), the rear wheel spins when up on the centre stand and I can't stop it with my hand. It does not spin when in neutral. I know this would be remedied by adjusting my clutch. Maybe it is because the oil is just cold? I last noticed this when I had just started up the bike without taking it for a ride to warm up the oil. I should check it again with a warm engine, yes?

Are these issues related?

The clutches in these bikes are wet clutches: even when the engine is warmed up and the bike is on the stand, the rear wheel will spin when it is in gear with the clutch pulled in. The plates never actually disengage, like dry clutches do. Rather, when the spring pressure is removed they let the oil from the little grooves between the corks get out, which lubes the face of the cork-steel contact surface. There are also tiny dimples on the steel plates that hold some oil to help the quickness of this disengagement, to improve shifting speed. When the clutch is released, the oil must slip into the dimples and those grooves between the cork, or out of the way altogether, to engage the clutch again.

If you have a CB750, don't use 10w40 oil except in cool weather (less than 20 degrees C or 50 degrees F). The oil gets too thin in the bearings of the crank and the gear splines, which makes the crank wear faster and the gearbox stiff to shift.

If the 2nd gear fork is a little bit bent, or if the dogs on the C5 gear are rounded from too much shifting with too light oils (and the resulting drag which reduces dog depth penetration to the C2 gear), the shift into 2nd gear can be clatter-y like a ratchet until it engages. If it stays in gear under power, you're in good shape: if it tries to jump out of 2nd gear under heavy throttle, then maybe consider taking the gearbox out next winter and have APE fix up the C2-C5 gear dogs/slots for you: this costs about $300 with (US) shipping both ways. In the meantime, if it becomes a nuisance with jumping out of 2nd, just do like many other bikes that suffer this: wind up 1st gear a little more, then double-shift to 3rd. I know at least one chopper rider who did this for many years (12, to be exact) until he sent me his engine. :)

Once it is in second, there is no problem staying there. This is a good sign, yeah?

Here on the east coast of Canada, through the summer Mid-20s Celsius is around normal. I am a Early-Spring/Summer/Into-late-fall rider... should I just stick with 20W50 instead of 10W40?
--Evan

1975 CB750K "Rhonda"
Delkevic Stainless 4-1 Header, Cone Engineering 18" Quiet Core Reverse Cone, K&N Filter in Drilled Airbox
K5 Crankcase/Frame, K4 Head and Cylinders, K1 Carbs (42;120;1 Turn)

She's a mix-matched (former) basket case, but she's mine.

CB750 Shop Manual (all years), searchable text PDF
Calculating the correct input circumference for digital speedometers connected to the original speedometer drive

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Grind/Clunk into Second
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2014, 01:37:49 PM »
Everyone knows about the big ol' clunk you get when shifting into first at the start of the day. No biggie.
This is a sign the clutch is dragging.  It's a big deal to me.  As clutch issues lead to transmission and shifter issues.

My problem is that when I shift into second, I get a grinding sound/feeling through the shifter before it locks into second gear.
Takes more time to transition from 1-n-2 than the rest of the gears transitions.  A dragging clutch has more time to drive the gear train and force misalignment.

3-5 are no problem. Am I getting too high in first, causing all the gearing to spin on its own? Adjust the clutch? I just changed the oil (Castrol 10W40 Dinosaur Bones) and it still happens.
Auto oil? (shudder)

If you can't adjust the clutch for full disengagement, you can try Honda's HP-4 in 10w-40.  That stuff always returns my CN550s to smooth shifting.

If that doesn't help, then you are going to need to take out the clutch, to check for warpage, wear, and correct assembly.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline evanphi

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Re: Grind/Clunk into Second
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2014, 01:59:04 PM »
Everyone knows about the big ol' clunk you get when shifting into first at the start of the day. No biggie.
This is a sign the clutch is dragging.  It's a big deal to me.  As clutch issues lead to transmission and shifter issues.

My problem is that when I shift into second, I get a grinding sound/feeling through the shifter before it locks into second gear.
Takes more time to transition from 1-n-2 than the rest of the gears transitions.  A dragging clutch has more time to drive the gear train and force misalignment.

3-5 are no problem. Am I getting too high in first, causing all the gearing to spin on its own? Adjust the clutch? I just changed the oil (Castrol 10W40 Dinosaur Bones) and it still happens.



Auto oil? (shudder)

If you can't adjust the clutch for full disengagement, you can try Honda's HP-4 in 10w-40.  That stuff always returns my CN550s to smooth shifting.

If that doesn't help, then you are going to need to take out the clutch, to check for warpage, wear, and correct assembly.


Nope. 10W40 Motorcycle oil.

I picked up some 20W50 and I will do an oil change and clutch readjustment tonight.
--Evan

1975 CB750K "Rhonda"
Delkevic Stainless 4-1 Header, Cone Engineering 18" Quiet Core Reverse Cone, K&N Filter in Drilled Airbox
K5 Crankcase/Frame, K4 Head and Cylinders, K1 Carbs (42;120;1 Turn)

She's a mix-matched (former) basket case, but she's mine.

CB750 Shop Manual (all years), searchable text PDF
Calculating the correct input circumference for digital speedometers connected to the original speedometer drive

Offline mcswny

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Re: Grind/Clunk into Second
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2014, 02:03:02 PM »
Everyone knows about the big ol' clunk you get when shifting into first at the start of the day. No biggie.
This is a sign the clutch is dragging.  It's a big deal to me.  As clutch issues lead to transmission and shifter issues.

My problem is that when I shift into second, I get a grinding sound/feeling through the shifter before it locks into second gear.
Takes more time to transition from 1-n-2 than the rest of the gears transitions.  A dragging clutch has more time to drive the gear train and force misalignment.

