Author Topic: CB550 - Issues for beginning rider - Help please!  (Read 24514 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Koonendez

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 139
CB550 - Issues for beginning rider - Help please!
« on: May 12, 2014, 06:09:37 AM »
Alright so I'd like to start by trying to give as much information about the bike as possible, but please understand that I had outsourced all the work on the rebuild because I didn't have the time to do any of the work myself while I was working. I have since changed jobs and have much more free time on my hands so that I can begin to really learn about this bike as I go through the process of repairing issues.

The bike is a 1978 CB550K8. Stripped down to frame and completely rebuilt with mostly stock components. The bike is using Carbs off a 1976 and an intake manifold off a 1975 550. The "builder" replaced my airbox with Pod filters. I have OEM electronics on the bike. If you ask me what size jets I have no idea as I have never taken them completely apart myself other than when I stripped the bike down to frame to powdercoat.

Condition: The bike runs...in fact I've been riding it around town as well as commuting to work the past few days when weather permits. The bike will not sit idle without me holding the throttle very lightly. It will bog down and die everytime even when warmed up. I notice some days or at some times theres a lot of black smoke shooting out the exhaust. I have had two strangers tell me I'm running "rich" but do not know what that means or what to do about it. The exhaust is a 4-1 MAC that has been cut short just beneath my right foot. The engine also gets stuck in high revs while riding or in neutral after downshifting. It will get stuck around 3-4K revs and then drop to almost shut off unless I hold revs up at 1500.  I have the IMS turned out 2 full turns from sitting position and I have no idea where the "big idle screw" is in relation to where it should be because I keep turning the damn thing hoping that it will help with the idle and rev issues.

What have I done so far?: Not much unfortunately. I have used some Seafoam in the tank to see if that would help resolve any issues and it doesn't seem to have corrected much although I'm sure its cleaning something in there. I barely have any tools right now, don't have a garage as I live in the city, but these are all excuses I am ready to put behind me to get this bike in GREAT running condition.

Please help! Give me something I can walk through step by step to diagnose the issue and resolve it. Please understand that even the 3000 mile maintenance checklist is something I've already looked at and considered to be daunting. But am willing to do what I need. Removing the carbs and opening them up would be the last step I'd like to do in this investigation as it would take me a LONG time to learn that process and I need my bike running for work. Sorry that I suck at all this and the info is vague, but I'm ready to try and answer any questions to the best of my ability and get my hands dirty as needed. Thanks in advance to all you guys with your help.

Koon
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 06:15:37 AM by Koonendez »
'78 Honda CB550K

Offline lucky

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,715
Re: CB550 - Issues for beginning rider - Help please!
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2014, 06:35:19 AM »
Since you are a beginner you really need to get some expert help.
No motorcycle shop is likely to be able to help you.

With POD filters and stock jets and cut off exhaust it will NEVER run right.

The good news is the 1976 carbs are less complicated because they do not have the accelerator pump system added on. The slide needle is also adjustable.

With out knowing the size of the IDLE JET .MAIN JET, and slide needle position, you will never get  the motorcycle to run correctly.

The best thing to do is buy the stock air filter box and stock air filter.
Put some shorty mufflers on it at least to make some back pressure.

You need to get some help in your area.
Do not go back to the person that set this motorcycle up.

Offline Stev-o

  • Ain't no
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 34,512
  • Central Texas
Re: CB550 - Issues for beginning rider - Help please!
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2014, 06:42:33 AM »
You may have multiple issues. Installing pods and cutting off the exhaust creates a bike that can be hard to tune, but not impossible.

If you paid this "builder", why dont you bring it back and have them tune it?
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline Koonendez

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 139
Re: CB550 - Issues for beginning rider - Help please!
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2014, 06:47:53 AM »
Lucky: The exhaust is not completely cut wide open as it does have a fabricated tip creating back pressure or at least some. The cut end is covered and has large holes drilled through if that gives you a visual. I have already spent a lot of money on this project and buying new exhaust, replacement airbox, and necessary components is a road I'd like to avoid as much as possible. Not to say I won't do it if necessary, but I'd like to see if I can tune and correct these issues with the current setup that is already on.

