Topic: 500/550/650's that followed me home

[RAFster122s]

So, you just need a 650 engine to make things get interesting.
Are the 500 enginees problem children for you? Some 500 owners report them to be decent. I guess they haven't experienced the typical problems or they fixed them.
David

[rb550four]

David,
The 500 is a dependable engine, no complaints really,I have a few 500's with a 500 in them, except they don't have as much hp from the factory as the 550 from the factory. I can appreciate the cost/time/energy/funds that others go through to make them go faster.
  But  I have no machine shops that I can trust near by to do a good job/not cost a fortune/ or jack me off for 6 months for my parts to get done.   
  Patience right?   Don't have any,  it's a waist of time and you can't get that back or make more of it.      So I have to go old school, like finding the new and improved stock engine that will fit in the 500/550 frame  , they all fit in either frame with no cutting. That's fantastic! It's allot like when I was a teenager in the 70's trading out the 283 for the 327 then upgrading to the 350. That kind of thing.
 The 550 is the upgrade for the 500, and the 650 is the upgrade for the 550, leaving the 500 engines as spares for those destine to remain 500"s. The 650, well, I have a couple that are intact, one of them is ridden as much as my fave 500, the rest go for the 500/550 upgrade. Sounds terrible right , but no parts are waisted... really ,the frames are all that's left. And being a hoarder, they are in a safe corner in the shop, I don't throw much Honda stuff away...even the unused frames.

[Restoration Fan]

rb,
Do you do anything specific as preventive maintenance for the clutch adjusters/clutch assemblies on your 500's?

Ron

[rb550four]

Ron,
  No , I don't but , I try never to use worn parts anywhere in any engine. All my bikes get new clutches, new cables,new rod if it looks worn, new ball...the entire bottom end sidecover gets taken apart, cleaned, inspected, greased and reassembled to the letter  no matter what at rebuild . I do it by the book each and every time to be sure I didn't miss anything.  That is not to say that I haven't seen  issues on 500's when I break them down, they just haven't reoccurred. Haven't had any problems with any of them......but..... I don't put many miles on them either , most of my machines don't have 50 miles on them yet since rebuilt, and they still get an oil change every year.  My fave 500 that I switch off with might have 1500 + miles on, still, never had any hint of clutch issues. I get the isolated false 3rd once in a while but it's probably operator error.
I suppose if the cables got hard to pull or if the clutch was slipping I would start with the cable ,take apart the bottom end cover, go through it so the grease is all fresh and clean,check the rod and ball. if there was still trouble then springs and clutch discs. The discs are a wearing part, they 're supposed to wear, can't prevent it, only change it when it's worn.
I need to put more miles on these things.

[rb550four]

Took the top end and pistons out of the last flood engine, it's filthy inside, seen worse. Pistons were seized, and it has a brand new cam chain in it that I want. took the tappet cover off removed the one cam bolt that was showing. greasefitting in a sparkplug base in the highest piston....pump,pump,pump around she goes showing me the other cam bolt. doesn't take any time, just messy.
 The pistons looked good, but mucky, there's been a rust ring happening in the cylinders, might hone out but I want to see the cylinders in the other engine first , that engine was never seized or in mud, perhaps that is the better candidate.
will know better soon.

[Stev-o]

Took the top end and pistons out of the last flood engine, it's filthy inside, seen worse. Pistons were seized, and it has a brand new cam chain in it that I want. took the tappet cover off removed the one cam bolt that was showing. greasefitting in a sparkplug base in the highest piston....pump,pump,pump around she goes showing me the other cam bolt. doesn't take any time, just messy.
 

Hey rb....I'm dealing with a stuck motor right now. Been soaking it a week and rocking it regularly, but can't free it up.  The clutch is stuck too, this may have been a flood bike?
Never tried the grease gun method, is that my next step? Or remove clutch first??  Thx.

[rb550four]

StevO,
Grease fitting in cleaned out spark plug is the tool
Take the top off, take the tappet level out so all valves are closed
be sure the rest of the plugs are out
remove the one cam bolt that you can get
pump grease in the cylinder with the highest piston
 start pumping grease into that cylinder,before you can say Bob' your uncle , you'll see the cam starting to rotate...
piston are moving now... take out the next cam bolt, remove cam....no broken parts, now you can take down the top end.

 easy peasy, I gave up on rafter hangings, air hammering, etc... to rough on the motor and the new owner.
I think you'll like this method. it's messy though, but the engine  requires the top end removal and clean up anyways.
                                                                                       

[rb550four]

I like paint thinner allot, I have the kerosene and other toxic mix in the cleaning station for initial cleaning of small parts but,
 it is not healthy for children,
 and other living things



   like a flashback kinda thing, sort of...

[Stev-o]

Thanks for the info, rb.  I now have a modified spark plug, need to get a zerk and have it welded.

Gonna try Kroil [sp?] before the grease gun trick, rather not break this motor down if not necessary.

[rb550four]

Okay....but what happens to all the crud in the rings?