3-5 are no problem. Am I getting too high in first, causing all the gearing to spin on its own? Adjust the clutch? I just changed the oil (Castrol 10W40 Dinosaur Bones) and it still happens.
Auto oil? (shudder)

If you can't adjust the clutch for full disengagement, you can try Honda's HP-4 in 10w-40.  That stuff always returns my CN550s to smooth shifting.

If that doesn't help, then you are going to need to take out the clutch, to check for warpage, wear, and correct assembly.



Hey Two-Tired, I know there's an extensive post up about getting rid of the first gear clunk and I'm struggling to find it... If you or someone knows how to find it easier, I'd love to bookmark it.

Thanks.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 02:44:13 PM by mcswny »
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Offline Stev-o

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Re: Grind/Clunk into Second
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2014, 02:26:40 PM »
Another oil thread?
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Grind/Clunk into Second
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2014, 05:12:32 PM »
Everyone knows about the big ol' clunk you get when shifting into first at the start of the day. No biggie.
This is a sign the clutch is dragging.  It's a big deal to me.  As clutch issues lead to transmission and shifter issues.

My problem is that when I shift into second, I get a grinding sound/feeling through the shifter before it locks into second gear.
Takes more time to transition from 1-n-2 than the rest of the gears transitions.  A dragging clutch has more time to drive the gear train and force misalignment.

3-5 are no problem. Am I getting too high in first, causing all the gearing to spin on its own? Adjust the clutch? I just changed the oil (Castrol 10W40 Dinosaur Bones) and it still happens.



Auto oil? (shudder)

If you can't adjust the clutch for full disengagement, you can try Honda's HP-4 in 10w-40.  That stuff always returns my CN550s to smooth shifting.

If that doesn't help, then you are going to need to take out the clutch, to check for warpage, wear, and correct assembly.


Nope. 10W40 Motorcycle oil.

I picked up some 20W50 and I will do an oil change and clutch readjustment tonight.

Some of your fellow Canucks in Alberta are using the 15w40 oils with good results, too. It's a good in-betweener choice for cool-weather non-touring use.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline evanphi

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Re: Grind/Clunk into Second
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2014, 05:29:23 PM »
Swapped to 20W50 and adjusted my clutch. Seems to have done the trick, just riding around town. I get to take a long ride to work tomorrow, so I will pay extra attention.
--Evan

1975 CB750K "Rhonda"
Delkevic Stainless 4-1 Header, Cone Engineering 18" Quiet Core Reverse Cone, K&N Filter in Drilled Airbox
K5 Crankcase/Frame, K4 Head and Cylinders, K1 Carbs (42;120;1 Turn)

She's a mix-matched (former) basket case, but she's mine.

CB750 Shop Manual (all years), searchable text PDF
Calculating the correct input circumference for digital speedometers connected to the original speedometer drive

Offline Tsunami

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Re: Grind/Clunk into Second
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2014, 12:26:20 AM »
Well lets hope "Ronda Honda" didn't get him kicked out of the house-
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Grind/Clunk into Second
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2014, 03:18:23 AM »

 In the meantime, if it becomes a nuisance with jumping out of 2nd, just do like many other bikes that suffer this: wind up 1st gear a little more, then double-shift to 3rd. I know at least one chopper rider who did this for many years (12, to be exact) until he sent me his engine. :)

moi aussi  ;D -  for two years or so now.
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Offline eigenvector

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Re: Grind/Clunk into Second
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2014, 08:04:59 AM »
Not to veer this into thread about 'what brand is best', but I actually find 20w50 oil difficult to find anymore.  It's not commonly stocked, certainly in chain stores.
Rob
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Offline flybox1

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Re: Grind/Clunk into Second
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2014, 09:41:04 AM »
Not to veer this into thread about 'what brand is best', but I actually find 20w50 oil difficult to find anymore.  It's not commonly stocked, certainly in chain stores.
eigen...check this out if you havent already.  yes 20w50 is hard to find.  i order mine online.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=138623.msg1566400;topicseen#msg1566400
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Grind/Clunk into Second
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2014, 10:26:17 AM »
Valvoline 40W50 is in Walmarts in our area - for like $4 a bottle.
Prokop
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Offline evanphi

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Re: Grind/Clunk into Second
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2014, 10:53:56 AM »
Not to veer this into thread about 'what brand is best', but I actually find 20w50 oil difficult to find anymore.  It's not commonly stocked, certainly in chain stores.
eigen...check this out if you havent already.  yes 20w50 is hard to find.  i order mine online.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=138623.msg1566400;topicseen#msg1566400


all my local Walmarts have Castrol 20W50 motorcyce oil for around 4$ a Qt.


Also how the hell did this thread get dug up? haha.
--Evan

1975 CB750K "Rhonda"
Delkevic Stainless 4-1 Header, Cone Engineering 18" Quiet Core Reverse Cone, K&N Filter in Drilled Airbox
K5 Crankcase/Frame, K4 Head and Cylinders, K1 Carbs (42;120;1 Turn)

She's a mix-matched (former) basket case, but she's mine.

CB750 Shop Manual (all years), searchable text PDF
Calculating the correct input circumference for digital speedometers connected to the original speedometer drive

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Grind/Clunk into Second
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2014, 09:09:35 PM »
Not to veer this into thread about 'what brand is best', but I actually find 20w50 oil difficult to find anymore.  It's not commonly stocked, certainly in chain stores.
eigen...check this out if you havent already.  yes 20w50 is hard to find.  i order mine online.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=138623.msg1566400;topicseen#msg1566400


all my local Walmarts have Castrol 20W50 motorcyce oil for around 4$ a Qt.


Also how the hell did this thread get dug up? haha.

When you use that stuff, add some zinc, it helps!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com