Stev-o: Thank you for your optimism and I'm glad to hear there's some hope. I have lost all trust in the builder and would rather not see his face ever again if possible. He blew my budget completely out of order and lost trust in me.

Thanks for replies guys!
Koon
'78 Honda CB550K

Offline Koonendez

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 139
Re: CB550 - Issues for beginning rider - Help please!
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2014, 07:10:31 AM »
calj737: Thanks for the reply. I forgot to mention my other woes with services as I had also recently had my bike serviced by another person, but to no despair the issues are not of his fault because he simply serviced my bike to get the engine back up and running. The first "builder" had it running but only for a day. The bike did not start up again after I brought it back home. Not sure exactly what the issue was, but after shoveling out more cash the bike is finally in running condition, but not well at all. I am done spending money out to others and would like to begin trying to service this bike myself so that I am not fully aware of what the issues are when more problems occur down the line.

I will begin with the basics first. I am heading to a parts store today to try and replace my inline fuel filter which seems to have some rust sediment built up in the filter and buy a spark plug socket to pull them and check to see what their condition is. I will also look in the Clymer for a list of tools needed to pull the carbs off the bike as I have a week ahead of rain and more rain so the bike will be sitting anyhow. A few days I hope will give me enough time to take apart these carbs and give them a cleaning(which I will have to search this forum for to see what a proper cleaning is). I will begin to take photos and post them up through this process.

Thank you guys in advance for your patience and help through this process. Even with all the woes and issues I am still very excited about owning this bike and seeing it everyday. I cannot wait to have this beauty running the way she outta be.

Koon
'78 Honda CB550K

Offline Stev-o

  • Ain't no
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 34,512
  • Central Texas
Re: CB550 - Issues for beginning rider - Help please!
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2014, 07:16:42 AM »
A rusty tank will give you issues and many guys have had issues with inline filters, personally, I would not use one.

Drain some fuel out of your tank into a glass jar to see how clean it is.

Pulling the carbs is a good first step, it is not difficult. All you need is a wrench and a philips screwdriver.
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline Koonendez

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 139
Re: CB550 - Issues for beginning rider - Help please!
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2014, 10:49:01 AM »
Thanks for all the help already. I'll shoot a video today with the bike running and post it ASAP so that you all can get a better idea of what I'm working with and possibly diagnose the obvious issues first and foremost. Will post it up today.
'78 Honda CB550K

Offline Koonendez

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 139
Re: CB550 - Issues for beginning rider - Help please!
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2014, 11:52:14 AM »


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
'78 Honda CB550K

Offline Koonendez

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 139
Re: CB550 - Issues for beginning rider - Help please!
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2014, 11:53:08 AM »
Sorry didn't see your reply before posting and taking video. Hope the video helps


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
'78 Honda CB550K

Offline Koonendez

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 139
Re: CB550 - Issues for beginning rider - Help please!
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2014, 12:04:34 PM »
I didn't adjust the choke at all. In fact I've been riding it that way as it's the only way the bike will remain on. If I adjust the choke at all the bike shuts down


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
'78 Honda CB550K

Offline Koonendez

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 139
Re: CB550 - Issues for beginning rider - Help please!
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2014, 03:16:47 PM »
Thanks. I went to an auto parts store today but couldn't find a thin walled 18mm spark plug socket so I went to a Honda dealership and asked the parts department who told me they cannot order me any tools unless its for the use of the dealership.

Anyone know if Sears Auto centers will carry the parts needed? Also I am not familiar with that technique. Also, where can I find the spark plugs for these bikes? Would any auto parts store carry them? I will try and pull off carbs this Wednesday and get to dismantling them to the best of my ability. I assume I will need to remove the tank completely before I can pull carbs so I will empty the tank and look into a rust removal system and re-line the inside of the tank.
'78 Honda CB550K

Offline Stev-o

  • Ain't no
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 34,512
  • Central Texas
Re: CB550 - Issues for beginning rider - Help please!
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2014, 03:41:18 PM »
I didn't adjust the choke at all.

The choke is in the off position. After warmed up, it shouldnt run with choke.