[Stev-o]

Hopefully, the Kroil helps decompose that crud and it drains to oil pan. Get the motor rotating, then rinse with Kerosene, Diesel or such and then fresh oil.

Yes, exactly.  And will expect compression to be low and if doesnt come up, the top end will come off. 

[rb550four]

Cal, I believe in many things, a self cleaning engine isn't one of them.
 Too many possible wearing surfaces like     
                                                            a)  cylinder walls to rings ...wall scoring damage, ring failure ...
                                                            B)  Rust deposits circulating the engine in oil...splashed oil doesn't always get
                                                                         to the filter before it infects something else....like bearings
                                                            C) asking more of the filter and pump when particulates slow the process
Yeah , some guys who are lucky may never have a problem for as long as they own the machine...True
The next owner will find the damage and wonder why ..............................................,,,, also true
do I believe this process significantly shortens the engine life.........................................absolutely
           I believe, that taking the engine down totally, is the only sensible way for me to ensure all is well and clean, and will continue  to be so with proper maintenance. And should I ever sell a machine to anyone else, I can do it with  clear conscience that the possibility of engine failure, will not be from skipping such an important step to resurrecting a damaged  engine.
  But that's just me. All you all do what you want. When it fails I'll find it at a low price on craiglist and tear it all down like I always do. Thanks in advance.

[Stev-o]

rb - my buddy did the Kroil to his stuck engine on his V-Max, got it running well and sold it a year later. The buyer kept in touch with him and said it was the best running bike he has ever had.

I will most likely take it apart but if I can get it running, I will ride!

[rb550four]

Cal, I'm not putting anyone down, especially StevO. I know there are others that believe and practice this very thing and don't do the 3000 mile maint. schedule, have no idea about the engine's condition, run it until they sell it...it's so common.
   You can almost guess who's done this or bought one that had this done just by going to the Sohc 4 bikes section and checking out the repeat problems that we see over and over again.
  Then we get a member from Sweden, buys a bike in California ,ships it all the way home , and it's the same repeat questions that we see over and over and over.....then he breaks it all down and shows us the pictures.... it's unbelievable how many parts get effected. Turns out no matter how hard he tried , that engine was a total turd  in a steel and aluminum form.
   I felt so bad for him, you couldn't waist that many engine parts if you wanted to any other way. I could build an engine out of the parts I wouldn't use and it still would have been better than the one that was in that machine.
 Yes I will admit the chances of failure decrease  if you are as careful as StevO. He has experience and knows what he 's got to do to avoid catastrophic results. But what of all these new guys? They read some of the threads, get bad advise from their  friends that don't know squat and think that all's well and good because they read only the highlights of a thread and don't know what goes on past that ....you know , the little things , the common sense things that we all do and don't write it into our treads.
  Then there are the lazy newbs or the good enoughs that really don't care...too much work...gonna sell it anyway mentality, won't spent much time or effort to find out what else really needs to happen.
  I find this practice worrisome and, if not done correctly or thoroughly, will only reduce the quality of the used machines we all love, to be a worthless venture on machines not worthy of it's price for scrap.
   StevO  and the others that know how to and take care to do this properly , I mean no offence. So please don't take offence.
   If this practice is to continue , I think we need a step by step educational thread in the HOW TO'S SECTION so those who  attempt it will at least be able to do it right. and it's the common sense kinda stuff you won't find in the shop manual really- it's all there in pieces, but not in a continuous offering of self explanatory step by step instruction for the 1st timer .
    Again , my apologies to those who may have been offended.
                                                                                                      RB

[Stev-o]

No offense taken rb, you know these bikes well and always give good advice.

This particular bike is so clean, I am quite shocked that I could not "unstuck" it the first time I rolled it down the drive and popped it in gear. There is no rust on the bike anywhere. I put a new battery in, the ig switch was bad, [typical '78] plugged in a new one and all electrics worked. Chrome is all very good, has orig 4 into 4 exhaust.
Only has 13K miles, that may be the prob, it just sat. Like stated earlier, I will most likely pull it apart, that is the proper thing to do.  'nuff said.....

[riverfever]

My first grand daughter,Stoney.  Yeah, and the ugly guy with the mustache, that's me.

Man, RB I knew you reminded me of someone.

Thats Sam Elliot for those who do not know.

Not sure how I missed this but....it's GOLD. PURE GOLD.

[rb550four]

Got two 500 s close to done, moved them from the shop to make room for the last of the 2. 550 engine to be taken apart . The top ends are off, the clutches are out etc... the only thing left to do is take the bolts out the bottom of both of them and see what we can make out of it all. I found brand new pistons in the unknown engine, I was surprised. don't know what the deal with that engine is yet, none of the gaskets stuck to any of the mating surfaces, head gasket included , it every surface was smooth like it was hit with 1500 grit as a prep. I gonna rough up all those surfaces before it goes back together.the entire engine was covered in motor oil like every gasket failed, lots of carbon on the piston tops like it was running rich. the top end looked good for a change.
  The second motor was in a flood, not the clean kind either. Though the oil was changed the day after in an attempt by a local shop to flush the engine, didn't flush.  There is still thick film of mud on all the horizontal surfaces. For anyone's future information when you drown your bike in a fresh  stream you can change the oil and it'll probably survive fine, if it drowns in a chocolate milk flood.....you have got to break it down, there is no way all that stuff can be flushed out. Even taking it apart , parts still has to be cleaned and blown off twice with care to insure the mud is gone. This engine will probably be made to run again, we'll see.
 

