Author Topic: weebles wobble  (Read 6346 times)

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Offline Sticky Gerbil

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weebles wobble
« on: May 12, 2014, 05:03:25 AM »
But just sometimes while decelerating.

1980 CB650. The handlebars wobble sometimes when my hands are off the handlebars. It seems to happen more when decelerating. I took the front tire off and brought it to a bike shop; they said it was perfectly balanced. I had em put a new tire on it because it had a ching chang chong tire on it and the guy said the company wasn't allowed to make street tires anymore.

It doesn't do it as reliably anymore; is this normal? What should I do? 

Offline calj737

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Re: weebles wobble
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2014, 05:28:50 AM »
Have you checked the steering bearings? Fork oil? Is the front axle properly torqued and is the tire pressure correct?
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Offline Sticky Gerbil

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Re: weebles wobble
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2014, 06:19:10 AM »
Disclaimer: I am a European car mechanic.

That being said, at the risk of sounding like a moron, how do I check the steering bearings? How do I check the fork oil?

Tire pressure is perfect. What is the proper torque for the front axle (I am assuming you mean the two nuts on each fork end)? I used the German torque spec, "gutentight".

Offline calj737

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Re: weebles wobble
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2014, 06:43:01 AM »
The steering bearings occur in 2 places: directly beneath the top clamp inside the steering stem, and at the bottom of the stem inside, above the lower clamp. Originally they were ball bearings in races lubricated by thick grease. Over time, the grease dries out, and the bearings flatten or get "notchy" feeling.

Proper maintenance is to remove the upper clamp and the slide the stem out. Re-lubricate the bearings and re-install the stem. The stem needs to be tightened properly with some "lash".

To determine if your bearings are at fault, secure the bike on center stand, and grab the forks near the lowers. Pull forward and push back. There should be essentially no movement. Also, try racking the forks (pulling one, pushing the other). There should be no lateral movement either. (Technically there is movement, but by hand, you should not be able to initiate it).

If you've owned the bike for several years, then likely the steering bearings are in disrepair and should be greased. Many replace them with new tapered bearings instead as an "upgrade". To do this, remove the balls and races. The races will need to driven out with a punch or drift, top comes out "up" lower goes out "down". Takes a long drift to pass thru the steering head.

Not sure on your model, but the axle clamp (bottom of fork) should have an embossed "dot". That goes forward and actually creates a larger gap to the rear between the clamp and the fork. Snap a picture up close of your axles on both sides and post it up. Or, look underneath carefully and see if there is a "dot" and whether it's oriented forward.

"Gutentight" is probably "gutenuf" as long as you used the proper washers during installation.

Are the front forks stock length? If they are longer than stock, this will contribute to more oscillation and thereby a "wobbly" feel while less pressure and control is on the steering. You mentioned a recent tire replacement, that sounds like a great idea as tires over time become "flat spotted" in the bike is ridden normally straight. I always replace tires every 5 years, perhaps overkill. But I always have great steering and handling as a result.

My logic: tire is only piece of equipment in contact with road and thus is THE most important piece of safety gear.

Fork oil: there should be a drain bolt on the lower fork, probably on the outside of the leg. This will allow you to drain the oil. Bet it needs it badly. To replace, remove the fork top nut (carefully, there should be a spring inside that will need to be compressed during installation). Fill the fork with proper grade and volume (you can find this data in the manual). During draining, press the forks down to aide in expulsion of the fluid.

Some last things to check: the top nut on your steering clamps. Is it properly snugged and are the fork tube clamps (upper and lower) properly tightened? You don't provide much background on the ownership of the bike, so if you're behind on the maintenance intervals, all these items require attention.

If you're an auto mechanic, then you know all too well vehicles driven less frequently get overlooked more than daily drivers. We don't log mileage as closely and tend to put off maintenance under the guise of "I haven't driven it very much, it should be fine". On a vintage bike, this is quite dangerous. Any motorcycle requires strict attention to maintenance, more so than a car. Cars have redundant systems for safety, bikes do not. Spend the time going through the entire 3,000 mile service interval and be 100% all things are up to snuff. "Gutensnuff" that is.
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: weebles wobble
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2014, 07:06:39 AM »
Quote
The handlebars wobble sometimes when my hands are off the handlebars.