Try adjusting the idle to 1500 after warmed up for at least five minutes.
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline Bankerdanny

  • Eventually I will be old enough in reality to be
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,623
  • Endeavor to persevere
Re: CB550 - Issues for beginning rider - Help please!
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2014, 03:53:05 PM »
The '76 carbs don't have a fast idle cam like the 77-78 PD series carbs do. So you need to use the throttle to keep the bike running until it is warm enought to run without the choke.

Check the condition of the rubbers that connect the carb to the manifold and did you replace the o-rings that help seal the manifolds to the head? Vacuum leaks could cause the bike to run very lean and not want to idle or run well without choke.
"The problem with quotes on the Internet is that you never know if they're true" - Abraham Lincoln

Current: '76 CB750F. Previous:  '75 CB550F, 2007 Yamaha Vino 125 Scooter, '75 Harley FXE Superglide, '77 GL1000, '77 CB550k, '68 Suzuki K10 80, '68 Yamaha YR2, '69 BMW R69S, '71 Honda SL175, '02 Royal Enfield Bullet 500, '89 Yamaha FJ1200

Offline Koonendez

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 139
Re: CB550 - Issues for beginning rider - Help please!
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2014, 05:20:47 PM »
Stev-o: So can we clarify that the bike should or shouldn't be running in the position that I have the choke set on in the video? When I move the choke lever up even after the engine is warmed up the engine cuts off and dies

Bankerdanny: there are some days I fire up the engine and it idles at 900-1000. Some days like today it won't even idle unless I'm holding the throttle. I'm going to take carbs off and buy rebuild kits for each carb replacing all four O-rings as well as I'm unsure of whether or not they've been changed


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
'78 Honda CB550K

Offline Stev-o

  • Ain't no
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 34,512
  • Central Texas
Re: CB550 - Issues for beginning rider - Help please!
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2014, 05:50:29 PM »
Stev-o: So can we clarify that the bike should or shouldn't be running in the position that I have the choke set on in the video? When I move the choke lever up even after the engine is warmed up the engine cuts off and dies


The bike should be run in the position shown in the video (choke off).

Choke is only used when starting a cold motor. 
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline bender01

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,861
  • "Follow the leader.He's on a Honda"
75 550 K1
74 750 K4
1968 450 K1 Super Sport
74 750k 836 project
http://www.bikepics.com/members/bender01/
So, the strategy is to lie to people you are asking for help?

I think I'll be busy going for a ride.

Good luck!
Two Tired Quote !


Offline Koonendez

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 139
Re: CB550 - Issues for beginning rider - Help please!
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2014, 07:07:44 PM »
Thanks for clarifying. I was really nervous for a moment there thinking this was a much more serious issue.

Plan is to remove gas from tank and inspect for major sediment or rust. If necessary re-line the tank. Pull carbs and rebuild with kits and replace O-rings. Then I'll check timing and spark. I also will replace inline fuel filter just to be cautious


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
'78 Honda CB550K

Offline Stev-o

  • Ain't no
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 34,512
  • Central Texas
Re: CB550 - Issues for beginning rider - Help please!
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2014, 07:22:42 PM »
Pull your petcock, it should have a filter, an inline is not necessary and may hinder fuel flow. 

I know it's a sore subject, but what exactly did the "builder" do.  I saw the video, I see a stock bike with aftermarket bars, rear seats and gauges.  Not much "building" there.
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline Koonendez

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 139
Re: CB550 - Issues for beginning rider - Help please!
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2014, 07:37:15 PM »
The bike was down to frame for several years and he put the bike back together with of few of his own touches combined with parts I had bought and sent to him. It did not end well as a budget that was set was completely neglected and did not inform of the adding costs he was placing on the bill. Doubled the budget given.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
'78 Honda CB550K

Offline seanbarney41

  • not really that much younger than an
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,931
Re: CB550 - Issues for beginning rider - Help please!
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2014, 07:56:10 PM »
I don't think the bike is running on all 4 cylinders.  Find which cylinder by spraying exhaust header pipes  with water...the pipe that doesn't instantly vaporize the water goes to the cylinder that is not firing.
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,802
Re: CB550 - Issues for beginning rider - Help please!
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2014, 08:50:29 PM »
The 78 tank has a filter which inserts into the bung that the fuel tap is mounted upon.  It can be a real b!tch to remove, and even harder to remove it intact, particularly if cemented in with rust.  That filter works very well when undamaged, though.  However, I have a feeling the builder bent you over the workbench and took liberties with many of the details needing to be addressed on this bike.