[rb550four]

Took the bolts out the bottom of the cases and had a look see, didn't find anything horrifying, the oil pump and passages cleaned out nicely on the flood motor....I think this one is going back together... the cylinders look a little beat up stained but no eaten away rust rings, feels smooth. Now seems like the perfect time to bore it and install one of those 120 big bore kits....maybe after the other one is complete.
  Haven't had a stretch of time in the garage , been busy at work. Work is just killing my hobby time.

[Restoration Fan]

rb,
How many running bikes do you have now vs. how many projects?

Ron

[rb550four]

I have 2 650's to do over, that's my fave 81 and the first year 650 I got from the junkyard last summer,And an 84 650 that I haven't warmed up to yet,that'll be last
I have to finish the sidecar and mount to the camobike,
Finish up some odds and ends on the last two 500's, saving up for pipes and odds and ends,
and a cosmetic overhaul on the cb175. not real interesting,
3 500 engines to rebuid as spares, the 2 550 engines  going on now,one 550 goes into my fave 500,
  The rest of the herd is finished with the exception of sync on those I won't put gas in because there's just too many carbs to rebuild already.
Then , I'm done.
24 bikes in total, I think that was the last count, 6 of those could use a freshening or other work .... projects,  and 5 spare engines to rebuild.
Something to do.

[Restoration Fan]

Holy crap.  I now have a new hero!

Sounds like a bunch of us need to fly up to New York and let's all take some of your bikes out for a SOHC ride! 

[rb550four]

Oh oh.
   It's only 23, does that help? I forgot that I dismantled the snow bike last month.
I know of at least 1 other member that owns 35 machines and I suspect there are more members that never speak of it. Perhaps they already know what I found out . My hero Adam , made mention of this phenomenon , but didn't go into great detail about it's effect.
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_143803212537911&key=05c870975166525eee12fc837803917a&libId=icmf2x2l01001hye000DA826fq2cd&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.sohc4.net%2Findex.php%2Ftopic%2C114787.msg1293256.html%23msg1293256&v=1&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DyDNkZ7rG9m0%23ws&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.sohc4.net%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Dsearch2&title=CMS%3A%20Portrait%20of%20a%20Builder&txt=Adam%20liberty%20vintage%20cycle%20-%20Adam%20Cramer-%20CAFE%20RACER%20BUILDER%20PHILADELPHIA%2C%20PA.

  Knowing how many you have is truly a detriment. A collector/rebuilder from Philly  Adam  said" I don't know how many bikes I have, if I knew , one day it would sound like too many and the next day that same number wouldn't  be enough".
   That statement alone is true of everything we collect. The actual number of whatever can vary from person to person, but we all have a number , even if we don't know what it is as we go, there is a number that we'll get to where we know we have enough or too many.
    I  know my number ,and I find it disappointing, because it's the end of the run for me,Don't get me wrong , I love this stuff,but, recently something is missing, maybe it's time to focus on something different. The worst is when you suspect,  after you've already passed your number and you go on as you have been doing, and for some nagging reason, things just aren't the same and you can't make it better. You just don't know why until it just hits you one day.
Well , this is why. Best cure, never count your machines, leave  the number of machines you own as an unknown to yourself if you can. That way it may never feel like it's too many.

[rb550four]

It"s Engine time! Finally! Don't have much time this year so I'm pecking at it as  I can.
This was last night , two engine getting broke down , checking and thoroughly cleaning every part and galley in the
Bottom end.

What it looks like now, both bottom ends are clean,tight, painted and going back together.

   Get the pistons and top end in shape , then it's time for the 500 rack.

[rb550four]

So I'm putting the ignition back on , threading in the long 6mm bolt on the end of the spark advance 22mm nut by hand.
I was going to snug it with a socket, never snugged up, in fact it just fell out....The threaded part didn't come out ,
 can't get at it , it's an off center convex break, and the end is a quarter inch deeper than the outer surface,
just perfect for never getting a drill bit on center for an easy out right.
Here's how I got it out for those who put useless information in their memory for just such an occassion
 A simple rivet...back the wire shaft out of it , put the center of the rivet part in the hole on top of the broken bolt shaft,
 A 1/8 left handed drill bit  goes into the hole in the rivet where the wire shaft used to be, drill enough to get a center point,
 Change to a bit less than half the size of the 1/8  bit , drill it into the bolt a quarter of an inch
 Back to the left handed 1/8 bit and before I got to the bottom of the smaller hole the friction from the left handed 1/8 bit
had backed the threaded shank out....Didn't have to use the easy out, Great! Cause everybody knows what happens when
 you chase a hole with an easy out and it breaks.   Just thought I should share.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

That's amazing.  Your own factory line.