At some speed it is normal. At any speed it is not.
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Offline Stev-o

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Re: weebles wobble
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2014, 07:11:48 AM »
Cal has given you some good advice, but I would go one step further: upgrade your stem ball bearings to tapered roller bearings.

Do you have a front fender?
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Offline calj737

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Re: weebles wobble
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2014, 07:16:27 AM »
I gave him that advice too...  :-[ probably got lost in the dissertation...
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline juliorice

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Re: weebles wobble
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2014, 07:36:52 AM »
I agree with everything that has been said.  I chased a wobble problem exactly as you describe.  Fine on acceleration, would show up on decel.  Turned out to be loose spokes on the rear wheel.  Just something else to check.  Good luck.  Julio

Offline BobbyR

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Re: weebles wobble
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2014, 07:43:45 AM »
But just sometimes while decelerating.

1980 CB650. The handlebars wobble sometimes when my hands are off the handlebars. It seems to happen more when decelerating. I took the front tire off and brought it to a bike shop; they said it was perfectly balanced. I had em put a new tire on it because it had a ching chang chong tire on it and the guy said the company wasn't allowed to make street tires anymore.

It doesn't do it as reliably anymore; is this normal? What should I do?

Please do check everthing mentioned here.  If you are using the tire pressures on the Honda sticker you can get a deceleration wobble. Modern tires are built differently today and require more pressure. Go up 10 lbs if you are at the sticker pressure and then lower it till the bike feels good to you. 
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Offline jamesbekman

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Re: weebles wobble
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2014, 08:39:30 AM »
What does "European car mechanic" mean exactly? 

Offline Deltarider

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Re: weebles wobble
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2014, 08:44:28 AM »
Quote
Turned out to be loose spokes on the rear wheel.  Just something else to check.

Actually most 'unrest' at the front originates from the rear.
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Offline Sticky Gerbil

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Re: weebles wobble
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2014, 10:26:22 AM »
James: European car mechanic means I don't know that much about things that are not European cars, that is, until I completely disassemble them.

Cal: great response. I know nothing about the bike. I bought it from a cl trader. Thanks for all the suggestions I will try them all. Front tire is like 4 days old, the rear one is a coupla months old. Front tire is a Dunlop. Forks as far as I can tell are stock length. Bike is a daily driver now; doubt it was before. My model had an arrow --> for forward on the lower fork cap. It is correctly oriented. I will drain the oil in the forks and flush them if possible.

Stev-o: I have a front fender.

Julio: I assume you are talking about zillion spoke wheels. Mine are the black and silver star looking ones. Also, it only does it at times on decel, not reliably.

Bobby: I have no stickers as my bike is ghetto fabulous. I keep the tires at 40psi.

Offline 750K

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Re: weebles wobble
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2014, 11:03:27 AM »
Don't overlook your swing arm bushing as well, if the bushing is worn or the swing arm bolt is loose it can result in a wobble at times. My wife's cb400t hab a wobble going into a left hand turn, PO didnt torque the swingarm bolt to spec. That solved the issue.
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Offline PeWe

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Re: weebles wobble
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2014, 11:56:18 AM »
Bad/not tightened bearings in front can also be identified by braking hard with handbrake. But just a short brake, multiple times after each other. You will feel eventual play between fork and frame.  Possible when rolling the bike slowly without engine running.

One more thing is steering damper.
I mounted one for many years ago so I might have forgotten this kind of wobble.
I think I have this  wobble  when I had forgotten to set the damper to harder setting which is the normal.