I'm not very impressed with your builder.  But, it seems you specified a "look" and expected him to sort out all the changes from stock, as well as the adjustment changes required to make these parts function well together.  I think you got an assembler, rather than a mechanic.
Honda had a team of engineers and technicians contributing 1000's of man hours into making a well rounded and reliable street bike.  Changing the looks toward that of a race bike, means an equivalent amount of man hours to make it work nearly as well at the factory techs did.  Unlikely you paid him enough to do that, even if he had that capacity.  But of course, I'm just guessing.

This is just to give you a flavor of what you can look forward to as far as a learning curve is concerned.  The only functional "recipe" for a bike that behaves as it should is the factory specs., which would be the most direct and easiest way to make the bike imminently streetable.

With no tools, no place to work, and no real knowledge of what you have or how it is supposed to work, you are pushing a rather large rock up a steep hill.  Yes, it is doable, with persistence, patience and perseverance.

Easier to modify something that already works, than to cajole a crude assemblage of parts into a well rounded and balanced machine.

I did listen to the video.
You really should get the Honda shop manual with supplements.  Yes, you can still drag the answers from us, once you learn the correct questions to ask.  It will at least tell you where the idle speed adjust knob is located.   ;D

I question if all cylinders are firing.  Check for cold(er) head pipes.  They can tell you if all the jugs are contributing something.
I don't really care if you paid someone else to do a tune up.  Until you do the 3K schedule yourself, you will never know if it was performed properly and completely.

Drain each carb bowl, catch the drainage, and examine for sediment.  If found, you must locate the source and fix that.  Clean carbs won't stay that way with a constant source of crud.
With the pods and pipe, you WILL have to learn what the pilot jet, main jet, and slide needles are set to. (Unless you trust your builder to have made these corrections for you.)

Got a vacuum balance apparatus?  You are going to need one with all the carb adjustments coming in the near future.  Also, you will need access to either a Dynamometer, or a test track to make full power acceleration runs.  This and learning to read spark plugs will help you find the correct main jet for your mods.  You wanted a race bike?  They just don't come into being with simply an assemblage of parts.  They are tweaked many times over.

It can be a fun and highly educational hobby, or a living nightmare.  Either way, it will interfere with your desire to "just go for a ride".  Be prepared.

If this bike is to be your "main ride", you will learn to hate it in very short order, I expect.  Or, get very smart and savvy about it, very quickly.

Good luck!
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline BeSeeingYou

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,913
Re: CB550 - Issues for beginning rider - Help please!
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2014, 09:05:32 PM »
I think this bike has been so badly executed by the "Builder"::) that you need to just start over from square one.  Cleaning the tank is a start...but are you saying the tank has a liner in it?  Is it failing....putting a another liner kit in is not going to solve anything unless it is done 100% correctly.  I don't know that you have the skill set or the facilities to do this properly.   Why is the liner there in the first place?  If the tank is solid there is absolutely no reason to have a liner.  Get rid if the inline fuel filter and get the proper petcock filter and keep your tank clean and you should not have any issues.  Inline filters are for lazy people who can't be bothered to keep their tank clean.  Get the stock airbox back on and a proper exhaust system...it will be faster and cheaper in the long run for getting this bike to run properly.  Again I don't know that you have the skill set to get it to run properly with those #$%*ty pods and hacked up exhaust.  Do you have a detailed list of what the "Builder" ::) did and what parts were installed/provided?  Does it still have the original points ignition or an after market electronic kit?  If you have gas leaking from the carbs it tells me the needle valves or float level needs attention.   Before you go ordering carb rebuild kits get yours apart so you know what you have to start with.  The brass parts don't wear out that much and often the original stock stuff is better than aftermarket rebuild kits.  You need to get back to a known baseline with jetting, needle position, mixture screw settings, timing, etc.  Right now it seems things may be so fuked up that all you will be doing is chasing your tail trying one thing after another.   You need to go on a steep learning curve cause paying somebody else to do this work is going to cost way more than the bike will ever be worth.  If you want to run one of these old bikes you need to be able to maintain/repair it yourself or it will break the bank and be in the shop half the time.  You didn't think owning an old "Cafe Racer" was going to be easy did you? ;) ;D
    Just from the video you posted I had to wonder "what the fuk did the "Builder" do to warrant a large payment from you.  Sorry about the tough love but that guy needs his ass kicked. ;D

« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 09:16:08 PM by srust58 »

Online dave500

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 17,092
  • WHAT?no gravy?
Re: CB550 - Issues for beginning rider - Help please!
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2014, 11:03:03 PM »
"Thanks. I went to an auto parts store today but couldn't find a thin walled 18mm spark plug socket so I went to a Honda dealership and asked the parts department who told me they cannot order me any tools unless its for the use of the dealership"

don't go there again,its only a #$%*ing spark plug socket!i have genuine Honda service tools ive bought.

Offline Koonendez

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 139
Re: CB550 - Issues for beginning rider - Help please!
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2014, 06:21:11 AM »
Seanbarney41: I will check the heat of the exhausts on each cylinder this afternoon. Thanks

Twotired: Thanks first of all for chiming in as I very much appreciate your knowledge and experience with these bikes. I will be pulling the tank and inspecting for damage and rust and will post pictures of the inside the best I can. I understand fully the mountain I have to climb, but I am willing to do what it takes no matter the difficulties that lie ahead. I appreciate your concern, but I assure you I am up for the challenge. I have a Clymer manual and will begin the 3K tune-up along with tank inspection and carb  inspection. I will get you guys carb info as soon as I can tear into them and post pictures up. Is there a way to drain the carbs with them in tact on the bike? Or do I completely remove the carbs before I can drain them individually to check for sediment? No access to dyno or test track, but not exactly looking to build a race bike. Please understand that because I put clip-ons and rearsets doesn't mean I'm trying to build a rocket here. The original rearset position wasn't any good for me as I rode my friends bone stock 550 and had trouble with my feet when it came to shifting. And yes, I'm sorry but I personally didn't like the style of the stock handle bars. This is my main mode of transportation during warm months so yes, I expect to tackle this as fast as I can, but with care and precision.

srust58: The tank is not lined, I simply assumed that I would check for any serious issues and if needed would line the tank or treat it with one of the many options available. I will remove the inline filter once I'm comfortable with the condition of the tank although I have heard two sides to the story about inline fuel filters on this board. I have most of the stock airbox components still(this was one of the decisions the "assembler" took upon himself to modify without discussion) and will purchase the rest of the necessary components to get it back to stock. The concern I have is that my stock airbox components are for the 78, but my carbs are off a 76 and my intake manifold off a 75. Hopefully there won't be any issues otherwise I will look for a stock airbox for a 74-76 550. I'll also look into an affordable exhaust system, but I wonder if any necessary parts were shaved off where the exhaust would be bolted up against the frame. It is still running on points. The leak is a first since I've been riding it for about two weeks and will pull carbs anyhow to see what's going on in there.

dave500: Are you suggesting I try another Honda dealership?

Guys, I appreciate all the feedback. I know there is a ton of work to do and I hope I am not coming across like some young guy who expects to turn a few screws here and there and be done with this. By no means did I ever think this was going to a turn key project even after the assembly work was done. I bought this bike, over the 1000s of motorcycle selections available for a reason. I consider myself a young person and appreciate these bikes very much. You don't need to drill into me the negativity because I'm well aware these bikes will have issues. I bought this bike to have fun and enjoy them for what they are. Even the work that gets involved in owning them. This forum is supposed to be a support for me, not a reminder that I bought an old bike and that everything is going to suck from here. If you want to help me get this girl running the way she outta be (stock or modified), then please chime in and ask me the right questions. I will do everything I can to take photos, videos, to help you guys get the answers to help me build her back up. Thanks in advance to everyone sharing their knowledge with me
'78 Honda CB550K