Or when the wight balance is displaced to the rear.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 11:59:47 AM by PeWe »
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Offline Sticky Gerbil

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Re: weebles wobble
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2014, 04:45:01 PM »
So I took the bike out for a ride today on the interstate, which sucks. Tested for a wobble at all speeds and such, seems to only be reproducable at a medium engine decel around 40 ish. What the hell.

Offline BobbyR

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Re: weebles wobble
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2014, 05:52:07 PM »
So I took the bike out for a ride today on the interstate, which sucks. Tested for a wobble at all speeds and such, seems to only be reproducable at a medium engine decel around 40 ish. What the hell.
If you do a search the wobbles come in on deceleration at around 40 or so. In my case it was low air pressure but you covered that.
You can take a spanner wrench and tighten down the steering head bearing. It can be a band aid or a diagnostic.  On the center stand the steering head bearing will want to center forks, due to a flat spot that develops over time. Steering head bearings only rotate a few degrees so they get a flat rather than wear out.   
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: weebles wobble
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2014, 07:29:52 PM »
If you're a mechanic then you will know how to tighten wheel bearings, do the same to the steering head bearings, check wheel for straightness, check wheel bearings and all mounts, make sure the forks are clamped tight, check swingarm bushes and rear wheel bearings and also the condition of the rear wheel and shocks, all can contribute to a wobble...
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Offline Sticky Gerbil

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Re: weebles wobble
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2014, 10:57:08 AM »
Gonna check rear bushings and steering head tonight. Rear wheel is fine . Rear shocks are 3 months old and set at a medium setting. No ply in rear wheel bearings. Will post results.

Offline Sticky Gerbil

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Re: weebles wobble
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2014, 04:09:05 PM »
So I tightened the steering head, and the problem seemed to be the sameish. Checked the swing arm bushings- the swing arm slides back and forth, which I am assuming means the bushings are trash. Where to get them?

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Re: weebles wobble
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2014, 04:11:38 PM »
So I tightened the steering head, and the problem seemed to be the sameish. Checked the swing arm bushings- the swing arm slides back and forth, which I am assuming means the bushings are trash. Where to get them?

That could be your problem right there, do a forum search for Hondaman, {Mark Paris} he sells the best oilite brass bushes, he will also rebuild your swingarm completely if that what you want... ;)
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Offline ofreen

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Re: weebles wobble
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2014, 04:30:44 PM »


 The handlebars wobble sometimes when my hands are off the handlebars.  What should I do?

Here is part of the answer -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCh7z5EwYF8

 ;)
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 09:49:32 PM by ofreen »
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Offline Sticky Gerbil

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Re: weebles wobble
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2014, 04:36:57 PM »
No.

Offline ofreen

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Re: weebles wobble
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2014, 05:32:02 PM »
Deceleration wobble beginning between 50-40 mph is very, very common.  It can happen with any style of bike. Even a bike with everything in correct adjustment and appropriate tire pressure may do it, especially as a front tire wears.  You need to fix those swingarm bearings, but even after you do, you may have the wobble.  Every bike I've had from dirt bikes, dual sports, sport bikes and standard bikes have all done it to some extent.  Ask a Gold Wing owner of any vintage (bike, not rider) about deceleration wobble.

The advice the Hee Haw doc gave is valid.  If it wobbles when you take your hands off the bars, then don't do that. 
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Offline Stev-o

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Re: weebles wobble
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2014, 06:34:21 PM »


 The handlebars wobble sometimes when my hands are off the handlebars.  What should I do?

Here is part of the answer -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCh7z5EwYF8

 ;)

Good one Greg!
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Offline Sticky Gerbil

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Re: weebles wobble
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2014, 07:24:53 PM »
That doesn't make sense. That's like me saying to you, oh, sorry, your car is old so there's nothing I can do to help you with an oil leak. Or hey buddy, sorry about that suspension noise just turn the radio up cause I suck at my job.

Clearly there is a problem here if the bike didn't exhibit this issue before. Accepting a dangerous condition is stupid advice. I will continue my diagnostic and repair until the #$%*ing wobble is gone, not just turn my mental stereo up.